Ick, Powder Brown - Round 2

[ErikVR]

I'm in the ich magnet club with PBT's. That fish shot me in the foot after trying multiple QT attempts with them. I single handedly run both tanks @ ich management now (due to them) and livestock aren't dropping dead as some say they will.

If you've been doing this long enough many of us plopped and prayed for years and did (do) just fine, it's all about sourcing livestock from a relatively good source in the first place anymore.

Same. I follow quarantine protocols by the book. My DT has UV running correctly 24/7.
My quarantine room is more elaborate than most people's display tanks.
They are just time bombs.

Not saying they can't be kept at all but I'm guessing extreme luck on top of perfect equipment, maintenance, protocols and food is required. With the luck component of sourcing the right fish being essential. I've seen them going from extremely happy and healthy to near death without any changes or external influences in a matter of a week.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

If one fish has ich then it’s in your system. You need to treat all the fish in another tank if you have corals and the DT needs to run fallow. Humblefish website is a good site to check out for quarantining fish.

We actually have a very comprehensive quarantine protocol here:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks. Will take a video tomorrow morning.

The tank has been up since July (4ish months). My nitrate is less than 2 and phosphate is 0.03. Tank params are fine with the big 3 (Alk, Ca, Mg). I’m fighting cyano at the moment - other than that, things are doing fine.

I took the powder brown out ~4 weeks ago and treated it with CopperSafe at 2.5ppm. He’s been fine last week, hence I put him back to the DT. Perhaps I should let him sit in QT longer?

He’s in my anemone tank: 175g + frag.

Just to confirm the timeline here, I couldn't tell - you had a powder brown in the tank that showed ich, you took it out, treated it and put it back into the tank and it shows spots again? Or, did it go from one tank to another? The reason I ask is that in the first scenario, there would still be ich present in the tank, and then returning such a susceptible species would just get it sick again. My suspicion here is not that the coppersafe didn't work to cure the tang's infection, but that the tang is picking up an infection from the tank itself.

While we are waiting on video to try and confirm the infection, here is a write up I did on "ich management"

Starting Ich Management during an active infection only works if the number of trophonts on the fish is below a certain number. Above that number and the trophonts themselves become stressors and the parasite gains a foothold, despite your attempts to manage it. So what is that number? It depends on too many variables - but I start to expect Ich Management to fail if the number of spots on any one fish is above 30 or so.

Here is my protocol for ich management. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and choose which items you want to follow - you need to go with all guns blazing and use them all.

“Ich Management” Because many aquarists mix fish and invertebrates, they are ill-prepared to then treat for marine ich, as the two best treatments, amine-based copper or hyposalinity, cannot be used with invertebrates. A popular technique has then arisen, “ich management”. It is popular not because it works well, but because it is an easier alternative. Be forewarned, it often fails if applied during moderate infections. The reason that it exists as a technique at all is because people find themselves in situations like this and are desperate to try anything.

The basic idea is to reduce the infective propagules (tomites) of the ich parasite to the point where the fish's acquired immunity can fight the infection off. This is done through a series of techniques for stress reduction and tomite limiting. Unfortunately, the ich tomites themselves cause stress to the fish, so if the fish have more than 30 or so trophonts on them, the method often fails.

1) Install a powerful UV sterilizer on the aquarium.
2) Ensure that the fish's diet and water quality are the best you can make them.
3) Keep the water temperature close to 78 degrees F.
4) Siphon off the tank floor nightly to remove as many tomonts as possible.
5) Employ strong filtration to trap as many tomites as possible.
6) Try a proprietary "reef safe" marine ich medication. These rarely cure ich infections on their own, but some may have benefit when combined with other management methods. Avoid the herbal remedies, focus on those that contain peroxide salts. There is, however, some evidence that using peroxides with UV does not work, as the UV can break down the peroxides.

Jay

 

[bakbay]

 

[bakbay]

@Jay Hemdal and @vetteguy53081 thanks so much for responding. I’ve really enjoyed your articles and posts! Folks like you are well respected and the crown jewels of R2R!

Can you please confirm if it’s ich from the video above?

Timeline: the PB was in another tank for 1.5yrs, healthy but was bullying other fish. I moved him to this current 175g nem tank 6 weeks ago. The PB had ich so I yanked him out 5 weeks ago to treat with CopperPower. During that time, I believe Brook wiped out all clowns! All the other fish were/are fine. I’ve moved the PB back from QT this week and 2 days later, same thing!

Now I’m trying to catch him to repeat the process. Reading the posts, sounds like I have to yank ALL fish out? Ugh…

Thanks again

 

[bakbay]

I have two issues with this tank:
1. Brook wiped out all my clowns
2. PBT got ich(?) twice

All other fish (tangs, angels, chromis, damsels) have been fine this whole time. Corals are ok and growing, including SPS. The tank is approaching 5mos old.

 

[vetteguy53081]

@Jay Hemdal and @vetteguy53081 thanks so much for responding. I’ve really enjoyed your articles and posts! Folks like you are well respected and the crown jewels of R2R!

Can you please confirm if it’s ich from the video above?

Timeline: the PB was in another tank for 1.5yrs, healthy but was bullying other fish. I moved him to this current 175g nem tank 6 weeks ago. The PB had ich so I yanked him out 5 weeks ago to treat with CopperPower. During that time, I believe Brook wiped out all clowns! All the other fish were/are fine. I’ve moved the PB back from QT this week and 2 days later, same thing!

Now I’m trying to catch him to repeat the process. Reading the posts, sounds like I have to yank ALL fish out? Ugh…

Thanks again

Those are mucus cones which tangs are very prone to getting. There may be ich mixed in there as well one source of these mucus cones is often ich.
Do any of the other fish show these spots?
Fish sometimes develop excess mucus that excretes from the producing skin cells which rises up as a cone or a plug. These often derive from skin irritation.
Assure good water quality and for cure often good water quality will diminish it but treating with coppersafe and copper power may help at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.

 

[bakbay]

Those are mucus cones which tangs are very prone to getting. There may be ich mixed in there as well one source of these mucus cones is often ich.
Do any of the other fish show these spots?
Fish sometimes develop excess mucus that excretes from the producing skin cells which rises up as a cone or a plug. These often derive from skin irritation.
Assure good water quality and for cure often good water quality will diminish it but treating with coppersafe and copper power may help at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.

No other fish had his symptom, even like last time. Yes — I was QT’ing him with Copper Power and tested 2.5 using Hanna. I believe he was in QT for 3-4weeks. He was eating well and clean hence I moved him back this week.

My 20g QT setup.

 

[vetteguy53081]

No other fish had his symptom, even like last time. Yes — I was QT’ing him with Copper Power and tested 2.5 using Hanna. I believe he was in QT for 3-4weeks. He was eating well and clean hence I moved him back this week.

My 20g QT setup.

Remember when treating, MUST BE a FULL 30 days, no less.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal and @vetteguy53081 thanks so much for responding. I’ve really enjoyed your articles and posts! Folks like you are well respected and the crown jewels of R2R!

Can you please confirm if it’s ich from the video above?

Timeline: the PB was in another tank for 1.5yrs, healthy but was bullying other fish. I moved him to this current 175g nem tank 6 weeks ago. The PB had ich so I yanked him out 5 weeks ago to treat with CopperPower. During that time, I believe Brook wiped out all clowns! All the other fish were/are fine. I’ve moved the PB back from QT this week and 2 days later, same thing!

Now I’m trying to catch him to repeat the process. Reading the posts, sounds like I have to yank ALL fish out? Ugh…

Thanks again

I agree with @vetteguy53081 - the tang has mucus plugs/cones and there is likely ich in the mix as well. Tangs develop mucus cones as a reaction to some stressor. It turns out that one common stressor is the ich trophont itself, which tends to cause slightly smaller white spots. Tangs can get mucus cones without having ich, but in this case, I think I can see white discoloration on the pectoral fins, and that is a sign of ich as mucus plugs do not develop there.

Jay

 

[bakbay]

And I feel embarrassed to ask these questions but I have not had to deal with these things for more than a decade. This was my first encounter with Brook and perhaps second encounter with ich/mucus. Last time was likely 15yrs ago, powder blue! Ha

Remember when treating, MUST BE a FULL 30 days, no less.

hmmm.. I suspect that might be my problem! I don’t believe he was in there for the full 30 days. I have to go check my notes.

 

[bakbay]

Thanks for confirming guys - very much appreciated. I think I’m done with powder tangs after this. Honestly don’t have the time to care for them, as much as I love them though.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for confirming guys - very much appreciated. I think I’m done with powder tangs after this. Honestly don’t have the time to care for them, as much as I love them though.

I stopped buying any powder tangs decades ago, Achilles tangs as well. Just not worth the effort for me.....

Jay

 

[bakbay]

I stopped buying any powder tangs decades ago, Achilles tangs as well. Just not worth the effort for me.....

Jay

Now you’re making me nervous! I got an Achilles 2mos ago — fully QT’ed and in my SPS cube with 5 other tangs. Ha

 

[bakbay]

Also, I usually blame myself first before others. However, I was almost forced to get this PBT ‘cause he’s cute 1.5yrs ago by my other half! lol

 

[vetteguy53081]

Now you’re making me nervous! I got an Achilles 2mos ago — fully QT’ed and in my SPS cube with 5 other tangs. Ha

Achilles will display issues fairly early like the first month
Mine vac was the first week and 5 years later, no issues

 

[bakbay]

Ok, glad to hear! Mine is still clean and a ferocious eater, competing with the ginormous sailfin (to be rehomed later). He seems be to second in command atm. Everyone is well fed so no aggression so far!

 

[bakbay]

Thanks, just beautiful and healthy looking, your reef looks awesome
Debra

This is for you sailfin lover!

I’ve had her for prb 5yrs+ now - she came from my 60g as a juvenile. They do grow fast so always think ahead in terms of tank size!

 

[Debramb]

This is for you sailfin lover!

I’ve had her for prb 5yrs+ now - she came from my 60g as a juvenile. They do grow fast so always think ahead in terms of tank size!

Just beautiful, I’ve had mine since 2012, (looked back at notes lol) and she’s just now getting the elongated shape, thankfully Thanks for the pics!!
Debra

 

[Debramb]

Just beautiful, I’ve had mine since 2012, (looked back at notes lol) and she’s just now getting the elongated shape, thankfully Thanks for the pics!!
Debra

Just enlarged yours again, it has different pattern in between stripes. My girl straight up blk/white, spots on nose like pattern of yours sides!, noted others with lots of yellow too. Just beautiful