Indonesia coral export halted?
- Thread starter revhtree
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I hear yea, first we are a hobby and that makes us easy. We are unorganized and some do not care. I do not think most in this hobby are educated or informed on this until it is too late.
What is funny is some of us donate to saving the reef and sometimes that money is used against us.
I think some think it is easy to just raise saltwater fish. I also think some have been immune to the problems because in the past one area closed and other opened or reopened. Problem is now the reefs are in trouble and most areas have limits. These limits are not going to be raised anymore so we hit the tipping point. No new areas too open or are limit's going to be increased. We needed this to happen slowly so advances in breeding and aquaculture could catch up not have the rug pulled out.
You would think everyone in the industry would care from manufactures, distributors, forums, reef clubs, etc. It will hurt all when tangs are a minimum of 500 bucks.
Conservation needs to be done but managed in a sensible way.
The real problem I bet the Caribbean is next with the loss of acros and the lion-fish being so detrimental there. The bleaching in Australia is got to have them thinking too.. whats that leave? The Red Sea.
The real impact may not be felt for a while and hopefully this is short or worse does not end up not reopening.
Anyone know if this affects fish too?
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TerraFerma
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Yea that sucks big time. Tough to pay guys and gals to sit around while you wait to hear from the government. Hopefully Indo just wants to get everything above board and will turn the tap back on before too long.
Fiji is increasingly becoming an eco tourism destination (the outer islands, not so much Viti Levi). If your on the tourism board you are likely opposed to coral and rock collection. If Walt employed say 100 locals - its very easy to say well we can just let a few more resorts pop up and net net we'll gain jobs.
Think of all the tropical Pacific nations that don't or NEVER allowed export of corals and rock. The trade was on thin ice to begin with.
TerraFerma
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As an aside - we all loved Marshall Islands live rock. I went to Majuro a few years ago for a fishing trip. Lovely place but the land masses are skinny, flat, and the only thing keeping the islands livable are their barrier reefs. Imagine if you had 10-20 ft rollers crashing against your skinny flat island for 6 months of the year (they get hit from the Northern and Southern winters). No bueno. Luckily they are in the no hurricane zone (although that change!). But a few years ago a storm hit Majuro at an angle that no one could remember happening before. Large swells all of a sudden made it through the main, and large, reef pass. Lots of shoreline damage in what is normally a really calm part of the lagoon.
I don't blame them for shutting down live rock export. They need every bit they have just to tread water, literally.
I don't blame them for shutting down live rock export. They need every bit they have just to tread water, literally.
The science and scientists (local scientists, with documented proof) were behind WSI. They were paying back more than the took. They were doing it right, and were a model for everyone else to follow.
This is about the COP23 or whatever umber it is, and the hard-core environmentalists targeting what they view as the raping of the world's reefs for profit. And while I can see the logic behind wanting to stop that (because I'm sure it happens), there is a severe and extreme lack of consideration made for anyone doing it right with proof of that to back it up. The problem is, once you institute that type of thinking, now you've created a mountain of paperwork to prove that you've been doing it right for 20 years and you are given no pass to continue operation while you prove that.
That's what happened to WSI.
This is about the COP23 or whatever umber it is, and the hard-core environmentalists targeting what they view as the raping of the world's reefs for profit. And while I can see the logic behind wanting to stop that (because I'm sure it happens), there is a severe and extreme lack of consideration made for anyone doing it right with proof of that to back it up. The problem is, once you institute that type of thinking, now you've created a mountain of paperwork to prove that you've been doing it right for 20 years and you are given no pass to continue operation while you prove that.
That's what happened to WSI.
Pola0502ds
Zoa Addict
What i don’t understand about these bans, indo and fiji, is that there js no warning. Everyone who went to bed thinking they were going to work in the morning woke up to devastating news. The governments that impliment these bans have to see it coming and why can’t they get the word out before hand? Or instead of banning how about you set new rules and regulations to correct the problem before it gets to a point where its out of hand. Take some corrective action.
In my opinion this is only the begining, we haven’t even come close to seeing the worst of it yet. Even if the bans get turned around its going to be a uphill battle until everyone in the industry and hobby realizes wild caught animals are a thing of the past. With all the climate issues, populations increasing, delcining reefs, there is absolutely no way these situations will ever get better. The only solution is aquacultured coral. Unless everyone on the face of this earth wakes up, realizes all these issues, and changes.
In my opinion this is only the begining, we haven’t even come close to seeing the worst of it yet. Even if the bans get turned around its going to be a uphill battle until everyone in the industry and hobby realizes wild caught animals are a thing of the past. With all the climate issues, populations increasing, delcining reefs, there is absolutely no way these situations will ever get better. The only solution is aquacultured coral. Unless everyone on the face of this earth wakes up, realizes all these issues, and changes.
Wild reefs are pretty much doomed whether collection is outlawed worldwide or not. Unless the many seriously concerning issues that threaten coral reefs are minimized and/or eliminated, bans like this are seemly pointless. Am I missing the point or?
Any true “environmentalist” knows this ban and others like it aren’t going to save any reefs in the long run. Not even close. It’s a last ditch effort. The actual threats to reefs are too huge to be brought down.
Even I agree this halt is bonkers... and I happen to be one of those earth loving nut jobs (except not clueless and driven by some made up evil agenda). ;-)
Any true “environmentalist” knows this ban and others like it aren’t going to save any reefs in the long run. Not even close. It’s a last ditch effort. The actual threats to reefs are too huge to be brought down.
Even I agree this halt is bonkers... and I happen to be one of those earth loving nut jobs (except not clueless and driven by some made up evil agenda). ;-)
Lived in Hawaii for five years 20+ years ago.
That now classic pic of rows and rows of dead yellow tangs didn't help the reef industry much.
Very much aware of being a happy hypocrite as I add fish and corals to my tank here in Virginia.
FWIW
Rock is mostly mined dry rock with some Pukani and Fiji.
Fish are mostly wild caught. Purchased captive-bred varieties, even when more expensive, when available.
Corals are mostly older aquacultured varieties.
Fish stores don't stay open surviving on the responsible reef owners (on another older thread) who "bought and quarantined all of their fish at the same time and haven't added another fish, as they enjoy watching the fish live out their natural lifespans."
Fish stores survive on new customers and "repeat" business.
Think of the situation at your local SPCA and add a factor of how many?
Or don't, because the fish and corals conveniently have a tendency to die and self solve that problem when tank parameters go too far out of bounds.
Similar to a garden center with customers who sometimes have dead plants?
Or think of it as "replanting annuals"?
None of this is desirable, but probably more accurate than a lot of people want to admit.
That is where the tree huggers perspective comes from.
ArialReef
Active Member
The locals have been warned since 2015 but the thing about Indonesian people is, they won't listen and wouldn't care until it happens, then they blame the government. Typical........
fish farmer
2500 Club Member
I think you make some very good points. I've been pondering many of these recent bans and how they relate to another hobby that I work in and enjoy. Recreational fishing in the United States. I live in Vermont and will use that as reference. Around the late 1800's after much abuse of the watersheds, the state along with the federal Bureau of Fisheries(now the USFWS) started restocking programs, licensing of individuals, reduction of creel limits, taxes on fishing equipment. It is now even more regulated in the state currently as I'm sure it is in other states. There are game fish that are endangered and or completely replenished by stocking efforts, habitats are degraded to where some native fishes won't reproduce successfully or if so they are highly restricted with harvest limits. More recent issues in the recreational fishing industry come in the form of wild diseases or smaller invasives like bivalves, crustaceans or plants. We cannot import wild fish into this state without proper health certificates coming from a clean hatchery. For example, this past winter mosquito fish were found in Certified Disease Free Baitfish from an Arkansas bait farm. The importing wholesaler was fined, the Arkansas farm was taken off the list for importation. There are actually protocols in the baitfish industry regarding mosquito fish eradication, apparently the Best Managment Practices weren't followed.
Granted the aquarium pet trade isn't regulated as much up here with regard to invertebrates, but there are restrictions to certain fishes which could pose a threat to local water if inadvertantly released.
JaimeAdams
2500 Club Member
@Floyd R Turbo Do you have more information about WSI being out of business, such as a link or something? I know that I saw Mariculture Fiji Acros back on my importers availability list a couple weeks ago, just trying to check the info that I must have missed
I feel bad for all the Mericulture operations that were doing the right thing and depending on if this ban holds up and how long it holds for are more than likely going to be out of their investment and out of business. I am also feeling for the people in the industry that I know who's business is importing or brokering coral importation. I know one guy we talked to this morning said he is out of business until they re-open the exportation. My boss called me on my way to work telling me how bad off we are because of this. All the wholesalers and retailers including a lot of the forum sponsors who you guys see selling full colonies are probably out of business or at least very hurt by this.
We really need to keep these folks in our thoughts and prayers as this is sorted out and we see where the cards fall.
I feel bad for all the Mericulture operations that were doing the right thing and depending on if this ban holds up and how long it holds for are more than likely going to be out of their investment and out of business. I am also feeling for the people in the industry that I know who's business is importing or brokering coral importation. I know one guy we talked to this morning said he is out of business until they re-open the exportation. My boss called me on my way to work telling me how bad off we are because of this. All the wholesalers and retailers including a lot of the forum sponsors who you guys see selling full colonies are probably out of business or at least very hurt by this.
We really need to keep these folks in our thoughts and prayers as this is sorted out and we see where the cards fall.
Several decades ago all metal in ground gasoline tanks needed to be replaced due to deterioration and leaking gasoline into ground water across the USA.
This was set to go into effect *years* after the law was written, to give gas station owners time to plan for this expensive added cost.
When the time came it was again delayed by several years because "we're not ready yet".
When the time came again the delaying tactic was tried again.
If it's news you don't want to hear, you will never be 'ready'.
I hate to hear about people losing their jobs and business.
We aquaculture corals to seed reefs in Florida. Why not just go to aqua-cultured corals for the hobby? It may cost more for corals and you may not get everything you would like but I think it would make people more conscious about caring for the live stock. Same with fish. Just go to aqua cultured. It’s not easy but not impossible. It will cost more but not impossible.
Is it just cost that makes a lot of people want harvested livestock? Won’t people still be able to work at cultured facilities? It would be a transition for sure. Just thinking out loud.
We aquaculture corals to seed reefs in Florida. Why not just go to aqua-cultured corals for the hobby? It may cost more for corals and you may not get everything you would like but I think it would make people more conscious about caring for the live stock. Same with fish. Just go to aqua cultured. It’s not easy but not impossible. It will cost more but not impossible.
Is it just cost that makes a lot of people want harvested livestock? Won’t people still be able to work at cultured facilities? It would be a transition for sure. Just thinking out loud.
@JaimeAdams just what I know from the inside. I have personal contact with someone there through an unrelated relationship (i.e. I don't buy anything from WSI). I wouldn't say that they are 100% "out of business" but when you do the financial math of no ability to generate revenue but you still have expenses and payroll, that can only continue for so long. Now, due to the most recent slap in the face pulled by the Fijian government, the process to get back to revenue-generating ability is going to take 3-4 months.
So do the math...
As for Indonesia, what's been said in this thread is probably accurate - they probably knew it was coming. The problem is, government tends to bow to the people running COP because there's influence and power there, so while the people likely knew it was coming, they have no way to predict the form and timing of it, and they are given no remedy months ahead of time to know what needs to be done. Like what happened in Fiji. Literally, one day they just pulled the plug and said "we don't know what we are going to require of you to comply, but what we know is that no one can possibly comply to regulations that have yet to be decided upon, so you must comply to the lack of compliance we are complying you to comply to"
Then everyone scratches their head, which is of course non-compliant. I'm pretty sure the same tactic is being used everywhere now that it's been proven to effectively decimate upstanding businesses in Fiji. Big win for the environment, yay! Never mind that WSI was running sustainability programs and rebuilding reefs, and that Fiji is worse off without them in operation than they are with them in operation. We must have regulations at all costs, there is no compromise.
That's what's going on here.
So do the math...
As for Indonesia, what's been said in this thread is probably accurate - they probably knew it was coming. The problem is, government tends to bow to the people running COP because there's influence and power there, so while the people likely knew it was coming, they have no way to predict the form and timing of it, and they are given no remedy months ahead of time to know what needs to be done. Like what happened in Fiji. Literally, one day they just pulled the plug and said "we don't know what we are going to require of you to comply, but what we know is that no one can possibly comply to regulations that have yet to be decided upon, so you must comply to the lack of compliance we are complying you to comply to"
Then everyone scratches their head, which is of course non-compliant. I'm pretty sure the same tactic is being used everywhere now that it's been proven to effectively decimate upstanding businesses in Fiji. Big win for the environment, yay! Never mind that WSI was running sustainability programs and rebuilding reefs, and that Fiji is worse off without them in operation than they are with them in operation. We must have regulations at all costs, there is no compromise.
That's what's going on here.
anit77
Active Member
I'm not trying to be sarcastic here.
But how big a tank and how many fish would a company need to get Tangs to spawn? Is this something that can even be done in large public aquariums, like the Tennessee or Georgia Aquariums?
If it takes something that sized it's not going to be economically feasible for a company to do.
fish farmer
2500 Club Member
It does come down to money, but I'm amazed at what is going on in Commercial Aquaculture these days. There seem to be more and more land bases RAS(recirculating aquacaulture systems) growing things like salmon which were generally net penned or put, grow, and take in the open ocean. The university I went to is currently working at getting yellowfin tuna to spawn in captivity, https://www.greenfins.com/.
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