Indonesia coral export halted?

[Shrimpinator123]

https://reefbuilders.com/2018/05/04/there-is-no-ban-on-indonesian-corals/ Not sure if this is accurate

 

[PhreeByrd]

To those concerned only (or even just primarily) about the business end of this, or to those p1ssed off because they won't be able to put wild coral X into their little glass box of ocean next week, I have to say that you need to open your eyes and look at the bigger picture.

Reefs are dying all over the world. I won't debate the whys, but the fact is irrefutable. In the presence of man and all the abuse we throw at the oceans, we have truly endangered an already fragile ecosystem. We have to be more responsible with how we treat the oceans and the reefs and their inhabitants. This is not about lobbying or pressuring some government halfway around the world. This is about doing the right thing for its own sake. If you can't see that and follow along and be supportive, then go find your own island somewhere and live on it.

Yes, a ban like this is going to hurt and threaten some livelihoods. That's tough. You may have to change and adapt. Fortunately, you can do that. The reefs can't, at least not quickly enough to save themselves from unnatural abuse. Simple fact is that when all of the reefs are gone, so are we, so wake up and widen your view.

I don't know the reason for the Indonesian ban. I don't think anybody outside of the Indonesian government does yet. It may or may not be rooted in environmental issues, although most of the reef closures and bans we've seen have been. Until the ban is resolved and lifted, stop complaining, live with it, and find some other options.

 

[johnbr]

To those concerned only (or even just primarily) about the business end of this, or to those p1ssed off because they won't be able to put wild coral X into their little glass box of ocean next week, I have to say that you need to open your eyes and look at the bigger picture.

Reefs are dying all over the world. I won't debate the whys, but the fact is irrefutable. In the presence of man and all the abuse we throw at the oceans, we have truly endangered an already fragile ecosystem. We have to be more responsible with how we treat the oceans and the reefs and their inhabitants. This is not about lobbying or pressuring some government halfway around the world. This is about doing the right thing for its own sake. If you can't see that and follow along and be supportive, then go find your own island somewhere and live on it.

Yes, a ban like this is going to hurt and threaten some livelihoods. That's tough. You may have to change and adapt. Fortunately, you can do that. The reefs can't, at least not quickly enough to save themselves from unnatural abuse. Simple fact is that when all of the reefs are gone, so are we, so wake up and widen your view.

I don't know the reason for the Indonesian ban. I don't think anybody outside of the Indonesian government does yet. It may or may not be rooted in environmental issues, although most of the reef closures and bans we've seen have been. Until the ban is resolved and lifted, stop complaining, live with it, and find some other options.

100% Agreed

 

[andrewkw]

It's reasons like this the hobby has a hard time fighting back against these bans. While I truly believe this is a short term thing. Everything from your Lfs to even reef 2 reef is threatened by this ban that no one knows the reasoning behind. If no one new is getting into the hobby numbers will just continue to shrink.

Maybe you don't care about collectors and wholesalers halfway around the world, but what about the LFS struggling without bans and supply issues. The friends you wouldn't have if not for the hobby. All the people who develop products pumps, lighting even aquariums themselves ect.

None of this will disappear overnight but if in 10 years or even 1 year we have 80-90% less coral a lot of stuff will. You're not going to spend as much r&d on products when your market has considerably shrunk.

To those concerned only (or even just primarily) about the business end of this, or to those p1ssed off because they won't be able to put wild coral X into their little glass box of ocean next week, I have to say that you need to open your eyes and look at the bigger picture.

Reefs are dying all over the world. I won't debate the whys, but the fact is irrefutable. In the presence of man and all the abuse we throw at the oceans, we have truly endangered an already fragile ecosystem. We have to be more responsible with how we treat the oceans and the reefs and their inhabitants. This is not about lobbying or pressuring some government halfway around the world. This is about doing the right thing for its own sake. If you can't see that and follow along and be supportive, then go find your own island somewhere and live on it.

Yes, a ban like this is going to hurt and threaten some livelihoods. That's tough. You may have to change and adapt. Fortunately, you can do that. The reefs can't, at least not quickly enough to save themselves from unnatural abuse. Simple fact is that when all of the reefs are gone, so are we, so wake up and widen your view.

I don't know the reason for the Indonesian ban. I don't think anybody outside of the Indonesian government does yet. It may or may not be rooted in environmental issues, although most of the reef closures and bans we've seen have been. Until the ban is resolved and lifted, stop complaining, live with it, and find some other options.

 

[becks]

To those concerned only (or even just primarily) about the business end of this, or to those p1ssed off because they won't be able to put wild coral X into their little glass box of ocean next week, I have to say that you need to open your eyes and look at the bigger picture.

Reefs are dying all over the world. I won't debate the whys, but the fact is irrefutable. In the presence of man and all the abuse we throw at the oceans, we have truly endangered an already fragile ecosystem. We have to be more responsible with how we treat the oceans and the reefs and their inhabitants. This is not about lobbying or pressuring some government halfway around the world. This is about doing the right thing for its own sake. If you can't see that and follow along and be supportive, then go find your own island somewhere and live on it.

Yes, a ban like this is going to hurt and threaten some livelihoods. That's tough. You may have to change and adapt. Fortunately, you can do that. The reefs can't, at least not quickly enough to save themselves from unnatural abuse. Simple fact is that when all of the reefs are gone, so are we, so wake up and widen your view.

I don't know the reason for the Indonesian ban. I don't think anybody outside of the Indonesian government does yet. It may or may not be rooted in environmental issues, although most of the reef closures and bans we've seen have been. Until the ban is resolved and lifted, stop complaining, live with it, and find some other options.

Whilst I agree with you, if you look at the harvesting rules regarding coral collection, it’s actully better than the Australian method, obviously it has its pitfalls. Like I said before, maricultured coral farms are the way forward and still allows gainful employment, supply corals for the aquarium trade and possible help of natural coral reef building etc.

 

[EMeyer]

To those concerned only (or even just primarily) about the business end of this, or to those p1ssed off because they won't be able to put wild coral X into their little glass box of ocean next week, I have to say that you need to open your eyes and look at the bigger picture.

Reefs are dying all over the world. I won't debate the whys, but the fact is irrefutable. In the presence of man and all the abuse we throw at the oceans, we have truly endangered an already fragile ecosystem. We have to be more responsible with how we treat the oceans and the reefs and their inhabitants. This is not about lobbying or pressuring some government halfway around the world. This is about doing the right thing for its own sake. If you can't see that and follow along and be supportive, then go find your own island somewhere and live on it.

Yes, a ban like this is going to hurt and threaten some livelihoods. That's tough. You may have to change and adapt. Fortunately, you can do that. The reefs can't, at least not quickly enough to save themselves from unnatural abuse. Simple fact is that when all of the reefs are gone, so are we, so wake up and widen your view.

I don't know the reason for the Indonesian ban. I don't think anybody outside of the Indonesian government does yet. It may or may not be rooted in environmental issues, although most of the reef closures and bans we've seen have been. Until the ban is resolved and lifted, stop complaining, live with it, and find some other options.

Obviously reefs are in trouble. But with respect, I dont think its the opposition thats failing to see the bigger picture here. Its the banners and closers.

If a forest is threatened by disease, banning logging may feel good to the banners. Not so good to the industry destroyed by the ban, but at least the banners get to feel good about themselves for "helping the planet". Meanwhile, if disease is the actual threat, then banning logging does nothing to save the forest.

Corals arent threatened by over collection. Full stop.

Corals are threatened by (a) local runoff and (b) rising global temperatures. Banning coral collection does literally nothing to protect them from the actual threats.

Perhaps youd prefer a medical analogy. Banning coral collections is like a patient who was just diagnosed with an inoperable brain cancer, and decides they need to cut gluten out of their diet in order to live. It wont help the patient live now. It wouldnt have helped the patient live before the diagnosis. Gluten was never the problem; cancer was.

Coral reefs are in big trouble. Banning collections will do nothing about that, and collections werent the problem in the first place.

 

[Turbo's Aquatics]

Corals arent threatened by over collection. Full stop.

Coral reefs are in big trouble. Banning collections will do nothing about that, and collections werent the problem in the first place.

^^^^^this

Regarding the ecosystem, I would argue that our ecosystem is actually extremely robust. Look at what we’ve thrown at it. If it were fragile, it would have quickly crumbled upon any adverse interaction whatsoever. In contrast, specific location mass bleaching events have occurred in the past and those reefs have recovered. So who is to say what is going to happen for sure. Not saying we shouldn’t take steps to do the right thing and mitigate disaster, but the extreme steps that are being taken (pushed by those taking an extreme stance) are not the way to do it. That’s why I will never, ever take the side of any of these types of extremist groups. Their motives are not based on common sense and science. They are based on money, politics, and control using altruism as shield.

 

[wesman42]

^^^^^this

Regarding the ecosystem, I would argue that our ecosystem is actually extremely robust. Look at what we’ve thrown at it. If it were fragile, it would have quickly crumbled upon any adverse interaction whatsoever. In contrast, specific location mass bleaching events have occurred in the past and those reefs have recovered. So who is to say what is going to happen for sure. Not saying we shouldn’t take steps to do the right thing and mitigate disaster, but the extreme steps that are being taken (pushed by those taking an extreme stance) are not the way to do it. That’s why I will never, ever take the side of any of these types of extremist groups. Their motives are not based on common sense and science. They are based on money, politics, and control using altruism as shield.

I think you have a good middle of the road opinion. Finding Coral was a Netflix documentary that came out early this year. I encourage you to watch it, as the team of scientists (from Hawaii, most of them are hobbyists themselves) take a look at the LARGEST bleaching event in history....and what types of causes (possibly air travel etc) are conjectured to cause them.

I can say that Indonesia has *keyword* sustainability in mind through planning with CITES.

However, you must be careful in the aspect that the bleaching happening this century IS NOT normal. I'm of the opinion that it's caused by large-scale pollution and over-fishing as the planet's human populous is also higher than ever.

Our hobby, if not just for looks, contains so many passionate people who care for the ocean. If given a chance, I'm certain tons of people would be willing to re-seed coral reefs around the world with this great hobby we all enjoy so much.

So blaming the hobby by cutting off exports? Doing more harm than good because most people wouldn't pay so much money to kill a coral off.

Blaming other causes? I think it's worth exploring, however unfortunately our hobby is an easy target for that reason....we're ultimately importing them for hobby.

 

[Turbo's Aquatics]

I’m in agreement with you as population and pollution are high on the list of possibilities, and this hobby is about as far down on the list as you can get when you consider everything.

What really needs to happen, IMO, is all of the coral industry in the South Pacific need to get together and become one large conglomerate so that everything falls under one set of permits for exporting and collection, and then they can run one large sustainability program compassing a huge area. Power in numbers is the only way to make it work now.

 

[tripdad]

This issue is not be about lobbying and bullying foreign governments. No-one suggested it is. But we as a group must band together and educate those that make laws. They cannot know it all or be experts on every issue. To blindly believe that they do is just ludicrous. We are losing because we, as the human race, are not acting in the best interest of all. Coral, sea life collection is no different than harvesting any other animal on this planet so long as it's done correctly and with limits that actually make sense. The commercial shrimping industry kills more in by-catch than the entire "hobby" industry does. That's just one facet of the commercial food side of things. You want to hold up "science" as an argument as man causing global warming and massive bleaching events but deny the " science" when it says that some fisheries are sustainable for the ornamental collection trade. Or when it shows that coral collectors are having a net positive effect on the reefs. Take just one of the larger mariculture facilities in Indonesia. The racks and racks of man proppogated corals provide homes, opportunities for countless life forms that would not exist otherwise. It gives those people a way to earn a living from the sea that does not deplete the natural reefs as does commercial fishing. Instead it creates homes for juvenile fish, etc. It multiplies the number of corals that may spawn and form new wild corals that are not being harvested. Coral spawn that drifts off and re-populates the reef. Heck, one cruise ship dumps more garbage or crushes more reef if it goes off coarse and runs aground. Are we screaming to ban all cruise ships or commercial fishing vessels? No, we are not! Let's get real and admit we are an easy target. Our collective impact can be controlled, adjusted to sustainable practices if we choose. You will never see commercial fishing brought to sustainable levels because MONEY talks. The "activist" know this and know they are incapable of changing that fact so they go after the easy target, the hobbyist. Because we are not fighting back! Most in the hobby are not advocating the raping of the oceans. We know things must be done responsibly. We are in agreement that we MUST become better stewards. That we must advance aquaculture and mariculture. But knee jerk reactions based on fearmongering is not going to advance those aims. They simply will stifle efforts, remove incentives to advance all positive avenues. You cannot destroy the marketplace and then expect it to continue advancing the science with no possibility of reward. If you want to quote "science" then you can't invalidate the "science" when it doesn't give you the result that supports your argument. That is what's been happening for years. "We are going to study how man made global warming is destroying the oceans" is not a hypothesis, it's an agenda. "We are going to study the effects of temperature rise on ocean health and it's possible causes" is an honest question. Rant over!

 

[Turbo's Aquatics]

Good rant, right on

 

[reefwiser]

Problem with banding together is that has been done numerous time thru the years. The coral trade is controlled by families in Indo and they have their own agenda’s that we as hobbyist have no control over.

 

[tripdad]

Hello Ed,
I totally understand what your saying. As I said earlier we faced this in the auto aftermarket. The big manufacturers could care less, they had their own agenda's, concerns, battles with governmental bodies. But they fight by educating those in power so they can hopefully get a fair decision. That's all I'm saying is that we, as a group, should not expect those involved to care about our view on their own. Why should they? As you said they have their own interest. Only by showing the value to the economies involved, to the regions involved , will they start making decisions that benefit us. It all boils down to economic benefit, environmental benefit to the regions involved. Both domestic and foreign. If we as a group can educate others, evolve our practices, clean up our own act and find a way to benefit them then they may, I say may, listen. But staying silent and bellyaching to one another does nothing.

 

[JaimeAdams]

OK, so a Month later....

Still not able to get coral from Indonesia.

Does anyone have any more info issue?

 

[that Reef Guy]

It's reasons like this the hobby has a hard time fighting back against these bans. While I truly believe this is a short term thing. Everything from your Lfs to even reef 2 reef is threatened by this ban that no one knows the reasoning behind. If no one new is getting into the hobby numbers will just continue to shrink.

Maybe you don't care about collectors and wholesalers halfway around the world, but what about the LFS struggling without bans and supply issues. The friends you wouldn't have if not for the hobby. All the people who develop products pumps, lighting even aquariums themselves ect.

None of this will disappear overnight but if in 10 years or even 1 year we have 80-90% less coral a lot of stuff will. You're not going to spend as much r&d on products when your market has considerably shrunk.

"If no one new is getting into the hobby numbers will just continue to shrink."

Who says The Hobby is Shrinking?

How Do you know its not Growing instead?

Do you have evidence to back this up?

 

[PhreeByrd]

It's reasons like this the hobby has a hard time fighting back against these bans. While I truly believe this is a short term thing. Everything from your Lfs to even reef 2 reef is threatened by this ban that no one knows the reasoning behind. If no one new is getting into the hobby numbers will just continue to shrink.

As a hobbyist, what gives you any justification or right to fight against it? As far as I know, you don't even know the facts behind the ban. And as a foreigner living halfway around the world from the ban location, why would you think they should give a rat's *** what you think at all? Please provide some statistics showing that the hobby is "continuing to shrink', because I don't see that happening at all.

Maybe you don't care about collectors and wholesalers halfway around the world, but what about the LFS struggling without bans and supply issues. The friends you wouldn't have if not for the hobby. All the people who develop products pumps, lighting even aquariums themselves ect.

What makes you so entitled that you think you have the right to tell a foreign government what to do about its internal or ecological issues? You should be thankful that they are doing something, even if it's not yet clear that they are doing the best thing. Get off your high horse. The government of Indonesia doesn't owe you a thing, including an explanation for the ban. At least Indonesia is attempting to address an issue and to do the right thing. It is unfortunate that this inconveniences you. And no, I don't worry about my LFS at all. They have plenty of other sources. Same for manufacturers, because I don't see demand for good products going anywhere.

 

[andrewkw]

If upwards of 90% of the corals we get now were to suddenly go away you don't think the hobby would shrink? Stores will be empty sooner, closed soon. Companies are not going to put as much money into R&D for a much more limited market. Reef keeping is already a niche hobby. We are probably going to see a surge in Australian corals short term, but as beautiful as they are there is still less overall variety in Australia, no maricultured corals and there will always be the overall greatest cost compared to the closer countries who also have lower wages. Some people will pay more for frags, a lot won't. You can't have retail spaces where it takes weeks or months to grow out corals. Sure for long time hobbyists this is fine but it's going to take far more effort to bring new people into the hobby and keep them in it.

What issue is Indonesia attempting to address? People in other countries keeping corals? The issue is health certificates. If you're against this you're on the wrong forum.

 

[tripdad]

Just FYI, there are definitely mariculture facilities in Aussie Land. They are trying to be pro-active in their marketplace.

 

[that Reef Guy]

If upwards of 90% of the corals we get now were to suddenly go away you don't think the hobby would shrink? Stores will be empty sooner, closed soon. Companies are not going to put as much money into R&D for a much more limited market. Reef keeping is already a niche hobby. We are probably going to see a surge in Australian corals short term, but as beautiful as they are there is still less overall variety in Australia, no maricultured corals and there will always be the overall greatest cost compared to the closer countries who also have lower wages. Some people will pay more for frags, a lot won't. You can't have retail spaces where it takes weeks or months to grow out corals. Sure for long time hobbyists this is fine but it's going to take far more effort to bring new people into the hobby and keep them in it.

What issue is Indonesia attempting to address? People in other countries keeping corals? The issue is health certificates. If you're against this you're on the wrong forum.

On a Positive Note there would be more Home Grown Aquaculture.

That is what alot of Frag Swap Sellers do.

Frag Swaps are where it's at

That is Where I get all my Coral.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

Indonesian Cultured Coral Exports will Resume Next Week! | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

After a nearly two year hiatus, next week Indonesian coral farmers will once again be able to export their cultured corals. Following a long process that started with the re-election of president…

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