Ich/velvet in mandarin.

[Australian_Reef]

A very atypical (for me at least) presentation on ich in a my holding tank ( 70g, fish under observation before being moved to display). I had been keeping the holding tank at 1.020. No new fish had been added for 3-4 months.

I thought I was ready to add these to the new display so I upped salinity to 1.025 over two weeks and also added some sps frags. Over a week or so each fish started with the spots like velvet…. It was so subtle I couldn’t decide if it was or not. But nothing died quickly like i’d expect with velvet. Like powdered sugar not the big white spots but no mortality, so I reallyI don’t know if ich or velvet. Only in certain light angles would it show. I moved the bulk of the tank to a hospital tank and they are under copper power 2.3ppm for a week now with no problems. No fatalities at all, not what I would expect from a velvet infection.

I left in the tank a mandarin and two tank bred clowns as I had limited hospital space and these were asymptomatic.

Now they are not. The clowns are acting fine but in the right light you can see the powdered sugar spots. They can go under copper in a few days no problem. The mandarin looks awful. If anyone says a mandarin can’t catch ich or velvet they are wrong.

My question is what can I do to help this guy. I can’t get CP. I have H2O2 on hand and I can’t get Meth Blue. But otherwise I don’t know. Apologies for picture quality they were the best I could get.

 

[W31Olds]

The fish Medics need more information, and your post is confusing. You are using CP to treat the Hospital Tank but cannot get it for the Mandarin? What other Fish do you have? Also, not completely sure your Mandarin has Ich. Is he eating?

 

[vetteguy53081]

A very atypical (for me at least) presentation on ich in a my holding tank ( 70g, fish under observation before being moved to display). I had been keeping the holding tank at 1.020. No new fish had been added for 3-4 months.

I thought I was ready to add these to the new display so I upped salinity to 1.025 over two weeks and also added some sps frags. Over a week or so each fish started with the spots like velvet…. It was so subtle I couldn’t decide if it was or not. But nothing died quickly like i’d expect with velvet. Like powdered sugar not the big white spots but no mortality, so I reallyI don’t know if ich or velvet. Only in certain light angles would it show. I moved the bulk of the tank to a hospital tank and they are under copper power 2.3ppm for a week now with no problems. No fatalities at all, not what I would expect from a velvet infection.

I left in the tank a mandarin and two tank bred clowns as I had limited hospital space and these were asymptomatic.

Now they are not. The clowns are acting fine but in the right light you can see the powdered sugar spots. They can go under copper in a few days no problem. The mandarin looks awful. If anyone says a mandarin can’t catch ich or velvet they are wrong.

My question is what can I do to help this guy. I can’t get CP. I have H2O2 on hand and I can’t get Meth Blue. But otherwise I don’t know. Apologies for picture quality they were the best I could get.

Its rare they get ich but do get flukes which this appears to be. For both , you can utilize chloroquine phosphate at 10mg/L for two weeks and its safe for pods at this concentration so fish can eat

 

[MnFish1]

A very atypical (for me at least) presentation on ich in a my holding tank ( 70g, fish under observation before being moved to display). I had been keeping the holding tank at 1.020. No new fish had been added for 3-4 months.

There would be no difference between a holding tank and a display tank if a fish with a parasite was introduced - The fish probably had the 'illness' before entering the tank. a salinity of 1.020 may slow down certain parasites (Ich yes, velvet no) - but will not kill or really affect them at all - so you may as well keep it at 1.025.

I thought I was ready to add these to the new display so I upped salinity to 1.025 over two weeks and also added some sps frags. Over a week or so each fish started with the spots like velvet….

Marine fish present with breathing and other symptoms with velvet - not spots, and not the dusty appearance seen with Fresh water fish

It was so subtle I couldn’t decide if it was or not. But nothing died quickly like i’d expect with velvet. Like powdered sugar not the big white spots but no mortality, so I reallyI don’t know if ich or velvet.

Very likely ich

Only in certain light angles would it show. I moved the bulk of the tank to a hospital tank and they are under copper power 2.3ppm for a week now with no problems. No fatalities at all, not what I would expect from a velvet infection.

Great

I left in the tank a mandarin and two tank bred clowns as I had limited hospital space and these were asymptomatic.

Now they are not. The clowns are acting fine but in the right light you can see the powdered sugar spots. They can go under copper in a few days no problem. The mandarin looks awful. If anyone says a mandarin can’t catch ich or velvet they are wrong.

I would treat them as you are the rest of the fish. Mandarins do not 'catch' ich often - but they can.

My question is what can I do to help this guy. I can’t get CP. I have H2O2 on hand and I can’t get Meth Blue. But otherwise I don’t know. Apologies for picture quality they were the best I could get.

I do not think there is a benefit to H2o2 or methylene blue. What copper are you using now? I would use the same one. Otherwise - unless you're not planning to keep the mandarin with the other fish you will have problems.

 

[MnFish1]

A very atypical (for me at least) presentation on ich in a my holding tank ( 70g, fish under observation before being moved to display). I had been keeping the holding tank at 1.020. No new fish had been added for 3-4 months.

There would be no difference between a holding tank and a display tank if a fish with a parasite was introduced - The fish probably had the 'illness' before entering the tank. a salinity of 1.020 may slow down certain parasites (Ich yes, velvet no) - but will not kill or really affect them at all - so you may as well keep it at 1.025.

I thought I was ready to add these to the new display so I upped salinity to 1.025 over two weeks and also added some sps frags. Over a week or so each fish started with the spots like velvet….

Marine fish present with breathing and other symptoms with velvet - not spots, and not the dusty appearance seen with Fresh water fish

It was so subtle I couldn’t decide if it was or not. But nothing died quickly like i’d expect with velvet. Like powdered sugar not the big white spots but no mortality, so I reallyI don’t know if ich or velvet.

Very likely ich

Only in certain light angles would it show. I moved the bulk of the tank to a hospital tank and they are under copper power 2.3ppm for a week now with no problems. No fatalities at all, not what I would expect from a velvet infection.

Great

I left in the tank a mandarin and two tank bred clowns as I had limited hospital space and these were asymptomatic.

Now they are not. The clowns are acting fine but in the right light you can see the powdered sugar spots. They can go under copper in a few days no problem. The mandarin looks awful. If anyone says a mandarin can’t catch ich or velvet they are wrong.

I would treat them as you are the rest of the fish. Mandarins do not 'catch' ich often - but they can.

My question is what can I do to help this guy. I can’t get CP. I have H2O2 on hand and I can’t get Meth Blue. But otherwise I don’t know. Apologies for picture quality they were the best I could get.

I do not think there is a benefit to H2o2 or methylene blue. What copper are you using now? I would use the same one. Otherwise - unless you're not planning to keep the mandarin with the other fish you will have problems.

 

[MnFish1]

The fish Medics need more information, and your post is confusing. You are using CP to treat the Hospital Tank but cannot get it for the Mandarin? What other Fish do you have? Also, not completely sure your Mandarin has Ich. Is he eating?

I think he or she is worried about using copper with the mandarin

 

[Australian_Reef]

It’s rare they get ich but do get flukes which this appears to be. For both , you can utilize chloroquine phosphate at 10mg/L for two weeks and its safe for pods at this concentration so fish can eat

The pictures are bad but they are the best I can get. It really doesn’t look like flukes. I can do a FW bath in the morning to be sure but I’m pretty sure this is ich given the other fish symptoms. I never expected ich.. hence I left him where he was. Not especially virulent strain it seems but the guy has gone from ?possibke spots to covered in 72 hrs and the spots are change positions, right now he looks better than this morning. The eyes seem most affected. But there are only 3 fish now in the tank and I’m guessing there is quite a trophont load. Once copper is completed the other fish will be treated with prazi to treat for any possible flukes.

I can’t get CP in Australia unfortunately. The hospital tank was running for 12mths to establish a bio filter and had lots of pods, but I expect this will now be gone.

 

[Australian_Reef]

There would be no difference between a holding tank and a display tank if a fish with a parasite was introduced - The fish probably had the 'illness' before entering the tank. a salinity of 1.020 may slow down certain parasites (Ich yes, velvet no) - but will not kill or really affect them at all - so you may as well keep it at 1.025.

Marine fish present with breathing and other symptoms with velvet - not spots, and not the dusty appearance seen with Fresh water fish

Very likely ich

Great

I would treat them as you are the rest of the fish. Mandarins do not 'catch' ich often - but they can.

I do not think there is a benefit to H2o2 or methylene blue. What copper are you using now? I would use the same one. Otherwise - unless you're not planning to keep the mandarin with the other fish you will have problems.

I keep my FO tanks at 1.020 because it’s easier on the fish and cheaper on salt, not to ward off disease per see. Just as I was preparing these fish to go into a future 230g reef I started to bring them up to the same salinity as I was running the 230g. Could have been keeping the ich ant unnoticed level until that point as you say.

I had a velvet outbreak 15 years ago that totally destroyed my tank. Since then I’ve been hyper vigilant and don’t add anything to my main display without some form of QT. I run my holding/observation tanks very differently to my display, which is why everything apart from the mandarin is now under treatment. I was worried it wouldn’t survive without pods so it stayed in the unmedicated holding tank. What is very scary is that after many months of observation I was almost ready to put these fish into the new display without going through copper. I’ll never do that again.

Observation alone is just not enough. For me now everything goes through profalactic copper and prazi (can’t get formalin or metro here unfortunately). Bullet near missed.

 

[vetteguy53081]

The pictures are bad but they are the best I can get. It really doesn’t look like flukes. I can do a FW bath in the morning to be sure but I’m pretty sure this is ich given the other fish symptoms. Not especially virulent strain it seems but the guy has gone from ?possibke spots to covered in 72 hrs and the spots are change positions, right now he looks better than this morning. The eyes seem most affected. But there are only 3 fish now in the tank and I’m guessing there is quite a trophont load. Once copper is completed the other fish will be treated with prazi to treat for any possible flukes.

I can’t get CP in Australia unfortunately. The hospital tank was running for 12mths to establish a bio filter and had lots of pods, but I expect this will now be gone.

Yes, hard to tell from pics. If ich. I dont recommended FW bath which is very stressful for them, but you can get and use in your country Aquasonic formalin dosed at 80% as it has some malachite or Tri-sulfa for the Mandarin,. Formalin may be an issue however with pods
No Methelyene blue

 

[Australian_Reef]

Yes, hard to tell from pics. If ich. I dont recommended FW bath which is very stressful for them, but you can get and use in your country Aquasonic formalin dosed at 80% as it has some malachite or Tri-sulfa for the Mandarin,. Formalin may be an issue however with pods
No Methelyene blue

Yes I can get that but I’ve always queried the actual formalin dose. Do you think this is effective as a formalin treatment? Even as a bath for temporary relief? I will definitely it a try though. Many thanks.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yes I can get that but I’ve always queried the actual formalin dose. Do you think this is effective as a formalin treatment? I will definitely it a try though. Many thanks.

This is a measured 37% formula and is correct dose and addresses ich. Copper is the big caution for Mandarins making this safer but again, may affect their pod food source

 

[Australian_Reef]

This is a measured 37% formula and is correct dose and addresses ich. Copper is the big caution for Mandarins making this safer but again, may affect their pod food source

Many thanks.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

A very atypical (for me at least) presentation on ich in a my holding tank ( 70g, fish under observation before being moved to display). I had been keeping the holding tank at 1.020. No new fish had been added for 3-4 months.

I thought I was ready to add these to the new display so I upped salinity to 1.025 over two weeks and also added some sps frags. Over a week or so each fish started with the spots like velvet…. It was so subtle I couldn’t decide if it was or not. But nothing died quickly like i’d expect with velvet. Like powdered sugar not the big white spots but no mortality, so I reallyI don’t know if ich or velvet. Only in certain light angles would it show. I moved the bulk of the tank to a hospital tank and they are under copper power 2.3ppm for a week now with no problems. No fatalities at all, not what I would expect from a velvet infection.

I left in the tank a mandarin and two tank bred clowns as I had limited hospital space and these were asymptomatic.

Now they are not. The clowns are acting fine but in the right light you can see the powdered sugar spots. They can go under copper in a few days no problem. The mandarin looks awful. If anyone says a mandarin can’t catch ich or velvet they are wrong.

My question is what can I do to help this guy. I can’t get CP. I have H2O2 on hand and I can’t get Meth Blue. But otherwise I don’t know. Apologies for picture quality they were the best I could get.

That’s ich on the mandarin. Marine velvet doesn’t cause spots (FW velvet, a different parasite does).

Peroxide only works as an adjunct to tank transfers, you can’t dose it statically to control ich.

If you can’t get amine chelated copper, hyposalinity would be your second choice. There is a sticky thread about that at the top of the fish disease section here.

 

[MnFish1]

I keep my FO tanks at 1.020 because it’s easier on the fish and cheaper on salt, not to ward off disease per see. Just as I was preparing these fish to go into a future 230g reef I started to bring them up to the same salinity as I was running the 230g. Could have been keeping the ich ant unnoticed level until that point as you say.

I had a velvet outbreak 15 years ago that totally destroyed my tank. Since then I’ve been hyper vigilant and don’t add anything to my main display without some form of QT. I run my holding/observation tanks very differently to my display, which is why everything apart from the mandarin is now under treatment. I was worried it wouldn’t survive without pods so it stayed in the unmedicated holding tank. What is very scary is that after many months of observation I was almost ready to put these fish into the new display without going through copper. I’ll never do that again.

Observation alone is just not enough. For me now everything goes through profalactic copper and prazi (can’t get formalin or metro here unfortunately). Bullet near missed.

Well - ok .. I think that totally incorrect.

1. It's not easier on the fish. they naturally live in that situation (excepting certain areas)
2. It Is cheaper on salt
3. I dont think that salinity would keep the ich at bay.
4. agree - about 'some form of QT' however - I would suggest the protocol here

 

[Australian_Reef]

Well - ok .. I think that totally incorrect.

1. It's not easier on the fish. they naturally live in that situation (excepting certain areas)
2. It Is cheaper on salt
3. I dont think that salinity would keep the ich at bay.
4. agree - about 'some form of QT' however - I would suggest the protocol here

Sorry which bit is incorrect? The 1.02? It’s a very common practice for fish only systems and has been for years. It is absolutely easier on the fish as they don’t have to work as hard to maintain osmotic balance particularly after a stressful transit. I live at the extreme end of the Great Barrier Reef and we regularly see the same fish we put in our aquariums in estuaries and river mouths even at low tide. I’ve also measured sea water at 1.036 in thr height of summer. Salinity in different areas and coastal areas especially is more variable than I’d ever thought it would be and fish are hardwired to 1.025.
It’s very normal here to use natural sea water for aquariums. I don’t because I find it such a hassle having to regulate every batch to the correct salinity.

No a salinity of 1.02 would not stop ich I didn’t say it would, I was agreeing with you that it may have slowed it down slightly.

You can read a ‘holding tank’ as a reception tank or observation tank. I use it for new arrivals before moving to a smaller active treatment tank which I just use the term ‘hospital tank’.

 

[Australian_Reef]

That’s ich on the mandarin. Marine velvet doesn’t cause spots (FW velvet, a different parasite does).

Peroxide only works as an adjunct to tank transfers, you can’t dose it statically to control ich.

If you can’t get amine chelated copper, hyposalinity would be your second choice. There is a sticky thread about that at the top of the fish disease section here.

This was my thought too. Just never seen a mandarin with it. So the old adage of sugar dusting vs larger and free spots I’m being marine velvet vs ich is incorrect? I just checked and his respiration rate is definitely increased also. Spots still very visible.
The H202 was more as dip if it would I give any temporary relieved to the fish or not. I’ve never actually used it on a fish before so I dont know.

I have copper power, that’s what the other fish are in atm but it’s a bare system.

 

[BloopFish]

Yes, hard to tell from pics. If ich. I dont recommended FW bath which is very stressful for them, but you can get and use in your country Aquasonic formalin dosed at 80% as it has some malachite or Tri-sulfa for the Mandarin,. Formalin may be an issue however with pods
No Methelyene blue

Using formalin and malachite green to eliminate ich completely is a fool's errand... Yes, parts of the life cycle can be eliminated with formalin, but having a therapeutic dosage of formalin 24/7 is impractical. Moreover, you'd end up overdosing on malachite green after a few doses unless you did heavy water changes. At that point you might as well do hybrid tank transfer method Malachite green also is not recommended to be used in SW systems. The manufacturer of Aquasonic does not mention its efficacy in SW.

Since you aren't entire sure if its ich or velvet, you could do Hybrid Tank Transfer Method with peroxide baths to eliminate both. If you are positive it is indeed ich, a standard tank transfer method would work - but you might as well just do HTTM at that point. Even chelated copper is taken poorly by dragonet as they have a copper sensitivity.

 

[Australian_Reef]

Using formalin and malachite green to eliminate ich completely is a fool's errand... Yes, parts of the life cycle can be eliminated with formalin, but having a therapeutic dosage of formalin 24/7 is impractical. Moreover, you'd end up overdosing on malachite green after a few doses unless you did heavy water changes. At that point you might as well do hybrid tank transfer method Malachite green also is not recommended to be used in SW systems. The manufacturer of Aquasonic does not mention its efficacy in SW.

Since you aren't entire sure if its ich or velvet, you could do Hybrid Tank Transfer Method with peroxide baths to eliminate both. If you are positive it is indeed ich, a standard tank transfer method would work - but you might as well just do HTTM at that point. Even chelated copper is taken poorly by dragonet as they have a copper sensitivity.

Thanks mate. Given the advice above im pretty sure it’s ich. It was just so strange how it presented after months with nothing added and then effecting the mandarin! Wasn’t expecting it. Most obviously it has been there the whole time.

Yeah the pairing of it with malachite green was a strange one for me. But for temporary relief it may be worth it?

Once I have the group of fish I’m currently treating out of copper the mandarin can go into a full copper treatment. The reason it didn’t go I last week was because it was asymptomatic, I was worried about copper toxicity and I just don’t know what it’s going to eat. Same with a TTM. I thought I’d have more time to work something out.

 

[BloopFish]

Thanks mate. Given the advice above im pretty sure it’s ich. It was just so strange how it presented after months with nothing added and then effecting the mandarin! Wasn’t expecting it. Most obviously it has been there the whole time.

Yeah the pairing of it with malachite green was a strange one for me. But for temporary relief it may be worth it?

Once I have the group of fish I’m currently treating out of copper the mandarin can go into a full copper treatment. The reason it didn’t go I last week was because it was asymptomatic, I was worried about copper toxicity and I just don’t know what it’s going to eat. Same with a TTM. I thought I’d have more time to work something out.

Noga does not mention the use of malachite green for SW fish, but does for FW fish. SW formulations of Ich-X by Hikari lacks malachite green, whereas the FW version does. People like Humblefish have experimented with malachite green with poor results. There is also no credible source that has verified it even helps erradicate ich. It's safe to say there is really no reason to use it.

TTM you can just feed it BBS in the container inbetween transfers. I'd like to stress once again that copper is a very poor option for dragonets.

 

[Australian_Reef]

Noga does not mention the use of malachite green for SW fish, but does for FW fish. SW formulations of Ich-X by Hikari lacks malachite green, whereas the FW version does. People like Humblefish have experimented with malachite green with poor results. There is also no credible source that has verified it even helps erradicate ich. It's safe to say there is really no reason to use it.

TTM you can just feed it BBS in the container inbetween transfers. I'd like to stress once again that copper is a very poor option for dragonets.

Thanks again