If you sell bottle bac as a retailer, or if you make it and sell it to retailers, read this thread

[brandon429]

10g Nano - High Nitrites(NO2) ~5ppm+, No ammonia & minimal Nitrates(NO3) ~<6ppm

Hey fellow reefers, I've very new to aquarium hobby and I have a (maybe stupid) cycling question. I've had my tank cycling for past 3.5 weeks and now my Nitrites(NO2) are extremely high(full purple) for past 1 week. I have very minimal to low algae growth. Equipment used. - Dry rocks and Dry...

www.reef2reef.com

This hobby is absolutely filled with people who think their cycle has stalled


MACNA talks said cycles stall, but that’s in a warehouse sized room of 500 retail tanks selling stuff who had no trouble not stalling, and attaining the start date on time for the convention. All 500


I want to know why we have been told that cycles stall in reefing, they do not.

as we proceed debating about whether cycles can stall, ask yourself if it’s possible I have 100 of these examples where they did not stall to show patterns with.


we use bottle bac once, to start a dry rock tank only. We do not keep chasing numbers by repurchasing it. Live rock systems do not need boosting with bottle bac, you can tell if a rock is cycled when living things had time to attach to it.



nitrite will never factor in a cycle anymore than argon factors into a cycle.

the bacteria that regulate nitrite and twenty other compounds do take weeks to build, but only ammonia control matters in cycling.

all google cycle charts for cycling come from books fifty years back that don’t permit ammonia behaving any other way than shown, you have a time axis on every cycling chart that tells your parameters as a cross reference. Being told to input 2 ppm ammonia using testers that may input as high as eight while reading as two is why all forum cycling seems to vary, yet irl MACNA all starts on the same date.

when I see people making purchases out of a perceived consequence that isn’t real, I get science mad.


time to balance the scales

 

[brandon429]

I am about to load this rascal down with cycle examples who were just about to go out and buy more bottle bac, but we stopped them just in time and they kept their money.

 

[shookONES]

Tanks setup to run for 48-72 hours and a long term aquarium in someone’s home are two drastically different things.

 

[brandon429]

Great point. I’ll open with this:

Two Month Update on the One-Day Nano Reef Tank Build [Video] | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

It’s never been easier to set up a reef tank and this is precisely what we set out to demonstrate in our recent build of starter nano reef tank. In less than 24 hours we took a Red Sea Max Nano from…

reefbuilders.com

when is it going to die, and how will that look as it begins

did Jakes reef stall? Did he use the MACNA assembly technique


when someone moves a reef to a new home, does that start a lifespan countdown

 

[brandon429]

(But that’s moving fully live rock, not the same as dry tanks. They stall)


Here is a totally dry start no stall anemone on day 1 MACNA ready reef, at home.

Bio-spira works great

Nice. What happened to the flame angel and the original clown? I sold all 3. The flame was picking at corals and my wife really wanted B&W B&W clowns. I actually just last night sold the kole tang as well. I added a small hippo tang and it tried to kill it so I took out the kole. I also have 2...

www.reef2reef.com

do bottle bac makers and sellers help us distinguish between types of systems that need their product, and those that don’t? No.

 

[brandon429]

@shoelaceike I told ya that reef you made was important to the hobby



we want to thank you for using bottle bac correctly. Once, in a dry start system.

 

[piranhaman00]

I see you have had enough of these threads! Haha

 

[brandon429]

I demand to know right now if we are getting retail tricked.

 

[brandon429]

No seneye or mindstream user in brief history ever reported a stuck cycle. Cycle stalling is 100% exclusively a domain for comparing a liquid titration reading to a test card.

remember that one internet viral pic where nobody agreed upon the dress having gold or brown stripes lol

but if I want to use a nine dollar tester to undo fifty years of microbiology, an entire segment of the hobby online will readily accept it, and pay. All you have to do is type .25 or .5 and every poster agrees your bacteria need a supplement.


forums: NO cycles occur consistently. They range from weeks to months until allowed start.

marine conventions: been making start dates for twenty years no prob when $ are on the line.

yep, I’m certain we are getting misled.

 

[piranhaman00]

I think what people confuse for a stalled cycle is the process of nitrite converting to nitrate. IME this takes longer then NH4 to NO2. I consider the tank to be cycled when there is no detectable ammonia or nitrite. I know you say that NO2 means nothing when cycling which is fine but I think the confusion lies in this NO2 to NO3 process that can take some extra time.

But yes, cycles cannot stall

 

[Saveafish]

In the old days I got a 6 pack of beer and peed in the tank. Boom baby

 

[StatelineReefer]

If we're going to continue threads like this... Data please. Not anecdotes. I don't want to hear about how some reefkeeper did this and that. I want spreadsheets or I will not be convinced.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

Se

In the old days I got a 6 pack of beer and peed in the tank. Boom baby

second time TONIGHT now, I have read something about someone peeing in a tank for ammonia haha what is going on!?

 

[brandon429]

State line I could not possibly agree more.

when we were told that nitrite stalls cycles, no data exists for it in reefing and in fact counter data exists in the form of a hundred examples I have where we cycle just fine never measuring for it. All of MACNA never factors it when they set up skip cycle tanks to sell us twelve thousand dollar anemones.


im sure nitrite affects a cycle in a lab, on a teased-out Petri dish where pure liquid nitrite is dumped on specimens not in a biofilm, in that arrangement nitrite can stall a cycle by affecting ammonia control. Not in any other arrangement


there are at least 500 seneye owners, can we get just one to post their cycle graph, .25 will be just a data plot that changed shortly after.


i send out posts like this to gain the data you are asking for.

if y’all want to see data, head to new reef forum here and watch stuck cycle posts unfold. They’re a mix of doubt, titration hesitation, and unsure start dates. As we read, ask ourselves if the tank would be able to make the MACNA start date if they were heading that way. If not, try and imagine what it would take to help the reefer meet a set start date *then post it* don’t make a milquetoast guess about roughly when it might be ready, simply state the start date.



cycles don’t stall, not once. Not ever has one stalled unless they turned water into cleaning solution by inputting so much ammonia. Dr. Reefs bottle bac thread tested out to 8 ppm and each test tank still cycled. Bottle bac labels say five ppm will suppress, stall.


ignoring nitrite, Daniel indeed would make the MACNA start date here. His tester shows nitrite, it doesn’t matter. He probably has measurable argon gas too, to some degree.
His specific start date was right when he paid for skip cycle bottle bac.

Cycling a new Biocube 32

It's true eventually testing for all the params and using dosers and absorbers to alter water reduces water changes, but intitial success is the other way, it's the wax on wax off way :) then in half a year you can go to cobra kai param testers dojo miyagi do reefs by feel and visual cues.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

I want bottle bac makers and sellers to quit injecting doubt into the hobby so that we disregard fifty year established cycling charts and buy their stuff.


making us think cycles stall + using inaccurate testers sells bottle bac really really really really well.

the only time we should be purchasing cycling bottle bac is to opt out of the natural wait periods shown on those cycle charts *when using dry rocks* Buy them once, use them, proceed to reef. Don’t add fish until you read the fish disease forum and make a choice on fallow or not

if someone has paid sixty bucks for a huge bottle of fritz 9 and is still hesitating twenty days later due to param measures, you can thank api and MACNA talk videos saying cycles stall when they purchase another bottle. Of course we can assess ammonia control/not a dead bottle of bac before we add things, but we don’t look for zero ammonia on most testers, we only have to see downward motion from a starting point / no zero required.

 

[brandon429]

This is me trying to get attacked in the chemistry forum by stating nobody has a true stuck .25 or .5 measure unless it’s api. They didn’t attack.

We should use the collective power of the chem forum to prove or deny the possibility of sustained .25 ammonia in reefing

Why does it matter if reef tanks can have stuck cycles? Because when you move homes you don't want to lose animals, cycling science needs precision and predictability in order to protect our tanks. perhaps an emergency setup is needed, no wait time permitted or If you are invited to show...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

The MACNA cycle video saying reef water doesn’t carry nitrifers is being tested here, do watch this one. If you can cycle a reef by inputting reef water from an sps tank, and you can wait 30 days like a cycle chart, then no purchase of bottle bac is required.


“reef tank water doesn’t have nitrifiers“ specifically creates a void to be filled with a purchase. If I’m not mistaken, Aquabiomics has already measured nitrifers in reef water. Below is another measure using two reefs, one old and one new with all dry materials.

I want to prove or disprove by accurate measure (work threads must suffice until someone posts a seneye measure) for once that cycles don’t stall, bac aren’t destined by fish food we choose to add or withhold, nitrite doesn’t need to be tested for, all cycles have a predetermined end date reflected in MACNA conventions, live rock doesn’t need more help we already paid for ‘live’, and bottle bac sellers are cashing in and not telling us accurate microbiology when they see the patterns plain as day in forums.

Connecting Established Reef To New Tank

So ill give you an update on my woes. Lol. I finally have a hold on my acros, I lost 10 during my addition. It took me a few days to finally get the sodium nitrate in. I recieved it wed and started dosing immediately. Now I have my nitrates at 8 and po4 about .15 and my lights are dimmed to...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

Surely there is a mindstream user out there determined to uphold the stuck cycle possibility


I’ll PayPal forty bucks one time / not a millionaire / if anyone can show how inputting any typical arrangement of cycling materials we see on threads can ever stall and hold ammonia for days. Forty bucks to prove a stuck cycle on seneye or mindstream to first taker

ante= upped but since I don’t own a seneye or ms or api must leave room for failed prediction... it’s why I didn’t bet a hundred. I think twenty years of thread pattern observations is worth a quick forty bucks on the line though. When a cycle permits downward motion of a reasonable reference amount of ammonia, it goes down and doesn’t hover in the tenths. Only a bare surface area or medicated system can do that, or possibly one with such current lacking the waste isn’t passed over surfaces. There might be some arrangement trick to get a stall reported on seneye, but I predict current / meds/ surface area will be atypical in the test.

 

[ScottR]

I typically hate replying to these threads but once cycled, a tank is cycled. I’ve heard of a mini cycle after a tank was supposedly cycled but a cycled tank stays cycled. I’ve started many tanks. I’d say we look too much into cycling. I think many people like to add nitrifying bacteria in an attempt to lower nitrates but I don’t believe that’s any use.

 

[brandon429]

I also support bottle bac strains that are competing organisms to cyano and dino challenges, or sludge digesters. reducing detritus into bac mass if possible to help reduce water change needs is helpful science. Nano keepers can still just change water and clean the sand to avoid buying bac, but large tankers have a hard time with access, legit need filled.

those invaders are a true loss of money and enjoyment to large tankers, my beef is nitrification doubt causing total misinformation right up front to new aquarists. They spend their first few years thinking bacteria have no adaptive traits beyond what we will into the tank, hesitancy absolutely wrecks reef aquariums and day one hesitancy is the notion of Ill stall my cycle if I mess up. You can’t stall it even if you mess up~no telling what filthy wastewater might read after several days of stewing...simply change wastewater for new, reference the #days axis on the left side of a cycle chart, and know your params.

i hope the overall tone of the thread here isn’t insulting to anyone it’s just a challenge to a long-standing paradigm with hopes of increasing efficiency and confidence to all new aquarists.

Solidarity in a cycle completing on a predicted date for all new aquarists can really change waste and wasteful expenditures and lost creatures.

It's fascinating sales psychology to study, go to reefcentral and pull up all cycling threads this year, skim. Total hesitancy, nobody making any start dates confidently. API rules all start dates. Dates of allowed start range a week to sixteen weeks

Check nano reef.com ultimatereef thereeftank.com and us too, confidence in a no test cycle is abhorrent to forums but it literally runs every marine convention worldwide. Humans espousing totally conflicting notions while a segment profits is very fun to point out and offer cash to measure in live time bait threads.