ICH

[Squidward]

TTM won’t work in this case because the OP doesn’t have an ich free tank to move the fish into. We also aren’t sure that ich is the only issue.

I meant for future fish additions.

Did you see my post? TTM won't work in cases like this because the person has no clean tank to move the fish into after the TTM is concluded. The original tank will need to be fallowed for 60 days.

I was responding to win_xp man. I saw your post. My response was a recommendation to the OP for future qurantining.

 

[Squidward]

To each their own. Have had many success stories now with copper over the year and a half I have started to QT with copper. And again this is chelated copper not ionic which is more toxic.

Your disagreement is no different than the people saying just put the fish in the tank and manage ich.
Yes that can be done with proper knowledge and care.

But I will ask this of you. What do you say to brook, velvet, and flukes that can get by. Unless we are talking HTTM? I tell the no need to QT guys the same. What happens when the hard diseases strike? The the one statement that made some sense is I trust my fish Sources, but…! Not everyone has access to such fish, or have the money to spend on QT’ed fish. If I where to post pics I have of one of the LFS’s near me and some of the crazy things on their fish sometimes have on them that no TTM or anything but the simple process of the QT protocol Jay has outlined here on this forum with copper can help you would say other wise.

Our disease section here is evidence there is more than meets the eye with diseases that seem so prolific in LFS tanks and that come with fish.

Last thing hypo would be an even better step for ich vs TTM, and hypo when deals with flukes.

I did use prazi for some angels but all my tangs and smaller fish have successfully gone thru TTM. I've yet to see velvet appear while doing TTM. That could happen but I've never seen it personally. No way would i risk doing hypo when TTM is soo much easier. And using copper...I just don't like torturing my fish.

 

[strich]

To each their own. Have had many success stories now with copper over the year and a half I have started to QT with copper. And again this is chelated copper not ionic which is more toxic.

Your disagreement is no different than the people saying just put the fish in the tank and manage ich.
Yes that can be done with proper knowledge and care.

But I will ask this of you. What do you say to brook, velvet, and flukes that can get by. Unless we are talking HTTM? I tell the no need to QT guys the same. What happens when the hard diseases strike? The the one statement that made some sense is I trust my fish Sources, but…! Not everyone has access to such fish, or have the money to spend on QT’ed fish. If I where to post pics I have of one of the LFS’s near me and some of the crazy things on their fish sometimes have on them that no TTM or anything but the simple process of the QT protocol Jay has outlined here on this forum with copper can help you would say other wise.

Our disease section here is evidence there is more than meets the eye with diseases that seem so prolific in LFS tanks and that come with fish.

Last thing hypo would be an even better step for ich vs TTM, and hypo when deals with flukes.

I did use prazi for some angels but all my tangs and smaller fish have successfully gone thru TTM. I've yet to see velvet appear while doing TTM. That could happen but I've never seen it personally. No way would i risk doing hypo when TTM is soo much easier. And using copper...I just don't like torturing my fish.

I hadn't heard of TTM so I looked it up. I might be confused but TTM doesn't seem like a useful protocol for QT as it's specifically designed to outlive the ick cycle. Velvet and flukes will persist through it no?

 

[Squidward]

I hadn't heard of TTM so I looked it up. I might be confused but TTM doesn't seem like a useful protocol for QT as it's specifically designed to outlive the ick cycle. Velvet and flukes will persist through it no?

I have yet to see velvet while doing TTM personally. (There is a special TTM for velvet which is longer but I've never tried it) For flukes you can do 2 treatments of prazi pro during TTM. TTM has been successful and the best invention in qurantine IMO as no chemical is needed or monitoring of copper level and worrying as it only takes 12 days. People act like catching the fish during each transfer is super stressful...when it can be done quickly and easy. Just drain most of the water then use a colander to catch the fish. TTM has been the main reason why I'm able to keep Achilles and Powder Blues, the most ich magnet fish successfully. I would've quit the hobby long ago if it werent for TTM.

 

[strich]

I have yet to see velvet while doing TTM personally. (There is a special TTM for velvet which is longer but I've never tried it) For flukes you can do 2 treatments of prazi pro during TTM. TTM has been successful and the best invention in qurantine IMO as no chemical is needed or monitoring of copper level and worrying as it only takes 12 days. People act like catching the fish during each transfer is super stressful...when it can be done quickly and easy. Just drain most of the water then use a colander to catch the fish. TTM has been the main reason why I'm able to keep Achilles and Powder Blues, the most ich magnet fish successfully. I would've quit the hobby long ago if it werent for TTM.

I might've misread this thread but as I understood it, you are saying TTM is a great QT protocol for incoming fish right? But as you've just said, your default TTM protocol is just for ick. There is a different one for velvet. And separate chemical dosing for flukes. If you're not doing all 3 protocols as part of your QT I'm not really sure how that's comparable to copper which covers ick and velvet.

 

[winxp_man]

I did use prazi for some angels but all my tangs and smaller fish have successfully gone thru TTM. I've yet to see velvet appear while doing TTM. That could happen but I've never seen it personally. No way would i risk doing hypo when TTM is soo much easier. And using copper...I just don't like torturing my fish.

What torture you speak of? Of the 100’s fish I have have now QT’ed not one that had issues after QT started. The fish I have had die was issues before QT. Also had velvet myself so TTM is not something I’m willing to attempted with how fast it kills.

If you’re going to state torture I would like evidence of said torture. Did you read the part of the difference between ionic copper and chelated in my post? And here is a twisted crazy thing I have stumbled across in a copper power QT, had a aio 20 I fallows corals and inverts in. After I was done I switched it to house a pair of clowns for my brother. Doing so I ended up with bristles in the aio sump chambers that I didn’t know were in there. After 30 days of copper they were still living! It was crazy to see when we know copper for inverts is no bueno, and kills them. If chelated is as bad as you state, torture how are these inverts living in it? Maybe, even for inverts not as bad as it might seem. Not saying eventually they will not die, but 30 days of copper and still moving around is crazy.

And a big picture to TTM most don’t get is how sterilizing you have to be and have room for dual tanks vs a single tank for copper. I know plenty of people that just don’t have room beyond a single QT tank.
My fish stress more from being caught and handled on a regular vs left in copper power to QT.


Per studies for copper power.

Because COPPER POWER precipitates at such a low rate, a copper precipitate mucus does not form to clog the gill filaments of marine animals. For this reason, COPPER POWER is approximately 60 times less toxic to marine fish than other copper forms.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I meant for future fish additions.

I was responding to win_xp man. I saw your post. My response was a recommendation to the OP for future qurantining.

I stopped using TTM back in the later 1980's - too many drawbacks and limited effectiveness. Here is a write-up from my disease book that I'm working on:

“Tank chasing” method (Tank Transfer Method - TTM)

A mostly theoretical method for treating Cryptocaryon infections takes advantage of the life cycle of the organism—moving the infected fish to a new aquarium at the point where the tomonts are produced, potentially breaking the life cycle. In real-world applications, multiple tank moves are required because, as mentioned above, the ich parasites are rarely in perfect synchronicity. This process can be physically damaging to fish, and ammonia levels can build up too high in the containers between transfers. In addition, the method does not control flukes and may not control Amyloodinium (velvet). “Hybrid TTM”, using the addition of hydrogen peroxide at two points in the process has been touted as a way around this deficiency. The trouble with that is that “dips” in general are rarely 100% effective for parasites, and fluke eggs will not be controlled at all.

There are also diseases that simply do not manifest themselves within the shortened timeline of TTM. You then risk introducing those diseases into your DT (display tank) due to the shortened time for the TTM over that of the more typical 40+ day quarantine methods. Some of those diseases are not treatable, but you definitely don't want them to get into your main aquarium.... Myxosporidians, viruses, etc. Remember, part of the reason to run a full quarantine on new fish is to protect your existing fish from any diseases they may be carrying.

Avoid using opaque buckets or bins for TTM. You need to have clear lateral viewing of new fish to screen them for other issues, like not eating well, fighting, etc. Remember that TTM is rather stressful, moving the fish like that, and with newly acquired fish, stress reduction is vital.

Another drawback to TTM is that it really only works for newly acquired fish. If you have an existing aquarium, and the fish develop ich, you can't remove them and use TTM because at the end of the run, you need a clean tank to house them and your DT will have been recently infected and will still be in its fallow period. Copper and hyposalinity require longer treatment periods, so you can't run them unless you have a stable treatment tank - and therefore, the fish can be housed in that tank until your display has run fallow long enough.

 

[christinna77]

After 30 days of copper they were still living! It was crazy to see when we know copper for inverts is no bueno, and kills them.

I regularly see copepods on the glass in my quarantine tank (transferred from my seeded sponge from DT) while in full copper power. They seem to survive the entire time and even multiply.