Internal Parasite? Poop? Not sure

[kylevan]

Hello, on day 3 of QT for my clowns, just dosed second dose of copper power and fed for the first time today, wondering what this is coming out of the guys, curious if you’d say this is “white and stringy” or normal poop. Besides swimming way under the pvc they seem normal. Not eating like pigs, but they picked at a few pieces.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hello, on day 3 of QT for my clowns, just dosed second dose of copper power and fed for the first time today, wondering what this is coming out of the guys, curious if you’d say this is “white and stringy” or normal poop. Besides swimming way under the pvc they seem normal. Not eating like pigs, but they picked at a few pieces.

There are no pics or video to go by but if you are feeding mysis shrimp, brine shrimp or both, you get this from excess mucus in the stomach lining mimicking internal issues.
Also you mentioned second dose of coppersafe? If you are ramping up the level, get to the level right away as it stall effectivity of copper working on potential disease

 

[kylevan]

There are no pics or video to go by but if you are feeding mysis shrimp, brine shrimp or both, you get this from excess mucus in the stomach lining mimicking internal issues.
Also you mentioned second dose of coppersafe? If you are ramping up the level, get to the level right away as it stall effectivity of copper working on potential disease

Sorry, not sure why it didn’t upload, said it uploaded. And yes second dose of copper power today, first yesterday, final one tomorrow. I’ll post the link for the video below. Not feeding mysis, only fed TDO-C2 Chroma Boost Pelets. If you actually go to YouTube to watch the video the quality is better than watching through the video below fyi.

 

[MnFish1]

Sorry, not sure why it didn’t upload, said it uploaded. And yes second dose of copper power today, first yesterday, final one tomorrow. I’ll post the link for the video below. Not feeding mysis, only fed TDO-C2 Chroma Boost Pelets. If you actually go to YouTube to watch the video the quality is better than watching through the video below fyi.

here are many causes for white poop that aren't parasites, etc - I would watch it for now.
Second - I'm assuming the fish just arrived within the last couple days? If so - many shippers do not feed their fish before shipping for a bit in order to try to limit ammonia production. Third I'm concerned that you're not dosing copper safe correctly - which should be done by levels - as compared to 3 total doses (I don't understand what 'final dose tomorrow means'. Copper is usually run for 30 days.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Sorry, not sure why it didn’t upload, said it uploaded. And yes second dose of copper power today, first yesterday, final one tomorrow. I’ll post the link for the video below. Not feeding mysis, only fed TDO-C2 Chroma Boost Pelets. If you actually go to YouTube to watch the video the quality is better than watching through the video below fyi.

Not seeing white feces but am sure its food related and may be that of what LFS was feeding. Additionally, are you adding Coppersafe daily?
Add to diet, LRS fish frenzy, plankton and flakes such as Formula one

 

[kylevan]

here are many causes for white poop that aren't parasites, etc - I would watch it for now.
Second - I'm assuming the fish just arrived within the last couple days? If so - many shippers do not feed their fish before shipping for a bit in order to try to limit ammonia production. Third I'm concerned that you're not dosing copper safe correctly - which should be done by levels - as compared to 3 total doses (I don't understand what 'final dose tomorrow means'. Copper is usually run for 30 days.

So I’m technically doing 3 doses until I’m at 1.5 ppm, I’ve done two already and currently at 1.1.

 

[winxp_man]

So I’m technically doing 3 doses until I’m at 1.5 ppm, I’ve done two already and currently at 1.1.

Here is the simple method.

Dose until you get to 1.80-2.0ppm. Then after 24 hours does to get above 2.25ppm. Hanna testers are the key. The idea to ramp up copper was based from what I have read and done research on, the stronger copper products. With Copper Power most write ups are a simple two step that I listed above.

I do stand corrected if I’m wrong. But I have 15 fish in QT because of velvet outbreak. They are all fine going on week three roughly of copper QT. Also don’t forget an aerator for extra O2 in case your filter systems can’t produce enough.

No filter pads such as PO4, NO3, NO2 remover type filters or ammonia removal pads. Just bio filters.

 

[vetteguy53081]

So I’m technically doing 3 doses until I’m at 1.5 ppm, I’ve done two already and currently at 1.1.

get right to 2.25. Coppersafe takes effect at 2.0 and you are wasting time addressing any issues

 

[kylevan]

Here is the simple method.

Dose until you get to 1.80-2.0ppm. Then after 24 hours does to get above 2.25ppm. Hanna testers are the key. The idea to ramp up copper was based from what I have read and done research on, the stronger copper products. With Copper Power most write ups are a simple two step that I listed above.

I do stand corrected if I’m wrong. But I have 15 fish in QT because of velvet outbreak. They are all fine going on week three roughly of copper QT. Also don’t forget an aerator for extra O2 in case your filter systems can’t produce enough.

No filter pads such as PO4, NO3, NO2 remover type filters or ammonia removal pads. Just bio filters.

So here’s where I’m at;
4/20 Gave 1/3 of copper power 3.0 mL, tested at .67 ppm.
4/21 Gave 2/3 dose of Copper power 2.5 mL just tested 1.2ppm
4/22 (today) will give 3/3 and final copper power dose. I’m estimating around 1.5 mL to reach 1.5 ppm which will be held for 14-30 days depending on symptoms. Planning to do water change (25%) tomorrow and re-dose copper power to 1.5 ppm. Dose that make more sense? Thanks for the feedback. Also using the HI702 for testing.

 

[kylevan]

get right to 2.25. Coppersafe takes effect at 2.0 and you are wasting time addressing any issues

Sorry I forgot to add that this is just prophylactic treatment, the fish are new and haven’t been added to my DT yet I purchased them from my LFS Saturday, no obvious signs of disease. That’s why I want to keep copper power on the low recommended side of 1.5ppm to cause the least amount of stress

 

[winxp_man]

Sorry I forgot to add that this is just prophylactic treatment, the fish are new and haven’t been added to my DT yet I purchased them from my LFS Saturday, no obvious signs of disease. That’s why I want to keep copper power on the low recommended side of 1.5ppm to cause the least amount of stress

The fish that had brought it the velvet to my system lasted a week and a half without me seeing anything. These diseases are there even if you don’t see anything. The fact is you need to get ahead of it with full power effective dose of Copper Power. Otherwise you’re just wasting time, and possibly a bad ending. Worst case is the fish really didn’t have anything, and this ends up being a nothing. But the fact that we just dont know of what is going on without dissecting under a microscope, it’s why we do CP at full power within 24 hours after the initial dose.

One last thing you only observe a day or two to make sure the fish are eating good and looking healthy.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So here’s where I’m at;
4/20 Gave 1/3 of copper power 3.0 mL, tested at .67 ppm.
4/21 Gave 2/3 dose of Copper power 2.5 mL just tested 1.2ppm
4/22 (today) will give 3/3 and final copper power dose. I’m estimating around 1.5 mL to reach 1.5 ppm which will be held for 14-30 days depending on symptoms. Planning to do water change (25%) tomorrow and re-dose copper power to 1.5 ppm. Dose that make more sense? Thanks for the feedback. Also using the HI702 for testing.

You do need to get your copper level above 2.0, 2.25 is the target for quarantine, 2.5 for severe disease. Copper Power is generally safe, but that also means that it won't have any benefit until you reach a full dosage.

Mucus feces are pretty common in clownfish. Some causes are benign, some are serious, and some are untreatable. Here is a list that I wrote up:

Excess mucus in fish feces:

This will present as white or light colored, stringy fecal material that often hangs from the fish’s anus for a longer than normal period. There are a number of different causes for this, some benign, others very serious. Without access to a microscope, there is little that can be done to diagnose this issue effectively.

Idiopathic mucus feces: this fancy term is just to describe white mucoid bulky feces of no serious consequence, but of an unknown cause. Some suspicion is that this can be caused by changes in diet or diets high in fats.

Starvation: Fish that have no food moving through their bowels may excrete white mucoid feces with little bulk to them. The primary diagnostic for this issue is evident in that the fish won’t been seen to be eating. Resolving the anorexia is of course the prime focus to resolve this issue.

Bacterial infection: internal bacterial infections can cause stringy feces as well. While some of these may resolve on their own, medicated foods containing a broad spectrum, gram negative oral antibiotic may be required.

Metazoan infections: multicellular worms are often blamed for mucoid feces, but in reality, they are almost never the root cause for this, and really, can only be diagnosed through looking for their ova in fecal samples. Fish can harbor tapeworms and nematodes without producing mucoid feces.

Protozoan infection: Hexamita and related diplomonad flagellate protozoans very frequently cause white stringy feces, especially in newly acquired clownfish. Metronidazole is the most frequent treatment for this issue. It can be dosed orally at 25 mg per kg of fish body weight, or 5 g in a kg of food. However, it is a very bitter medication, and some fish will refuse to feed on food containing it. It can be dosed in the water at 25 mg/l, but this is more effective in treating marine fishes, as freshwater fish do not “drink” aquarium water.

Coccidia: These microscopic, spore-forming, single-celled parasites are common diseases in dogs and cats. In fish, they cause epithelial necrosis of the gut, enteritis and the copious production of mucus (Noga 2010). These cannot be diagnosed without microscopic examination, and there is no well researched cure for this in fishes, although Toltrazuril has been tested.

Constipation: This malady is often given as a cause for stringy feces, but it is not as common as one would think. When it is seen, the feces are usually dark, not light in color. Often touted as a “cure for constipation”, many aquarists add Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) to the aquarium’s water – do not do this in marine aquariums, its use is primarily as a tonic/dip for freshwater fish. Seawater formulas already contain between 7 and 19 grams of magnesium sulfate per gallon (depending on the recipe). NSW magnesium level is around 1200 ppm and sulfur is around 840 ppm. Some benefit might be seen using it as a dip in additional concentrations, but adding a small amount to a marine aquarium itself has no benefit. Epsom salts do have some possible benefit when mixed into the food as a 3% by weight adjunct. Another commonly heard remedy for constipation is; “feed fresh peas”. This is an effective cure for fancy goldfish and Malawi cichlids that develop constipation and bloating. Again, overextrapolation has marine aquarists trying to feed peas to carnivorous fish, etc. The best method to enhance gut motility in fish is to feed frozen adult brine shrimp – not as a permanent diet, just long enough to get the constipation resolved.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Sorry I forgot to add that this is just prophylactic treatment, the fish are new and haven’t been added to my DT yet I purchased them from my LFS Saturday, no obvious signs of disease. That’s why I want to keep copper power on the low recommended side of 1.5ppm to cause the least amount of stress

Often signs not obvious until it’s too late. Assume all new acquisitions have something and treat to be safe before it becomes a larger issue and you lose valuable time

 

[vetteguy53081]

So here’s where I’m at;
4/20 Gave 1/3 of copper power 3.0 mL, tested at .67 ppm.
4/21 Gave 2/3 dose of Copper power 2.5 mL just tested 1.2ppm
4/22 (today) will give 3/3 and final copper power dose. I’m estimating around 1.5 mL to reach 1.5 ppm which will be held for 14-30 days depending on symptoms. Planning to do water change (25%) tomorrow and re-dose copper power to 1.5 ppm. Dose that make more sense? Thanks for the feedback. Also using the HI702 for testing.

This level is too low. Coppersafe starts to take effect at 2.0 or above
Again, recommended is 2.25ppm

 

[kylevan]

This level is too low. Coppersafe starts to take effect at 2.0 or above
Again, recommended is 2.25ppm

Gotcha, I had read the recommended range is 1.5-2.0 ppm and can go up to 2.25 if you’re fighting a strong case. Just curious where you’re getting the 2.25 from? After yesterdays dose the fish are visibly more uncomfortable, swimming patterns changed, they’re darting a bit, not as relaxed as they were before I put the secnd dose of copper in. I’m kind of nervous truthfully to add more because I’m not sure what’s caused the change in behavior and don’t want to overdo the copper.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Gotcha, I had read the recommended range is 1.5-2.0 ppm and can go up to 2.25 if you’re fighting a strong case. Just curious where you’re getting the 2.25 from? After yesterdays dose the fish are visibly more uncomfortable, swimming patterns changed, they’re darting a bit, not as relaxed as they were before I put the secnd dose of copper in. I’m kind of nervous truthfully to add more because I’m not sure what’s caused the change in behavior and don’t want to overdo the copper.

Can go up to 2.5 if severe. Be careful what you read. Coppersafe is a chelated form and quite safe to use

 

[kylevan]

Can go up to 2.5 if severe. Be careful what you read. Coppersafe is a chelated form and quite safe to use

When you say coppersafe are you refering to copper power?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

When you say coppersafe are you refering to copper power?

Coppersafe and copper power are essentially identical. I’ve tested them both on a full size spectrophotometer and the “as dosed” level is 2.25 ppm.
If your fish are acting off at low dose copper, you need to focus on what else it might be, as it isn the amine-chelated copper.

 

[MnFish1]

Gotcha, I had read the recommended range is 1.5-2.0 ppm and can go up to 2.25 if you’re fighting a strong case. Just curious where you’re getting the 2.25 from? After yesterdays dose the fish are visibly more uncomfortable, swimming patterns changed, they’re darting a bit, not as relaxed as they were before I put the secnd dose of copper in. I’m kind of nervous truthfully to add more because I’m not sure what’s caused the change in behavior and don’t want to overdo the copper.

The recommended range for Coppersafe is 2 ppm on their bottle. it has been seen multiple times that a higher level is not really toxic and does a better job at removing ich. The dosing time is (as others have said) is 30 days - at that >2 ppm <2.5 ppm. This is whether you're treating a known outbreak or quarantining fish with no visible signs. using lower dose copper (as it seems you're trying to do) may induce some resistance - and may be worse than using nothing at all - though - I'm not sure there has been any proof (though its been stated) - that there is resistant ich out there because of using low-dose copper (perhaps @Jay Hemdal would know

 

[kylevan]

The recommended range for Coppersafe is 2 ppm on their bottle. it has been seen multiple times that a higher level is not really toxic and does a better job at removing ich. The dosing time is (as others have said) is 30 days - at that >2 ppm <2.5 ppm. This is whether you're treating a known outbreak or quarantining fish with no visible signs. using lower dose copper (as it seems you're trying to do) may induce some resistance - and may be worse than using nothing at all - though - I'm not sure there has been any proof (though its been stated) - that there is resistant ich out there because of using low-dose copper (perhaps @Jay Hemdal would know

So based on everyone saying the same thing, I was definitely misinformed. I did some more research and this is what I found from the manufacturer