Ich/velvet in mandarin.

[vetteguy53081]

Using formalin and malachite green to eliminate ich completely is a fool's errand... Yes, parts of the life cycle can be eliminated with formalin, but having a therapeutic dosage of formalin 24/7 is impractical. Moreover, you'd end up overdosing on malachite green after a few doses unless you did heavy water changes. At that point you might as well do hybrid tank transfer method Malachite green also is not recommended to be used in SW systems. The manufacturer of Aquasonic does not mention its efficacy in SW.

Since you aren't entire sure if its ich or velvet, you could do Hybrid Tank Transfer Method with peroxide baths to eliminate both. If you are positive it is indeed ich, a standard tank transfer method would work - but you might as well just do HTTM at that point. Even chelated copper is taken poorly by dragonet as they have a copper sensitivity.

TTM and stress out an already ill fish is the worse move at this point.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks mate. Given the advice above im pretty sure it’s ich. It was just so strange how it presented after months with nothing added and then effecting the mandarin! Wasn’t expecting it. Most obviously it has been there the whole time.

Yeah the pairing of it with malachite green was a strange one for me. But for temporary relief it may be worth it?

Once I have the group of fish I’m currently treating out of copper the mandarin can go into a full copper treatment. The reason it didn’t go I last week was because it was asymptomatic, I was worried about copper toxicity and I just don’t know what it’s going to eat. Same with a TTM. I thought I’d have more time to work something out.

Reason I stated to go 80%. I dont agree with malachite but your sources are limited in your country. CP is best bet if you can get access

 

[BloopFish]

TTM and stress out an already ill fish is the worse move at this point.

Show me any validated claims that malachite green and formalin would fare any better? Your half-done treatment won't do anything for ich.

 

[Australian_Reef]

Reason I stated to go 80%. I dont agree with malachite but your sources are limited in your country. CP is best bet if you can get access

It’s really frustrating the lack access to basic supplies here. Even the fact yes you can get formalin easily but only in a product that pairs it with malachite green.

I even had to import the copper power from the US at 4x the price you guys pay and took a month to get here. But right now I’m very glad I had it in hand

 

[Australian_Reef]

Show me any validated claims that malachite green and formalin would fare any better? Your half-done treatment won't do anything for ich.

I’m actually wondering that anything except hypo would do the job fully on a mandarin to eradicate it fully. Which I can’t do until the hospital tank is empty. I was just hoping that something like the above may give him the time to get to that point. The lack of access to CP makes it very hard.

 

[W31Olds]

If your Mandarin is established, you may be able to target feed it Pellets or Frozen so a Hospital Tank could be an option. My WC will eat frozen, Pellets, but prefers PODs, but I think they are more opportunists than people think.

 

[Australian_Reef]

If your Mandarin is established, you may be able to target feed it Pellets or Frozen so a Hospital Tank could be an option. My WC will eat frozen, Pellets, but prefers PODs, but I think they are more opportunists than people think.

It’s been In a tank that was full of pods for several months (last fish that was added), nit seen any signs of it trying to eat prepared foods. At the moments it’s stopped looking for food and it’s not looking good. Around the eyes seems particular bad.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Show me any validated claims that malachite green and formalin would fare any better? Your half-done treatment won't do anything for ich.

I dont recommend Malachite but this person does not have many options in his country.

@Jay Hemdal

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

It’s been In a tank that was full of pods for several months (last fish that was added), nit seen any signs of it trying to eat prepared foods. At the moments it’s stopped looking for food and it’s not looking good. Around the eyes seems particular bad.

The severity of the infection on the mandarin indicates there is a good possibility that the fish isn't going to survive any treatment. All ich treatments take some time to work - 3 to 5 days in many cases.

Sorry, I was on my phone last night at a meeting and I couldn't link to it, but here is my post on hyposalinity:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/hyposalinity.880546/
Hybrid TTM would only work if you have a stable, non-infected tank to move the fish into after treatment. It is also rough on fish due to the extra handling. In addition, the peroxide component is from an extrapolation of a paper of treating threadfin. The person who came up with that modification may have over-extrapolated its benefit. Here is the abstract for the paper:

Ectoparasite infections can cause death or a decline in the general health of farm-raised finfish. This paper reports the findings from two studies conducted to evaluate the efficacy of hydrogen peroxide as a therapeu-tant for the control of infections of Amyloodinium sp. on cultured Pacific threadfin Polydactylus sexfilis (locally called “moi”). Threadfin with amyloodiniasis collected from a commercial farm were used in both trials. Prior to the trials, and following hydrogen peroxide treatment, the extent of infection was determined by a gill biopsy procedure. An initial trial was conducted in the laboratory to assess the response of juvenile threadfin and Amyloodinium sp. trophonts to hydrogen peroxide exposure at four dosages: 0, 75, 150, or 300 mg/L for 30 min. In a trial on a commercial farm, a hydrogen peroxide treatment at 75 mg/L for 30 min was applied to juvenile threadfin in a grow-out tank. In both trials, hydrogen peroxide was immediately flushed from the culture system with sea-water after the 30 min exposure period. In the laboratory trial, treatment with 300 mg/L hydrogen peroxide resulted in 100% mortality of the exposed group of fish. However, single treatments with hydrogen peroxide at concentrations of 75 or 150 mg/L eliminated Amyloodinium sp. trophonts without causing loss of fish. In the field trial, a single treatment with 75 mg/L hydrogen peroxide greatly reduced levels of Amyloodinium infestation, and a second treatment 6 d later reduced Amyloodinium trophonts to a nondetectable level. These findings suggest that hydrogen peroxide is a suitable chemical for the treatment of amyloodiniasis of cultured, juvenile Pacific threadfin.

 

[Australian_Reef]

The severity of the infection on the mandarin indicates there is a good possibility that the fish isn't going to survive any treatment. All ich treatments take some time to work - 3 to 5 days in many cases.

Sorry, I was on my phone last night at a meeting and I couldn't link to it, but here is my post on hyposalinity:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/hyposalinity.880546/
Hybrid TTM would only work if you have a stable, non-infected tank to move the fish into after treatment. It is also rough on fish due to the extra handling. In addition, the peroxide component is from an extrapolation of a paper of treating threadfin. The person who came up with that modification may have over-extrapolated its benefit. Here is the abstract for the paper:

Ectoparasite infections can cause death or a decline in the general health of farm-raised finfish. This paper reports the findings from two studies conducted to evaluate the efficacy of hydrogen peroxide as a therapeu-tant for the control of infections of Amyloodinium sp. on cultured Pacific threadfin Polydactylus sexfilis (locally called “moi”). Threadfin with amyloodiniasis collected from a commercial farm were used in both trials. Prior to the trials, and following hydrogen peroxide treatment, the extent of infection was determined by a gill biopsy procedure. An initial trial was conducted in the laboratory to assess the response of juvenile threadfin and Amyloodinium sp. trophonts to hydrogen peroxide exposure at four dosages: 0, 75, 150, or 300 mg/L for 30 min. In a trial on a commercial farm, a hydrogen peroxide treatment at 75 mg/L for 30 min was applied to juvenile threadfin in a grow-out tank. In both trials, hydrogen peroxide was immediately flushed from the culture system with sea-water after the 30 min exposure period. In the laboratory trial, treatment with 300 mg/L hydrogen peroxide resulted in 100% mortality of the exposed group of fish. However, single treatments with hydrogen peroxide at concentrations of 75 or 150 mg/L eliminated Amyloodinium sp. trophonts without causing loss of fish. In the field trial, a single treatment with 75 mg/L hydrogen peroxide greatly reduced levels of Amyloodinium infestation, and a second treatment 6 d later reduced Amyloodinium trophonts to a nondetectable level. These findings suggest that hydrogen peroxide is a suitable chemical for the treatment of amyloodiniasis of cultured, juvenile Pacific threadfin.

Thank you.

He’s still hanging in there but I think you are right that he’s very far gone. I’ve never seen a mandarin with ich, and it’s very bad. The two clown fish in the tank will be moved to copper as soon as the first hatch is done.

Just to have a sound check on my plans… I’m going to treat the infected fish for 30 days at 2.3-2.5ppm copper power (hanna test) they ah already been in for 8. Then remove copper using water changes and poly filter. Followed by 14 days observation. Then introduction into new display tank. It is about

Infected observation tank to remain fallow for 60 days. Does this sound ok?

 

[Australian_Reef]

*it is about 10 feet from the infected tank.

 

[mcarroll]

a salinity of 1.020 may slow down certain parasites (Ich yes, velvet no) - but will not kill or really affect them at all - so you may as well keep it at 1.025.

That's misleading...the purpose is to keep down theront population vs letting them balloon out of control. It works for that purpose.

I do not think there is a benefit to H2o2

I don't understand. Are unaware of the studies to the contrary, or in disbelief, or...?

There is more than one, BTW. Experiment has been re-proven more than once.

I've seen no evidence to the contrary, and I know first hand the non-/lower-stress benefits of simple (non-H2O2) freshwater baths in these situations. The fact that they've also been able to substantiate this method in multiple lab scenarios is validating, IMO.

I keep my FO tanks at 1.020 because it’s easier on the fish and cheaper on salt, not to ward off disease per see.

Thank you for stating this! :)

It does have a minor effect on outbreak severity and lethality though!

Observation alone is just not enough.

True!

I'm hoping you have been doing more than just observation in the holding tank?

IE. what about UV, ozone, herbal treatments (eg Ruby Reef), et al?

Observation alone would require a lot more time than you gave, IMO, and be done under better (non-temporary) tank conditions.

(Assuming your holding tank is "typical", correct me if wrong.)

I dont recommended FW bath which is very stressful for them,

It *can* be done stressfully, but it's not inherently stressful.

I say that having done freshwater dips from 10-60 minutes (as called for) on *lots* of fish. (Retail quantities.)

Only a tiny percentage experience a panic reaction – and I mean tiny – but it seemed random as to which types.

I assumed it was literally mood related because the same fish do not have the same reaction when being placed back in the dip later and the reaction ceases immediately when they are back in saltwater.

Most of the stress is from net catching and removing them from the water.

Catching should *not* be done with a net in this circumstance, and the fish should *not* leave the water if at all possible, and for the minimum time possible when it is necessary.

You can read a ‘holding tank’ as a reception tank or observation tank. I use it for new arrivals before moving to a smaller active treatment tank which I just use the term ‘hospital tank’.

"QT" means hospital tank for most people – the terms seem to have gotten confused and blended somehow. Should be un unnecessary clarification, but that's modern times. ;)

So the old adage of sugar dusting vs larger and free spots I’m being marine velvet vs ich is incorrect?

First I've heard that.

It's more prominent on Ich, and velvet does target the gills....but experts tend to say the two are indistinguishable to the naked eye. Gotta involve a microscope if you want to be sure.

That doesn't stop people from trying to be really sure anyway!!!

TTM and stress out an already ill fish is the worse move at this point.

But formalin (etc) isn't stressful? I wonder at the comparison.

I’m actually wondering that anything except hypo would do the job fully on a mandarin to eradicate it fully. Which I can’t do until the hospital tank is empty. I was just hoping that something like the above may give him the time to get to that point. The lack of access to CP makes it very hard.

In the scientific and academic literature it's fairly clear that one doesn't completely eradicate it, not even with formalin or copper.

The fish really are depending on us to de-stess and restore their immune systems.

One problem (a big one for us) is some folks think nothing about stress....or only "there's nothing we can do about it."

There's plenty and it's one of our greatest areas of control. :)

He’s still hanging in there but I think you are right that he’s very far gone. I’ve never seen a mandarin with ich, and it’s very bad. The two clown fish in the tank will be moved to copper as soon as the first hatch is done.

So is there anything keeping down swarmer populations in the holding tank aside from the poor Mandarin's immune system and lowered salinity?

I haven't seen anything else mentioned, which would lead me to think there are addition steps that could have been taken (maybe still).

Lowered salinity is good for maybe a 20% reduction.
UV maximally applied with micron filtration is good for up to 100%.
Herbal remedies can give the fish some direct relief by reducing the infection rate and reducing secondary infection.

Not a tank treatment, but freshwater dips have already been mentioned, and also provide direct relief. Adding H2O2 to the bath (mentioned above) is a logical extension, but not one I've personally done yet.

A comprehensive approach is required....no miracle cures.

 

[Australian_Reef]

That's misleading...the purpose is to keep down theront population vs letting them balloon out of control. It works for that purpose.


I don't understand. Are unaware of the studies to the contrary, or in disbelief, or...?

There is more than one, BTW. Experiment has been re-proven more than once.

I've seen no evidence to the contrary, and I know first hand the non-/lower-stress benefits of simple (non-H2O2) freshwater baths in these situations. The fact that they've also been able to substantiate this method in multiple lab scenarios is validating, IMO.


Thank you for stating this! :)

It does have a minor effect on outbreak severity and lethality though!


True!

I'm hoping you have been doing more than just observation in the holding tank?

IE. what about UV, ozone, herbal treatments (eg Ruby Reef), et al?

Observation alone would require a lot more time than you gave, IMO, and be done under better (non-temporary) tank conditions.

(Assuming your holding tank is "typical", correct me if wrong.)


It *can* be done stressfully, but it's not inherently stressful.

I say that having done freshwater dips from 10-60 minutes (as called for) on *lots* of fish. (Retail quantities.)

Only a tiny percentage experience a panic reaction – and I mean tiny – but it seemed random as to which types.

I assumed it was literally mood related because the same fish do not have the same reaction when being placed back in the dip later and the reaction ceases immediately when they are back in saltwater.

Most of the stress is from net catching and removing them from the water.

Catching should *not* be done with a net in this circumstance, and the fish should *not* leave the water if at all possible, and for the minimum time possible when it is necessary.


"QT" means hospital tank for most people – the terms seem to have gotten confused and blended somehow. Should be un unnecessary clarification, but that's modern times. ;)


First I've heard that.

It's more prominent on Ich, and velvet does target the gills....but experts tend to say the two are indistinguishable to the naked eye. Gotta involve a microscope if you want to be sure.

That doesn't stop people from trying to be really sure anyway!!!


But formalin (etc) isn't stressful? I wonder at the comparison.


In the scientific and academic literature it's fairly clear that one doesn't completely eradicate it, not even with formalin or copper.

The fish really are depending on us to de-stess and restore their immune systems.

One problem (a big one for us) is some folks think nothing about stress....or only "there's nothing we can do about it."

There's plenty and it's one of our greatest areas of control. :)


So is there anything keeping down swarmer populations in the holding tank aside from the poor Mandarin's immune system and lowered salinity?

I haven't seen anything else mentioned, which would lead me to think there are addition steps that could have been taken (maybe still).

Lowered salinity is good for maybe a 20% reduction.
UV maximally applied with micron filtration is good for up to 100%.
Herbal remedies can give the fish some direct relief by reducing the infection rate and reducing secondary infection.

Not a tank treatment, but freshwater dips have already been mentioned, and also provide direct relief. Adding H2O2 to the bath (mentioned above) is a logical extension, but not one I've personally done yet.

A comprehensive approach is required....no miracle cures.

Thanks mate

The QT tank has I suppose served its purpose in that it has identified a disease issue prior to it being introduced to my main display. Disease was identified and treatment started. The issue lies in my treatment options for the mandarin given that I can’t access CP and I have to take the blame on that. I have to say I always believed the old adage that mandarins slime coat was protective. All the other fish can undergo copper treatment. The holding tank will then go fallow before anything else is added and we can start again.

The only reason the fish were there at all was that I was preparing for my 230g to be ready before starting copper treatment in the smaller hospital tank. Last fish was added in July. The mandarin was not going to be moving to the new 230g precisely because it couldn’t go through copper. After the setup of the 230g the holding tank will then be converted into a reef tank and the mandarin would stay there. The whole system is in transition. So much for not worrying about QTing a mandarin because its slime coat protects it from ich . I can only assume a very high parasite load.

It’s definitely hit home for me that despite watching these fish over several months they most likely were infected and I couldn’t tell until the outbreak became extreme. I upped my salinity from 1.02 to 1.025 maybe 5 weeks ago as the same system has just started to house coral frags.. again meant for the main system. It is very possible the ich came in on the frag plugs or lps skeleton, again highlighting the need to QT all corals before adding to the main tank. So maybe my observation skills aren’t as bad as I thought.

After this initial batch, fish will only be added singularly or in small groups so the problem here will be eliminated as they can be added directly to the smaller hospital tank. It has certainly helped me see the fine-hone my QT methods.

Even though the hospital tank has been establishing its bio filter for several months, Ideally I’d have treated the fish with copper in two batches to maintain water quality more easily and reduce territoriality. However the acute symptomatic presentation, which happened very quickly, meant I had to do everything in one go. I’m adding a UV filter to the main display but I haven’t on the QT tank. I don’t know whether this is a good idea or not.. ideally I want any disease to make itself known in QT to then be effectively treated rather than try to suppress it. I could be wrong in this if all fish will be undergoing copper anyway.

 

[mcarroll]

I upped my salinity from 1.02 to 1.025 maybe 5 weeks ago as the same system has just started to house coral frags.

If you weren't doing anything other than lowered salinity, then the best you could hope for was a 20-25% reduction in the swarmer population. For most fish, most situations, that is an insignificant reduction.

So, consider that the infection (ich, velvet, whatever) *was present* – the Mandarin didn't apparently have a problem withstanding an "80+% complete" loading of swarmers. That's tough!!!

You removing the one control on the swarmers (by raising salinity) was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak, allowing the swarmer population to balloon "to its full potential", finally overwhelming the fishes MASSIVE immune defense.

Let's take back what we said about the Mandarin's slime coat being inadequate and give him the props he deserves! Hero's honors! It's pretty amazing what he has endured IMO.

Applying any of those added measures I mentioned in some combination (UV, et al) would almost certainly have changed the story on this fish for the better.

 

[Australian_Reef]

If you weren't doing anything other than lowered salinity, then the best you could hope for was a 20-25% reduction in the swarmer population. For most fish, most situations, that is an insignificant reduction.

So, consider that the infection (ich, velvet, whatever) *was present* – the Mandarin didn't apparently have a problem withstanding an "80+% complete" loading of swarmers. That's tough!!!

You removing the one control on the swarmers (by raising salinity) was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak, allowing the swarmer population to balloon "to its full potential", finally overwhelming the fishes MASSIVE immune defense.

Let's take back what we said about the Mandarin's slime coat being inadequate and give him the props he deserves! Hero's honors! It's pretty amazing what he has endured IMO.

Applying any of those added measures I mentioned in some combination (UV, et al) would almost certainly have changed the story on this fish for the better.

Yes but the mandarin wasn’t the only fish in there originally. A bristle tooth tang was the first to show symptoms be has been under copper for 8 days. At that point the mandarin wasn’t symptomatic. The removal of other potential hosts left the mandarin exposed to all the many that original infested them. Obviously the critical mass proved too much even for him.

Two tank bred clowns are also still in the tank and they are largely asymptomatic atm, they will go into copper when I have space available.

 

[mcarroll]

Yes but the mandarin wasn’t the only fish in there originally. A bristle tooth tang was the first to show symptoms be has been under copper for 8 days. At that point the mandarin wasn’t symptomatic. The removal of other potential hosts left the mandarin exposed to all the many that original infested them. Obviously the critical mass proved too much even for him.

Two tank bred clowns are also still in the tank and they are largely asymptomatic atm, they will go into copper when I have space available.

This is complicated, but that's also what I was saying. :)

The mandarin was in there with the others you removed to treatment, so the infection was already present in the water. (Maybe at only 80-85% potential strength.)

That says a lot about how strong their immune systems are compared with the ones that showed infection and had to be treated "early".

Same goes for the Clowns – their color would fade as they succumb, but they are tough buggers.

Both Mandarins and Clowns have a WELL DESERVED reputation for strong immunity. It goes with their turf – being ground-oriented fish gives them a much higher exposure rate to potential pests than other types of fish. Gotta have that extra capacity or you get Darwined off the reef. ;)

Check out this article....clowns are a colored-for-immunity fish, the others are colored for "other purposes":
Red fish, blue fish: trade-offs between pigmentation and immunity in Betta splendens

...pretty sure Mandarins fall into the same category as the clowns.

Again, if your Mandarin (and Clowns) had more help keeping the swarmers of the outbreak contained (eg UV, micron filtration, etc) then they may have outlasted the infection indefinitely – even permanently. It's even possible the "more fragile" fish would have fared significantly better. But, Tangs, etc are NOT built that way because they are not that kind of fish...hence our perception of their "increased susceptibility". No, they are just built for speed, not parasites. :)

 

[Australian_Reef]

This is complicated, but that's also what I was saying. :)

The mandarin was in there with the others you removed to treatment, so the infection was already present in the water. (Maybe at only 80-85% potential strength.)

That says a lot about how strong their immune systems are compared with the ones that showed infection and had to be treated "early".

Same goes for the Clowns – their color would fade as they succumb, but they are tough buggers.

Both Mandarins and Clowns have a WELL DESERVED reputation for strong immunity. It goes with their turf – being ground-oriented fish gives them a much higher exposure rate to potential pests than other types of fish. Gotta have that extra capacity or you get Darwined off the reef. ;)

Check out this article....clowns are a colored-for-immunity fish, the others are colored for "other purposes":
Red fish, blue fish: trade-offs between pigmentation and immunity in Betta splendens

...pretty sure Mandarins fall into the same category as the clowns.

Again, if your Mandarin (and Clowns) had more help keeping the swarmers of the outbreak contained (eg UV, micron filtration, etc) then they may have outlasted the infection indefinitely – even permanently. It's even possible the "more fragile" fish would have fared significantly better. But, Tangs, etc are NOT built that way because they are not that kind of fish...hence our perception of their "increased susceptibility". No, they are just built for speed, not parasites. :)

Yes I understand you on the UV, the main tank will run it for this very reason and because I would like an acanthurus tang (And also ozone for water clarity). But we can’t get ruby reef or anything like that and I don’t know which of essential oil products have any data behind them. I feed well and enrich with vitamins that’s about as much as I go.

The mandarin has died and it’s very regrettable. With my inability to source an effective treatment for it I don’t think I’ll be getting another. It does have this strange white patch that developed a few hours before death. A symphony of anything or just a sign of near death/organ failure? Skin was intact in that area.

 

[Australian_Reef]

Just for clarification on my initial post when I referred to CP I meant Chorloquine phosphate not Copper Power. Apologise for the confusion.

 

[W31Olds]

I'm still not entirely convinced your Mandarin died from Ich with the clowns being asymptomatic. It may have been weakened by some other event or in decline before your outbreak. When did you remove him as I don't see Ich. I don't dispute you have Ich in your Tank and you a correct to suspect the Frags brought it in. I QT all Corals before they go in my DT. Jay indicated Chelated Copper is not a problem for Mandarins so you could get another one. Sorry for your loss.

 

[Australian_Reef]

I'm still not entirely convinced your Mandarin died from Ich with the clowns being asymptomatic. It may have been weakened by some other event or in decline before your outbreak. When did you remove him as I don't see Ich. I don't dispute you have Ich in your Tank and you a correct to suspect the Frags brought it in. I QT all Corals before they go in my DT. Jay indicated Chelated Copper is not a problem for Mandarins so you could get another one. Sorry for your loss.

I removed him when he died the photo was taken a couple of minutes later. There was definitely a very heavy ich infection on him. He went from asymptomatic to dead in 4 days. The mucus outside the water hides the spots. The clowns have shown spots but are acting and feeding normally, no depression. They are absolutely infected though.

I wouldn’t discount a secondary agent or infection that’s for sure. He wasn’t thin that’s for sure. But I do think if anyone ever says mandarins can’t or won’t get inch then point them to this thread.

The copper issue really revolves around feeding. I’d be willing to risk chelated copper but I’d worry about the pod supply.