sixty_reefer
5000 Club Member
Am confused, what is a cycle stall and what it got to do with all the threads shared? Also why is it aimed at retailers, can’t understand the goal of the thread.
If you sell bottle bac as a retailer, or if you make it and sell it to retailers, read this thread
- Thread starter brandon429
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Alexreefer
Coral, Coral, Coral!!!
I can understand this. Before Brandon helped me with my dino problem I had asked around and lots of people even my LFs said my cycle has stopped and allowed dinos in. Wasting my money I went and bought bottled bac left and right. I feel that we become impatient and want our tank to be fish ready as fast as possible.
OP
OP
Alex
Thank you friend I refer people in private messages to your dinos thread work on a near weekly basis.
Sixty:
best summary-
Bottle bac is being grossly misused in the hobby and bottle bac makers put out videos that make claims which reinforce doubt in a cycle, sales motivation develops. Bottle bac can be designed solely for cycling, or it can be strains designed for use after cycling, where bottle bac would eat or outcompete dinos or cyano in the aquarium.
Skimming all reef forums online reveals permeation of the notion that minor variances in arrangement will stall a cycle, we add more bottle bac to unstall it. Thousands of reefers are paying for something they don't need.
The only place immune to stalled cycles is a macna convention, where money changes hands. cycle skippers have been legitimate and under our noses this whole time, but not pointed out by bottle bac sellers who list ways a cycle stalls while at the skip cycle convention. <—- admit that’s funny
If you're in a forum, you cycle in fear of incompletion and posters remind you of the risk.
Bottle bac has legit uses, outlined so far. Battling dinos or cyano using strains not intended for cycling is a neat use for bottled bac
The linked threads are work examples where we will add a bioload without caring what a test kit says, using either live rock or dry systems, since cycles can’t stall. Their animals will die in two days if the tank wasn’t cycled and we can see that loss happen in real time. We’re not using lab data here, we use aquariums as cycle examples and living or dead animals to deem a cycle complete.
we think only seneye or mindstream are worth seeing anyway.
formal prediction:
in five more years the notion of a stalled cycle will be gone. Replaced by bottle bac sellers on the basis of increasing diversity or meeting a measured deficit. Either way, they’re going to be paid for creating a perception and we will pay it.
Thank you friend I refer people in private messages to your dinos thread work on a near weekly basis.
Sixty:
best summary-
Bottle bac is being grossly misused in the hobby and bottle bac makers put out videos that make claims which reinforce doubt in a cycle, sales motivation develops. Bottle bac can be designed solely for cycling, or it can be strains designed for use after cycling, where bottle bac would eat or outcompete dinos or cyano in the aquarium.
Skimming all reef forums online reveals permeation of the notion that minor variances in arrangement will stall a cycle, we add more bottle bac to unstall it. Thousands of reefers are paying for something they don't need.
The only place immune to stalled cycles is a macna convention, where money changes hands. cycle skippers have been legitimate and under our noses this whole time, but not pointed out by bottle bac sellers who list ways a cycle stalls while at the skip cycle convention. <—- admit that’s funny
If you're in a forum, you cycle in fear of incompletion and posters remind you of the risk.
Bottle bac has legit uses, outlined so far. Battling dinos or cyano using strains not intended for cycling is a neat use for bottled bac
The linked threads are work examples where we will add a bioload without caring what a test kit says, using either live rock or dry systems, since cycles can’t stall. Their animals will die in two days if the tank wasn’t cycled and we can see that loss happen in real time. We’re not using lab data here, we use aquariums as cycle examples and living or dead animals to deem a cycle complete.
we think only seneye or mindstream are worth seeing anyway.
formal prediction:
in five more years the notion of a stalled cycle will be gone. Replaced by bottle bac sellers on the basis of increasing diversity or meeting a measured deficit. Either way, they’re going to be paid for creating a perception and we will pay it.
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shookONES
Active Member
I don’t see anyone stocking a (traditional) uncycled tank with any fish of notable rarity, sensitivity, or value. Stocking a fresh tank with soft corals and damsels and sayings it’s established holds little weight in my eyes.
OP
OP
thats fair. We need to put a damsel in an uncycled five gallon tank and see how long it lives as a baseline, they’re tough fish. Prediction, 48 hours. (But it’s mean to kill fish- how else to measure the base claim that organisms die really fast in an uncycled tank if in doubt...I don’t doubt it having seen cycle threads)
even a handful of sacrificial clean up crew members, put fifteen in an uncycled nano of dry sand dry rocks we can track water clarity and if they get out past two days. Any linked reef can input the cuc as cycle proof test. Uncycled in reefing is nothing like uncycled in freshwater, results are fast to all fish and marine life.
even a handful of sacrificial clean up crew members, put fifteen in an uncycled nano of dry sand dry rocks we can track water clarity and if they get out past two days. Any linked reef can input the cuc as cycle proof test. Uncycled in reefing is nothing like uncycled in freshwater, results are fast to all fish and marine life.
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sixty_reefer
5000 Club Member
Apologies but am still confused, could you define what you mean by cycle stall? What courses a cycle stall? And what retailers are claiming that doesn’t work?
OP
OP
Read on reefcentral, nano-reef.com, ultimatereef, thereeftank and let me know these answers you see in pattern:
are any of their cycles taking longer than 30 days? Do they have thread titles listed as stalled cycle or incomplete cycle? How does the public define a stalled cycle?
does nitrite play a role in allowing a start in forums?
what are the posters claiming to cause the condition in the thread?
what ways have retailers mentioned a cycle can stall that you have seen or read? After reading forums for 30 mins let me know if you see this pattern:
- all inquiries are answered with a simple date on a calendar they can start. Posters are in unison as to when the tank is ready.
- do cycles listed take the same amount of time, or vary wildly in forums?
- can you see examples of people purchasing bottle bac from different brands, to remedy a .25 ammonia reading? What brand test kit is all six million search returns lol right
provide a few standout links you discover and we will review them here. My thread here is merely a reflection of patterns I see daily in all reef forums vs when I went to aquashella and saw skip cycle dry rock and live rock systems.
here are some current cycle questions active right now from other forums. Are these tanks on track to miss, or make a convention start date? If they did win a convention invite, how will they pull it off with the current arrangement if the start date is, Tuesday.
are any of their cycles taking longer than 30 days? Do they have thread titles listed as stalled cycle or incomplete cycle? How does the public define a stalled cycle?
does nitrite play a role in allowing a start in forums?
what are the posters claiming to cause the condition in the thread?
what ways have retailers mentioned a cycle can stall that you have seen or read? After reading forums for 30 mins let me know if you see this pattern:
- all inquiries are answered with a simple date on a calendar they can start. Posters are in unison as to when the tank is ready.
- do cycles listed take the same amount of time, or vary wildly in forums?
- can you see examples of people purchasing bottle bac from different brands, to remedy a .25 ammonia reading? What brand test kit is all six million search returns lol right
provide a few standout links you discover and we will review them here. My thread here is merely a reflection of patterns I see daily in all reef forums vs when I went to aquashella and saw skip cycle dry rock and live rock systems.
here are some current cycle questions active right now from other forums. Are these tanks on track to miss, or make a convention start date? If they did win a convention invite, how will they pull it off with the current arrangement if the start date is, Tuesday.
cycle question - Reef Central Online Community
cycle question The Reef Chemistry Forum
reefcentral.com
High nitrites - Reef Central Online Community
High nitrites The Reef Chemistry Forum
reefcentral.com
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OP
OP
Look for the love of Pete at the advert
Money is linked to the concept of stalled cycling. Not a single example above has stalled.
this anti-ad brought to you by brandon429
cycles can’t stall, but don‘t rely on ads to tell us that.
reefers themselves perpetuate the notion of a stalled cycle, no makers are present in those posts. We deserve to be billed for circulating poor data.
Money is linked to the concept of stalled cycling. Not a single example above has stalled.
this anti-ad brought to you by brandon429
cycles can’t stall, but don‘t rely on ads to tell us that.
reefers themselves perpetuate the notion of a stalled cycle, no makers are present in those posts. We deserve to be billed for circulating poor data.
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sixty_reefer
5000 Club Member
It could be a good discussion, but the basis aren’t right you Basically using information from new reefers to back up your theory. Anyone with enough experience wouldn’t have any issues in cycling a tank and knowing what’s happening to it.
OP
OP
They're not the ones furiously buying up bottle bac. Agreed, a select few aren't making unneeded purchases. Where are they in those search results
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OP
OP
Cycling problems.
Hey guys, I was hoping someone could help. I'm currently cycling my first saltwater tank (Although i have three freshwater tanks,) but i cannot for the life of me get the Nitrites to go down. I know patience is key, but it been four. months. I'm going nuts! I started the cycle by adding a dead...
www.reef2reef.com
read all of that, we prevented another unneeded purchase of bottle bac. we are stopping this trend and interjecting truth about cycling one by one team.
***see how quick a cycle diagnosis works? we can tell if your cycle is complete by how long your tank is underwater and what boosters you used, ***testing does not matter in cycling*** we can cycle any aquarium off time factors alone, says every cycling chart in the world. solving for number of days underwater on the left side of a cycling chart also solves for ammonia and nitrite
is there any hesitation there above from me? post #4, you are cycled and can begin. that isn't how this hobby works, we toil and falsely measure ourself into doubt, then a key word search, then a click, and awaiting delivery of bottle bac all when not needed at all.
cycles cannot stall, Im going to paypal that aquarist if their starting bioload dies.
I will pay to prove we are getting taken lock stock and bottle.
bottle bac sellers, why aren't you commenting here we need your input and measure.
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OP
OP
@BRS can we get some input on your take on the matter
you own lots of seneye monitors or at least have access to them Im assuming, isnt it true that its not possible to arrange a stalled cycle no matter how you approach it, when using rocks and sand>?
isnt it true that no cycles can stall, its not that some stall here and there, its that stalled cycle is a totally false notion propping up sales, and we're making counter calls left and right, and anyone with a seneye backs up these claims, is that right>?
How many cycling examples do we predict Ill have edited into this thread by June
prediction, this is how all future examples will pan out:
1. My cycle is stalled/stuck/nitrite/ammonia etc.
-no its not, add some starting bioload and it will live.
-they do, and it lives. we track their tank doing just fine while mocking the concepts that would have had them doubt further, and make a purchase. end of issue. I post this on everyone's macna youtube comments only to be ignored, but readers still know whats up, and one day sheer momentum makes a change in the hobby.
someone go find a thread on any forum they want inspected for stalling, post that rascal right here. its already deemed not stalled, but we'll need to see your example to point out the recurring reasons why. if its not a forum Im banned from Ill resume posting and offering paypal proofs right on their thread.
you own lots of seneye monitors or at least have access to them Im assuming, isnt it true that its not possible to arrange a stalled cycle no matter how you approach it, when using rocks and sand>?
isnt it true that no cycles can stall, its not that some stall here and there, its that stalled cycle is a totally false notion propping up sales, and we're making counter calls left and right, and anyone with a seneye backs up these claims, is that right>?
How many cycling examples do we predict Ill have edited into this thread by June
prediction, this is how all future examples will pan out:
1. My cycle is stalled/stuck/nitrite/ammonia etc.
-no its not, add some starting bioload and it will live.
-they do, and it lives. we track their tank doing just fine while mocking the concepts that would have had them doubt further, and make a purchase. end of issue. I post this on everyone's macna youtube comments only to be ignored, but readers still know whats up, and one day sheer momentum makes a change in the hobby.
someone go find a thread on any forum they want inspected for stalling, post that rascal right here. its already deemed not stalled, but we'll need to see your example to point out the recurring reasons why. if its not a forum Im banned from Ill resume posting and offering paypal proofs right on their thread.
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amps
Active Member
I quick cycle dedicated QT tanks whenever I get new fish. I've tried every bottled bacteria product on the market and while some help, only Nutrafin Cycle and Dr Tims have given me solid results.
I add 2ppm ammonia, dump the required bacteria into the tank and 7-10 days later the tank is fully cycled. My definition of cycled is the ability to process 2ppm ammonia in 12hrs or less. When I've tried cycling without bottled bacteria, the process take 3-4 weeks minimum to get to the same processing time. I don't care about stalling or anything else that happens in between, all I care is that the tank can handle heavy bioload and how long it takes to get there.
The other products (Stability, Fritz, Brightwell XLM, Aquavitro Seed and more) cut down the total time by 5-7 days.
Is it worth it to use a quality bottled bacteria? For me, absolutely.
I add 2ppm ammonia, dump the required bacteria into the tank and 7-10 days later the tank is fully cycled. My definition of cycled is the ability to process 2ppm ammonia in 12hrs or less. When I've tried cycling without bottled bacteria, the process take 3-4 weeks minimum to get to the same processing time. I don't care about stalling or anything else that happens in between, all I care is that the tank can handle heavy bioload and how long it takes to get there.
The other products (Stability, Fritz, Brightwell XLM, Aquavitro Seed and more) cut down the total time by 5-7 days.
Is it worth it to use a quality bottled bacteria? For me, absolutely.
OP
OP
I accept that for sure, you've listed the comfortable start dates and they're reasonable. we wouldn't be fretting six weeks past those dates over a light blue reading on a nitrite kit to see if things die, your tank could indeed make a macna start date; you'd add the bottle bac 6 days before start date then move it all over ready, I agree. thank you for posting Amps
**testing for ammonia movement is how we know we didn't input dead bottle bac, agreed testing can help proof
where we diverge from the norm is getting to zero, we don't require it as we think only seneye and mindstream will show a true zero to 2oo cyclers. if 200 cyclers are using api or red sea, half think they're stalled, and none are stalled.
the only modification I would add to the post above is when ammonia moves down to any measurable degree, from 2ppm, that means cycled. no zero required-if the tester shows zero then that's great. movement is proof. all starting bioload will live, convention start dates can be met, in that specific condition.
**testing for ammonia movement is how we know we didn't input dead bottle bac, agreed testing can help proof
where we diverge from the norm is getting to zero, we don't require it as we think only seneye and mindstream will show a true zero to 2oo cyclers. if 200 cyclers are using api or red sea, half think they're stalled, and none are stalled.
the only modification I would add to the post above is when ammonia moves down to any measurable degree, from 2ppm, that means cycled. no zero required-if the tester shows zero then that's great. movement is proof. all starting bioload will live, convention start dates can be met, in that specific condition.
OP
OP
Bio-spira works great
I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.
www.reef2reef.com
OP
OP
There it is, done right there. fish plus anemone on day one. all dry surface start. only bottle bac carried $300 in instant start animals.
Don't think Im advocating anarchy, what I do is force seemingly opposing claims into the same thread and bring them to account to find a truth or as close as we can get to one
Dr Tims on the instructions allows for fish-in cycling, that's because if the bottle bac isn't totally dead, today's science can 100% contain ammonia instantly with bottle bac, we could do that ten years ago.
its only the separation from subjective titration testing that's taking an extra ten years, Im pointing out fallacies that have existed a long time in our hobby.
only ammonia matters in cycling, those bottle bac do not give in a single shot all the required bac for systemic balance over the course of the reef. Those fill in later, along with nitrite producers etc, and the only required start in reefing is ammonia control or no reef at macna could ever be instantly set up by the start date. If cycles varied, all the tanks at macna wanting to sell us stuff would show up at staggered times. but we walk in the door in awe, and full instant reefs are there, for sale.
It is wise to verify ammonia movement in any skip cycle reef before adding bioload. only movement down from a prior setpoint is required, no zero required, change out the filthy test water and refill, then reef. that's where we are at in 2020 cycling in my opinion.
Adding fish too soon kills fish by skipping qt and fallow protocols, via disease, it has nothing to do with stuck cycles anymore that has been a fallacy I can be found grandstanding against online for fifteen years. mainly at nano-reef.com lol.
Don't think Im advocating anarchy, what I do is force seemingly opposing claims into the same thread and bring them to account to find a truth or as close as we can get to one
Dr Tims on the instructions allows for fish-in cycling, that's because if the bottle bac isn't totally dead, today's science can 100% contain ammonia instantly with bottle bac, we could do that ten years ago.
its only the separation from subjective titration testing that's taking an extra ten years, Im pointing out fallacies that have existed a long time in our hobby.
only ammonia matters in cycling, those bottle bac do not give in a single shot all the required bac for systemic balance over the course of the reef. Those fill in later, along with nitrite producers etc, and the only required start in reefing is ammonia control or no reef at macna could ever be instantly set up by the start date. If cycles varied, all the tanks at macna wanting to sell us stuff would show up at staggered times. but we walk in the door in awe, and full instant reefs are there, for sale.
It is wise to verify ammonia movement in any skip cycle reef before adding bioload. only movement down from a prior setpoint is required, no zero required, change out the filthy test water and refill, then reef. that's where we are at in 2020 cycling in my opinion.
Adding fish too soon kills fish by skipping qt and fallow protocols, via disease, it has nothing to do with stuck cycles anymore that has been a fallacy I can be found grandstanding against online for fifteen years. mainly at nano-reef.com lol.
OP
OP
Im paying paypal bounties for proof of stuck cycles, never saw anybody do that before.
wheres the entrants, link us some stuck cycles team. Its not that i have free cash to fund everyone's cycle, its that Im certain nobody with a seneye can make a stalled cycle happen using typical arrangements and time, so that reliability is what saves me from having to pay everyone out.
if I get caught though lol Ill pay once then go back and edit it out you can bet
there arent any stuck cycles though, bait has been cast to the whole world. lemme have em
mythbusters would take time to construct the fallacy and make it occur. this is what I predict can make a stuck cycle, am not paying for any variation outside of normal arrangements, this goal is to prove rocks and sand can't fail to cycle:
-a reef tank of dry rocks and dry sand and saltwater is setup, and on day one enough ammonia to bring up levels to seneye .25 are added. it will persist for a while since no bacteria were dosed, and natural contaminations take time to establish. it will take as long as a cycle chart shows for ammonia to comply.
-any form of medication can alter cycling. it takes pretty much that to veer a cycle off course.
-isolations in surface area and/or current can stall a cycle, but that isn't how we cycle tanks. Nobody cycles a totally empty 100 gallon tank, plumbed to a sump, and only one bag of siporax resting in the center of the sump. You can't expose all the surrounding water through the center of that bag of siporax, it'll flow all around it too, decrease efficiency, and that setup might indeed take a while to clear .25 worth of ammonia.
----totally stilled systems, or such current reduction that water doesnt move across surfaces efficiently sure might stall a cycle.
Try and find one single stuck cycle post on the internet that meets these conditions. post that thread. they're all rock and sand cycles, well past the conclusion date from all having used some form of paid-for boosting, either as totally live rock or bottle bac already in place.
wheres the entrants, link us some stuck cycles team. Its not that i have free cash to fund everyone's cycle, its that Im certain nobody with a seneye can make a stalled cycle happen using typical arrangements and time, so that reliability is what saves me from having to pay everyone out.
if I get caught though lol Ill pay once then go back and edit it out you can bet
there arent any stuck cycles though, bait has been cast to the whole world. lemme have em
mythbusters would take time to construct the fallacy and make it occur. this is what I predict can make a stuck cycle, am not paying for any variation outside of normal arrangements, this goal is to prove rocks and sand can't fail to cycle:
-a reef tank of dry rocks and dry sand and saltwater is setup, and on day one enough ammonia to bring up levels to seneye .25 are added. it will persist for a while since no bacteria were dosed, and natural contaminations take time to establish. it will take as long as a cycle chart shows for ammonia to comply.
-any form of medication can alter cycling. it takes pretty much that to veer a cycle off course.
-isolations in surface area and/or current can stall a cycle, but that isn't how we cycle tanks. Nobody cycles a totally empty 100 gallon tank, plumbed to a sump, and only one bag of siporax resting in the center of the sump. You can't expose all the surrounding water through the center of that bag of siporax, it'll flow all around it too, decrease efficiency, and that setup might indeed take a while to clear .25 worth of ammonia.
----totally stilled systems, or such current reduction that water doesnt move across surfaces efficiently sure might stall a cycle.
Try and find one single stuck cycle post on the internet that meets these conditions. post that thread. they're all rock and sand cycles, well past the conclusion date from all having used some form of paid-for boosting, either as totally live rock or bottle bac already in place.
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Bio-spira works great
I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.
I guess i'm confused on what point you're arguing? Iv'e setup 5 tanks from scratch ranging from 60G to 350G, i'm no expert but I will say that not once has a cycle ever been an issue. I don't even know why people debate or worry about a cycle, to me it's a one-time thing you wont even remember after 2 months. I look at it like stressing over a house closing when you buy your home; after the first two months you don't even remember it.
Every time I just followed simple steps based on some basic "how to start a reef tank" old school BRS video. My first ever tank was a 75G reef and never had issues or even think twice about cycles. Iv'e started with live rock only and dry rock only, I felt the live rock took just as long to cure/cycle and had a worse "ugly" stage than dry. Iv'e learned that dry "white" rock leaches po4 for several years and that the purple colored fake rock is my go to every single time. I scape my rock, fill with water and wait. No dead shrimp, no sacrificial fish (anyone that does this is a piece of trash btw) I use a cheapo nitrite test kit and when the result is cyan blue and no ammonia then i'm good to go. My first tank was 3 months just because that's what the video told me. I never had issues losing my initial fish that are introduced to the tank. The stalled cycles are odd to me because I feel like iv'e been reading a lot about it recently almost like it's the latest fad in this hobby. Are you saying people are wasting money trying to overcome "stalled cycles"? When I hear "stalled cycle" my brain instantly glosses over it as I instantly assume someone is just being impatient and will probably fail in this hobby and kill innocent sea life.
My last two tanks including my most recent waterbox frag 60.3 I decided to use biospira and it took roughly 2 weeks to cycle doing it this way. The one thing I noticed both times using biospira and caribsea life rock (purple painted stuff) is that I skipped the "ugly" stage. Very, very slight diatom that cleared up after my first water change. My latest tank is 1 month old right now and my SPS frags are already starting to encrust, colors look great!
Why do people stress over getting a cycle done in 3 days on a tank that's going to take years for corals to grow? Do they not understand the hobby they are getting themselves into?
Can't tell if we are hating on cycle time frames, bottled bac or dry vs live rock. So far based on my experiences, dry rock with bottled bac and patience is a winning combo. Dry rock allows creative aquascapes so it's always a winner in my book.
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