Instant Tank Cycle

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bio-spira-works-great.668674/
To support Howaboutme's quick bioload carry, that'll do. Thats probably the most day 1 stuff I can recall being legit skip cycled from bottle bac into a totally dry system.


How did disease track out in year 1/ --> this is where my patterns come from / web post patterns from those breaking traditional cycling rules.

 

[MnFish1]

I never saw once in your thread example above that visual cues can be used to verify cycle completion. I havent seen any human write that, ever, in 20 years online tracking tank cycles.

Last quote here for a while (on vacation - but sick in bed) - Brandon - MULTIPLE people over the years have used 'visual cues' to see whats going on in their tanks. Thats common sense. How do you think people who have started tanks - and then had all of their fish 'die' figured that out. Seems like they didn't use an ammonia meter - they used their eyes. Likewise - as you're saying - its common sense that at least on a 'gross' level as compared to a microscopic level that if all the coral in your tank is great, the fish are swimming, eating, etc - that those visual cues are also important. People do testing - so they can PREVENT problems. like ICP tests (which I personally do not believe in), and testing during cycling.

 

[MnFish1]

MN at least Lasse wrote an article for something about cycling

until you do I gotta leave the ignore button in place, you and I no longer click on writing style and its better if we dont interact much. I still check occasionally though to see if you left comfort zone a while/surprise me. Enumerating the number of cycle posts I'm estimating has no value, the value is what is logged that you can message any person involved and get a fast feedback on outcomes. Every post from me gets a clear start date, most get a recommend on disease preps, they're all told to ignore nitrite and never own the kit, and thousands of folks have saved money and learned to reef intently right from the start. that's whats on file. more than 300/

Writing an article means nothing (to me). @Lasse's benefit (to me) is his daily posts and the logic behind what he is saying. Ignore away. If you actually were reading what I am writing, you'd see that I agree with most of the stuff you're saying in the end, just not the logic behind it.

 

[brandon429]

I will undo my restricting clicks if you'll link one single example from anywhere online that mentions visual cue-based cycle confirmation that does not use testing for any param.

( I already know you + seasoned reefers know the trick, my beef is none of the cycle trainers write it, communicate it or relay it, they want purchases instead )

its not as well known as you're stating.

 

[MnFish1]

I will undo my restricting clicks if you'll link one single example from anywhere online that mentions cue-based cycle confirmation that does not use testing for any param.

and if you dont link one/double mad lol at the challenge to such a core method of updated cycling science without any merit.

I can answer this fairly easily. There are probably 10+ products out there - that instruct 1) fill up a tank with saltwater. 2. Put in a filter. 3. Put in a bottle of xxx bacteria. 4. Add fish on day 1. etc etc. Some of those products say 'check test A, B, C'. Most have no recommendations to do so. Again - I've said multiple times I have never owned an ammonia nitrite test kit (I do test nitrate in my tank - just not for. 'cycling') -Also made a number of comments asking why on earth someone would set up a tank and let it sit empty for weeks or months waiting for a cycle). I helped Dr Reef design the ammonia study/bottled bacteria study - where to me it was shown that ammonia was easily and quickly controlled using only bottled bacteria within days.

My opinion - there are lots of people in this hobby who like to 'test' and 'tinker' when in reality most of the time (my opinion - for my tank) its not needed or helpful. But - if they want to do so - great - its their tank. There are also a lot of good marketing companies out there suggesting that if you don't have 'their gizmo' that your tank will fail.

I could give you 1000+ posts that say 'controller xxxxxxxx' is essential, and another 1000 that say 'I dont have a controller'. If I just picked the second group, could I make the conclusion (because of those 1000 posts) - that 'a controller is not necessary'? IMHO, no.

 

[brandon429]

Lasse's method can't fail either, the cool part about our debate is I don't think his method is bad its awesome.

but we need a more mobile/specific and dynamic way to meet the unleashed demand from new tank cyclers who honestly can't get it wrong no matter how they go about arrangements. Disease is wiping out so many marine fish after purchase I'm ok if supplies dwindle to the point they all cost eight hundred dollars, perhaps keepers and cycle training writers will adapt accordingly-respond to patterns vs ignore them for once.

anyone who claims insight into fish disease control should have some linkable laps they swam to help others in the fish disease forum linked above. Without that core practice meeting other's arrangements vs their very own controlled arrangements, and leaving Jay to run every single live assessment, these massive fish disease loss and wasting trends are set to grow. price 'em to the sky, a deserved consequence for large tank owners.

 

[MnFish1]

Lasse's method can't fail either, the cool part about our debate is I don't think his method is bad its awesome.

but we need a more mobile/specific and dynamic way to meet the unleashed demand from new tank cyclers who honestly can't get it wrong no matter how they go about arrangements. Disease is wiping out so many marine fish after purchase I'm ok if supplies dwindle to the point they all cost eight hundred dollars, perhaps keepers and cycle training writers will adapt accordingly-respond to patterns vs ignore them for once.

The question to me would then be 'why' is that happening? I just am not sure it has to do with cycling?

 

[brandon429]

If I didnt misread his approach its to guarantee benthic growths are in place before adding fish. He's advocating careful, timed addition of fish which is certainly not a haphazard approach like verifying ammonia control then adding six ordered fish, which the system can indeed carry ammonia-wise. Waiting to the degree of wait time he wants will insulate a system better against dinos in my opinion vs my dry rock insta tanks


If everyone cycled a tank like Lasse shows, there would be a lot less wasting and loss and dinos invasions.


but they wont, we have to streamline the fast ways of bioload carry in order to justify selling them on some sort of disease prep to make up for skipping the common three param cycling wait, which they can skip.



anyone that uses a quick cycle method and then inputs quarantined fish isn't really harming anything, our systems can legit carry the bioload.

Every single core param in cycling will be met by Lasse's approach by the time fish are added, its a guaranteed system biologically, that's apparent.

if there was a big pie that slices up trending cycling options for the current hobby, he and Paul earn a permanent slice. those who advocate or respond to perceived cycles stalls also deserve a slice, and specific start date methods deserve a slice. convention participants deserve a slice, sellers deserve a slice, we all still press for more pieces to claim as the fun part/

I like how in the sales race, new cycling science does not want anyone's cash not one cent.

 

[brandon429]

Kudos to RtR for allowing the market to play itself as it will

push and pull was frowned upon by other forums- prevention of discussion stifles information flow, restricts participation.

when people make crazy claims about procedure, the market will handle that, no heavy-handing needed and rtr practices the best self management collectively ever seen in forum conduct and mod balance.

 

[Lasse]

findings:

solely your tank as an example, and quite a nice tank.



zero predicted start dates for new cyclers posting for help, didn't see any of those. you skirted being accountable for the start date on any tank lightly mentioned in discussions.



zero discussion on the amazing pattern of fish loss within 8 mos when cyclers choose no disease approach protocol.


So we must disagree across the board, but at least I read up to page 4 to get the current patterns.

your reef is very nice agreed

by page 4 on our cycling threads, how many cycles of other people's tanks have we logged? 10-30? 100% get a specific start date right when they post?

by omitting fish disease information in your post, and by never helping anyone with practical issues in the fish disease forum (instead leaving all works to Jay to manage as he does his zoo) you are able to write just about anything you want to write and with your tank as the flagship, it looks like it will work for everyone.


but lets click here and watch it ten days and find folks using your method to assist or begin with and avoid disease:
https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-and-diagnosis.771/
the difference is author-centric writing vs aquarist-centric writing where other people's tanks comprise 100% of all logged examples. you cant find my reef being mentioned or pictured at all, especially at the start.

You are wrong - I´m not Author - centric - I´m an user-centric person - it means that I do not pass further other persons examples in order to either make a theory or argue for my thoughts. I´m mostly only debatting things there I have an own experiences. And I gladly let other persons with personal experiences answer people and guide them - especially in such experimental field like fish diseases. However - I have not been silent about diseases and the dammed prophylactic treatment methods. There is another forum there some people just not like me for my opinion about prophylactic treatment. But treatment of real diseases - there is people more knowable than me that should fix that. However - this thread - that was meant as an article but some did not think it was enough good to be an article - show that I have experiences in some disease (or more - how some antibiotics works)

And about diseases - here is an excellent article and I am not quiet in that discussion.

But I will take two quotes from MnFish1 that cover the whole thing very well

Thanks @Lasse as usual you said it perfectly. I think a lot of the 'mental wrangling' most people do with cycling is wasted time - thus I agree with many of @brandon429 'end results'. I feel similar to @Paul B. The end results are 'true' - the theory behind them (to me) may not be.

1. I believe he was saying - that without 'control' of nitrite, you cannot say cycling (by the SCIENTIFIC definition of nitrification) is 'complete'. I think he has said that 5-6 times?

I´m not either advocate for bottled bacteria - just mention that it is one way. I also mention use of soil, old sand and/or rocks from working aquarium and other free of charge products in order to complete the nitrification process.

I will still argue with you in every thread where you automatically scream - wrong reading of NH3/NH4, nitrite or nitrate. It could be but every question must be individually treated because it could also show a trend of bad water quality. 0.25 in ammonia after 4 weeks is probably wrong. 0.5 in nitrite is probably near the truth but 0.005 is of no concern for fish health or stress even if it is right. As long as you not know the conversion factor and the nitrite concentration - all low NO3 readings ( below 10) in a established aquarium can be wrong. In a newly started aquarium even high nitrate concentrations are normally wrong.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/what-lighting-for-salifert-test.851118/#post-9256503
In a dry start reef, we just verified ammonia safety from one tank picture and no other inputs. benthic clues existed, apparent dilution is clear, massive surface area, 2 day-implanting bottle bac, previously-tested seneye patterns and 30 days~ bioload carry plus feeding with multiple fish and laser clean water as of today is how we assessed the tank

There are no reef tanks meeting these above conditions that aren't cycled and handling ammonia just fine, right out of the bottle.


the next step is to cease testing for ammonia and nitrite and begin choosing a disease protocol.

This post is to continue patterns being edited into this thread long before our 3 page diversion.

he does not need to wrestle into the right light to know his ammonia, we can assess it without a kit. for pages.

lets see if his fish show signs of ammonia poisoning in future updates, or if they show signs of crypto or velvet.

no matter how much this post may cause additional diversions, the point of this thread is to test out visual cue cycling and chart it against the lifelong fish updates for the tank, and we can do that, subscribe to him and watch his updates all the predictions are plain and in place.

 

[brandon429]

Epibenthic verification of cycle readiness example

it’s not to rehash prior beef here it’s to continue the trending of logging examples of no test, visual cycle closures and completions.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/cycling-tank-progress.854982/


there is no forum on the internet beyond reef2reef that uses this science. 100% of forums will require despite those obvious growth markers to dose the tank to 2 ppm ammonia and if it only goes down to .25, its not cycled. any iota of nitrite indicated on api regardless of water conditioners added will be deemed uncycled and lethal slowly to fish added, but it’s not true. the reef is 100% cycled and ready. More examples coming, we average one new per week.

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/did-i-mess-up-new-tanks-cycle.919010/
what some call beating a dead horse I call establishing a work thread. Any link back edited into this old back n forth post is a skip cycle I said was ready off a single tank picture + known history of their live rock if they provided any. And now we can send messages to any tank owners and see if their fish lived or died in cycle.

visual cues included in the above link proofing the cycle, without testing, includes matted growth on sand and live rock inclusions seen in the pics along with the stated rock history which was coming from a pet store holding vat, full of live rocks :)


that’s easy to proof as a skip cycle tank off pics.


all the reef tank conventions ran since the start of this thread: live rock skip cycle setups carrying $$$ and always turning out fine, no vendors had a cycle stall (only forum peers get cycle stalls, that’s a buyers notion)

 

[Rmckoy]

The ability to read zero isnt relevant. All tests have a limit of detection.

The only way to demonstrate that a tank has the capacity to process ammonia into nitrate is to measure that ability. The only way to do that with techniques available in the hobby is to add some ammonia and measure its disappearance.

There was a experiment done not too long ago to measure if 1lb of live rock could process I believe 2ppm ammonia within 24 hours .
followed by other experiments using rocks lightly rinsed in tank water vs tap water and if they still had the capacity to process the same amount of ammonia within 24 hours .
I can’t remember exactly who performed the experiment but believe me . It was ….. entertaining . To say the least .

 

[brandon429]

MN did it and he did a great job i thought


This thread here is about the challenge: is it possible to ID some tanks as fully cycled and ready off tanks pics alone. We're knee deep in that :)


*I don’t think every cycle can be discerned off pics alone


only these obvious posts make that part easy, heck they’re even describing where the rocks came from / vats marked ‘live rock’ at a pet store / so it’s been easy going so far. It would be possible to trick us with a set of rocks bone white, cured in dark water sixty days with bottle bac + feed…in pics those will look uncycled and we wouldn’t know

but there’s a subset of some reef cycle help posts where the thread help writer posts a pic along with their cycle doubt, and the pic immediately ends the cycle doubt. We are linking those easy ID skip cycles here.


admit it’s minor funny that one of the guys visual cues in his opening pic is a toadstool coral attached to the rock lol. Heck those rascals dont spring up overnite!

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-tank-running-for-3-days-now-here-are-test-results.942603/
In a mere three years we've been able to make some change in tide/correct?

more and more folks accept skip cycling nowadays, heck there's too many instances of it not to.

*we aren't at 100% acceptance of updated cycling science that gives us more stuff to work on. we can keep back-editing proofs in here until everyone agrees

this poster was led to buy fritz and all kinds of supports to cycle a live rock skip cycle reef:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/did-my-new-tank-just-turbo-cycle.944351/

 

[MnFish1]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-tank-running-for-3-days-now-here-are-test-results.942603/
In a mere three years we've been able to make some change in tide/correct?

more and more folks accept skip cycling nowadays, heck there's too many instances of it not to.

*we aren't at 100% acceptance of updated cycling science that gives us more stuff to work on. we can keep back-editing proofs in here until everyone agrees

I have believed in 'skip cycles' based on common sense for 30 years. The aquarium - and the water IMHO holds very little of the nitrifies that we need (whether auto or heterotrophic:)

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-to-saltwate-aquarium-in-cycle-for-1-week.955620/


hey team

visual cycling verification in a dry start reef.

 

[MnFish1]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-to-saltwate-aquarium-in-cycle-for-1-week.955620/


hey team

visual cycling verification in a dry start reef.

Brandon - I would suggest you read the instructions for any number of products. LOL - This has happened for decades. Where have you been?

 

[brandon429]

we are only mid-process verification is why that's fun to watch unfold

the pic was the red flag we needed to peel the onion and prove readiness. soon some fish will be in there acting just fine-that will continue proofing. he first must be convinced that no reef tank cycle ever stalls, ever, not any of them.

once I can get him to agree there, his reservations will be gone and we'll be reading up in the disease forum smartly before packing in LFS life into the ready to reef tank.
this tank's cycle is called from tank pictures I don't even want to know their ammonia/they'll report a misread to me and get doubt instead.

now if they had a seneye I'd be jumping for joy to get the readings.