Ick!!

[Humblefish]

Is there a difference?

API is a total copper test kit which reads up to 4.0 ppm. For the product you bought, you will want to maintain 1.5 - 2.0 ppm Cu at all times.

Salifert (and Seachem) copper test kit tops out at 1.0 ppm, as it is meant for low range ionic copper (Cupramine or pure copper sulfate). So, you'd never be able to accurately measure 1.5 - 2.0 ppm with either of those.

 

[Frop]

API is a total copper test kit which reads up to 4.0 ppm. For the product you bought, you will want to maintain 1.5 - 2.0 ppm Cu at all times.

Salifert (and Seachem) copper test kit tops out at 1.0 ppm, as it is meant for low range ionic copper (Cupramine or pure copper sulfate). So, you'd never be able to accurately measure 1.5 - 2.0 ppm with either of those.

Could you dilute the test? I have the api one and that thing is major pain to read anyways :/

 

[TangsRLife]

Thanks for the help! Wouldn't of known that by the labels. It says to dose 5ml per 10 gallons. Should I go by that rule? I just ordered the test kit and it will be here Wednesday. I want to slowly get to theraputic levels so I was gonna do 5 ml per day for 5 days (50 gal QT). Would that work or should I go less?

 

[Humblefish]

I want to slowly get to theraputic levels so I was gonna do 5 ml per day for 5 days (50 gal QT). Would that work or should I go less?

That dosing regimen sounds fine. But test the Cu level every day to be sure you are not overdosing.

 

[TangsRLife]

We are in business. Got the 65 (thought it was 55 but I'm not complaining) gal setup with 2 heaters, a overhang filter with some filter floss, and 2 small power heads set up. They were nervous right away when moving them from the 20 gal to a bucket then to the 65. After an hour they calmed down and some were eating and another hour later I fed a bit more to see and all of them are eating. All of fish are openly swimming but a few get scared and hide when I pass by. The white spot looks like it may have dropped so it's either in the 125 display, 20, or 65. I added 5 ml of copper aid. I won't be able to measure till wed so I will stay under the amount they say to dose (5ml per 10 gal) till I get the API test. Now another question. Do I want to be feeding my pigs, oops sorry, my fish, the same amount of heavy feeding I did in the 125? And should I still be adding a lot of food for my inverts and for the nitrifying bacteria population to thrive?

 

[melypr1985]

We are in business. Got the 65 (thought it was 55 but I'm not complaining) gal setup with 2 heaters, a overhang filter with some filter floss, and 2 small power heads set up. They were nervous right away when moving them from the 20 gal to a bucket then to the 65. After an hour they calmed down and some were eating and another hour later I fed a bit more to see and all of them are eating. All of fish are openly swimming but a few get scared and hide when I pass by. The white spot looks like it may have dropped so it's either in the 125 display, 20, or 65. I added 5 ml of copper aid. I won't be able to measure till wed so I will stay under the amount they say to dose (5ml per 10 gal) till I get the API test. Now another question. Do I want to be feeding my pigs, oops sorry, my fish, the same amount of heavy feeding I did in the 125? And should I still be adding a lot of food for my inverts and for the nitrifying bacteria population to thrive?

You don't want to feed them too heavily because ammonia could become a problem in the QT. You DT only needs light feeding a couple times a week to keep it going. You could just feed the corals like normal and let that feed the bacteria as well.

 

[TangsRLife]

So I've been trying to use copper aid and it says 5ml per 10 gal but I learned that with the whole bottle ( 473 ml) only brings the tank to .25 copper (chelated copper) and I don't want to buy another 20$ bottle x how many times. So I'm gonna move to coppersafe. Do I need to remove all of the copper aid before hand and how? Or can I mix the two if they are both chelated?

 

[Humblefish]

So I'm gonna move to coppersafe. Do I need to remove all of the copper aid before hand and how? Or can I mix the two if they are both chelated?

I would run carbon (in a reactor) for 24 hrs, take offline and then add Coppersafe.

 

[TangsRLife]

What if I don't have another reactor?

 

[Humblefish]

What if I don't have another reactor?

If you put carbon in a bag in a HOB, the water will just go around it. However, a polyfilter can be used in a HOB and will remove all the copper: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4335

 

[Congaken]

Here's a little snippet of info on the life cycle of ick...

Life Cycle - Ich is most often introduced into an aquarium by a fish carrying trophonts. However, cross contamination from theronts or a tomont brought in on a coral/invert are other possibilities. Assuming we are dealing with a fish carrying trophonts, this is how the life cycle plays out:

1. A trophont will typically spend 3-7 days feeding on a fish, before dropping off to become a protomont.
2. The protomont crawls around for 2-18 hours, looking for a surface to encyst upon. Once it finds this, it sticks to the surface, and begins the encysting process. The parasite is now called a tomont.
3. It takes about 8-12 hours for the cyst to harden around the tomont. After this, the tomont goes into “reproductive mode” producing numerous daughter tomites. These tomites are then released into the water column as theronts. How long it takes for theronts to be released varies greatly, depending upon which strain of ich you are dealing with. The average time is 2 weeks, with 35 days usually being the maximum; however in at least one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), it took 72 days for all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts.
4. The now “free swimming” theronts seek out fish to feed on, thereby becoming trophonts, and the cycle starts all over again. A given strain will die out after 100 generations or so. Given the average life cycle of ich is 2 weeks, this could take almost 4 years (on average).

As you may have noticed, the timing for each stage to “move forward” to the next varies considerably. Therefore, ich is rarely in sync. For example, it is not unusual for a fish to be battling trophonts, while simultaneously theronts are swimming around looking for a host to feed on. This is especially true if your tank is plagued by more than one strain of ich. It’s this “perfect storm” that sometimes allows ich to overwhelm an immune system and the fish dies.

Here's a little snippet of info on the life cycle of ick...

Life Cycle - Ich is most often introduced into an aquarium by a fish carrying trophonts. However, cross contamination from theronts or a tomont brought in on a coral/invert are other possibilities. Assuming we are dealing with a fish carrying trophonts, this is how the life cycle plays out:

1. A trophont will typically spend 3-7 days feeding on a fish, before dropping off to become a protomont.
2. The protomont crawls around for 2-18 hours, looking for a surface to encyst upon. Once it finds this, it sticks to the surface, and begins the encysting process. The parasite is now called a tomont.
3. It takes about 8-12 hours for the cyst to harden around the tomont. After this, the tomont goes into “reproductive mode” producing numerous daughter tomites. These tomites are then released into the water column as theronts. How long it takes for theronts to be released varies greatly, depending upon which strain of ich you are dealing with. The average time is 2 weeks, with 35 days usually being the maximum; however in at least one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), it took 72 days for all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts.
4. The now “free swimming” theronts seek out fish to feed on, thereby becoming trophonts, and the cycle starts all over again. A given strain will die out after 100 generations or so. Given the average life cycle of ich is 2 weeks, this could take almost 4 years (on average).

As you may have noticed, the timing for each stage to “move forward” to the next varies considerably. Therefore, ich is rarely in sync. For example, it is not unusual for a fish to be battling trophonts, while simultaneously theronts are swimming around looking for a host to feed on. This is especially true if your tank is plagued by more than one strain of ich. It’s this “perfect storm” that sometimes allows ich to overwhelm an immune system and the fish dies.

 

[Congaken]

Meridith...I'm Ken, Lauren's friend from The Catskill Reef...Got an ich issue...relatively new 65 fowler except it has a cuc and shrimp and emerald...have 5 firefish, a Kole and a RG...I put the Kole in last after inadequate time in QT with copper ( 2 1/2 weeks) he and the RG showed symptoms...removed them to 20 gal QT with copper...this is my question: no room in QT for remaining ff...changing water and thinking of using HyperCure...My thinking is to kill the theronts while their swimming...also could ff be resistant enough to consider the 65 to be fallow for that period if they are unaffected...they have no symptoms at all now...Thanks for your time, regards to Lauren and we'd love to have you as a Catskill Reef Member...it would certainly boost our little club's ability to provide good info...immensely...Thank you...Ken

 

[Humblefish]

@Congaken A 20 gal QT should be large enough to accommodate that bioload; 5 firefish won't poop enough to make much of a difference. ;)

Alternatively, TTM would be ideal for them if you provided a secure lid to prevent jumping: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

 

[melypr1985]

Meridith...I'm Ken, Lauren's friend from The Catskill Reef...Got an ich issue...relatively new 65 fowler except it has a cuc and shrimp and emerald...have 5 firefish, a Kole and a RG...I put the Kole in last after inadequate time in QT with copper ( 2 1/2 weeks) he and the RG showed symptoms...removed them to 20 gal QT with copper...this is my question: no room in QT for remaining ff...changing water and thinking of using HyperCure...My thinking is to kill the theronts while their swimming...also could ff be resistant enough to consider the 65 to be fallow for that period if they are unaffected...they have no symptoms at all now...Thanks for your time, regards to Lauren and we'd love to have you as a Catskill Reef Member...it would certainly boost our little club's ability to provide good info...immensely...Thank you...Ken

@Congaken A 20 gal QT should be large enough to accommodate that bioload; 5 firefish won't poop enough to make much of a difference. ;)

Alternatively, TTM would be ideal for them if you provided a secure lid to prevent jumping: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

Hi Ken! I just got back from vacation and I'm catching up, so I'm sorry for the delay. Humblefish has given you great advice there. It's right along with what I would suggest as well. I would not consider leaving the firefish in the display as they will allow the ick life cycle to continue whether they display symptoms or not.

 

[Humblefish]

Hi Ken! I just got back from vacation and I'm catching up, so I'm sorry for the delay. Humblefish has given you great advice there. It's right along with what I would suggest as well. I would not consider leaving the firefish in the display as they will allow the ick life cycle to continue whether they display symptoms or not.

I'm VERY GLAD you're back!!! :):):)

 

[Congaken]

Hi Ken! I just got back from vacation and I'm catching up, so I'm sorry for the delay. Humblefish has given you great advice there. It's right along with what I would suggest as well. I would not consider leaving the firefish in the display as they will allow the ick life cycle to continue whether they display symptoms or not.

This morning, my Kole and my RG are totally covered in ich...that's in .4 Cupramine...yesterday the Kole at least looked like he's doing better...what now?:(

 

[Brew12]

This morning, my Kole and my RG are totally covered in ich...that's in .4 Cupramine...yesterday the Kole at least looked like he's doing better...what now?:(

I have a feeling they are going to recommend posting pictures so they can get a better idea of what you are dealing with.
I would remind you that you can't actually see ich, you see the fishes biological response to ich. If you just put them in copper yesterday (if I followed things correctly) it is possible that they are just now showing the signs of ich that started attacking them pre-copper.

 

[Congaken]

I have a feeling they are going to recommend posting pictures so they can get a better idea of what you are dealing with.
I would remind you that you can't actually see ich, you see the fishes biological response to ich. If you just put them in copper yesterday (if I followed things correctly) it is possible that they are just now showing the signs of ich that started attacking them pre-copper.

Put them into copper on Friday the 16th...started about .35...now up to 4+...

 

[Congaken]

Put them into copper on Friday the 16th...started about .35...now up to 4+...

Looking at pics...thinking now about velvet...the millions of spots came on overnight and after upping the copper...almost gone from the tang's skin...

 

[Congaken]

Hi Ken! I just got back from vacation and I'm catching up, so I'm sorry for the delay. Humblefish has given you great advice there. It's right along with what I would suggest as well. I would not consider leaving the firefish in the display as they will allow the ick life cycle to continue whether they display symptoms or not.

Meridith...as you can see, it is undoubtedly velvet...let me tell you where things are at and you (please) tell me if there's anything I can do...both fish are laying down or resting on the bottom upright...they are in .4+ cupramine...the dots are mostly gone...the tang scurries about if disturbed...otherwise no one is swimming...HF talks about different treatments for different stages...not sure that they would survive much at this point but I do have ParaGuard (Sea Chem) and Ruby Reef Rally which is acroflavin and formalin...so...what would your and/or HF advise be at this point...?...Thanks, Ken:(