Introducing biodiversity without live rock, sand

[Magnapinna]

Those guys are badly informed, then. There's some debate about some of the more common nano fish being suitable or not, but there are a good few tiny fish that are definitely fine. There are also a couple of blenny species that pick a hole and stay in it- barnacle blennies, the sailfin blennies KP Aquatics has. You could practically keep them in a breeder box permanently if you could ensure that they had something in it that they wanted to sit in.

A firefish would be a good option. They can be a bit timid, but should hover visibly when not spooked, and they have pretty colors and a charming, twitchy dorsal fin. They're best added first due to that timid nature. They do, though, need a very tightly fitted lid. Everything mobile (including shrimp!) needs a lid, but firefish will very quickly show you why a lid is important if kept in a lidless tank.

Add that to the list then... firefish I was told were 50gal+ (though a cursory Google search still says 20+?). They were one of my first considerations, really cool fish. Trying to figure out what to do about a lid without my HOB filter getting in the way and without blocking the light.

I honestly think this LFS is just trying to pull one over on me. They conveniently didn't tell me any of this until after I purchased the rock and sand (which, like most of their inventory, is explicitly nonrefundable), before which I established multiple times it was only 10gal. They also said no more than 3 corals of any kind, ever. After pocketing my money they suddenly want me to upgrade to 30gal or more. I call BS

 

[Tired]

I would ignore anything that LFS told you, yeah. They seem to have told you almost entirely nonsense. I am wordlessly pointing at my successful pico that, before I took it down, had over a dozen corals and two (very small) fish.

Mm, maybe get a second opinion on the firefish. Not a Google opinion- a lot of tank size requirements listed on a lot of sites are fairly arbitrary. To my knowledge, they aren't active enough to need much space- they mostly just hover. The main thing they need space for is getting away from potential aggressors. It's entirely possible they're more active than I'm picturing, though- haven't kept 'em in years.

What kind of tank is it? If it's a basic, rimmed, rectangular glass tank, you can likely buy a glass lid for it that has a plastic section you can cut portions out of to allow for a HOB filter, though having absolutely no gaps is tricky. You'll see people trying to claim that glass lids block light, and they technically do, but a clean one will block a negligible amount. Or there's always mesh, if you can find something small enough to keep small fish in and can get a lid made.

 

[billyocean]

Where are you in Atlanta? There's several good stores. Join AtlantaReefClub.org ..we have a ton of members and there are ton of people that can help you out. You're more than welcome to come grab some rock or whatever from me if you want...just shoot me a pm

 

[Magnapinna]

I would ignore anything that LFS told you, yeah. They seem to have told you almost entirely nonsense. I am wordlessly pointing at my successful pico that, before I took it down, had over a dozen corals and two (very small) fish.

Mm, maybe get a second opinion on the firefish. Not a Google opinion- a lot of tank size requirements listed on a lot of sites are fairly arbitrary. To my knowledge, they aren't active enough to need much space- they mostly just hover. The main thing they need space for is getting away from potential aggressors. It's entirely possible they're more active than I'm picturing, though- haven't kept 'em in years.

What kind of tank is it? If it's a basic, rimmed, rectangular glass tank, you can likely buy a glass lid for it that has a plastic section you can cut portions out of to allow for a HOB filter, though having absolutely no gaps is tricky. You'll see people trying to claim that glass lids block light, and they technically do, but a clean one will block a negligible amount. Or there's always mesh, if you can find something small enough to keep small fish in and can get a lid made.

Agreed lol and I'm still miffed about the dodgy salt mix they sold me. Still finding bits of dog hair in my water, and I don't have a dog. Good thing I had my own salt on hand because I had to add a full cup just to get it in acceptable range. The water in the bottom of the jug was literally brown with mud and dust.

Oh yeah, and they have a ~5gal on display absolutely packed with corals... guess they think I was born yesterday

I'm reading firefish are a little jumpy. Would rather not chance it when there are other options I can be more confident with. I'm a sucker for designer clowns. I think I recall being told on here an ocellaris should be okay with a small tank mate, so long as the clown was added last? Then again I've also read 10gal is not enough for a clown period.

The tank is a standard rimmed rectangular by Aqueon. Cutting plastic is a pain and I'd prefer not to block any light. Mesh is a good idea. I'm more than happy to build one myself.

 

[Magnapinna]

Where are you in Atlanta? There's several good stores. Join AtlantaReefClub.org ..we have a ton of members and there are ton of people that can help you out. You're more than welcome to come grab some rock or whatever from me if you want...just shoot me a pm

Thanks! I'm ~1hr south of downtown, been to a couple nice stores (really liked Atlanta Aquarium up in Duluth) but I don't want to make the trip north of town without being sure they'll work with me.

My store has good reviews overall but I've fallen out of love with them. Sliming and colorless zoas, hair algae infestations, always seem to have sick fish. I've seen them try to sell a couple. I've seen them attempt to sell freshwater fish sick enough that I'd have euthanized them in my own tanks. I'd sooner drive to Birmingham honestly. They have a pretty sweet little store out there

 

[billyocean]

There's plenty of arc members south of Atlanta that could help you out as well..great community

 

[Sump Crab]

What about a TBS treasure chest?

That LFS is trash

 

[Kayvon]

Try some garf grunge.

 

[Magnapinna]

What about a TBS treasure chest?

That LFS is trash

I've looked at them but I have no use for 5lbs+ of rock, which it seems is the smallest quantity they offer.

Not even considering the cost, with lows in the teens and unreliable post, I'm wary of online orders. "Ships to your door" is a red flag for me because I live in a gated community, where doorstep delivery may as well be an urban legend. Signatures? As if. Parcel gets thrown in a locker that requires an automated code to access, which you may or may not receive. I've had livestock shipped a few times, paid for overnight, and not one order has arrived on time. Then they spent an extra hour or two stuck in the locker because my leasing office wouldn't give me access. All of my outbound livestock shipments have gotten stuck at the Atlanta distro center as well, again despite overnight payment. Not worth the headache to me at all.

With the knowledge I can toss some inverts in, I might just stock a hermit or two and go from there. Would rather spend time than waste money.

 

[jda]

You can get most bacterial strains from fish guts. Once you get some fish, these will develop.

With the rock, I would focus on micro critters and stuff. Pods (not all come in a bottle), mini brittle starfish, worms, etc. IPSF is good for this, as mentioned above.

Once you tank is far enough along in the cycle to not have high nitrite levels anymore, then you can get some inverts. This is usually about when the algae starts to grow. The algae will consume fish waste directly (like ammonia) and this starts another stage of grow and change in that cycle.

 

[MnFish1]

That's what I thought --- so it brings back the same question though, how do I get the algae without having to buy loads of different cultures?

I think you can add a clean up crew 'today'. Algae will grow in a couple days - at least enough for them. Snails etc also each fish food - so you can also add a small amount every couple days. Your microbiome will change either way over time.

 

[Magnapinna]

Hey guys. I'm still stuck on this unfortunately. LFS said it's not safe to stock until my tank is 8mo-1yr old and they won't sell me any livestock until then. Right now it's 1mo and still sterile, absolutely no non-bacterial diversity whatsoever, not even diatoms. The tank looks exactly the same as the day I set it up. Even if they would sell me a snail or something I don't know how I'd feed it since there's nothing for it to graze on. But since I can't add any animals, I don't know how to introduce the smaller critters. I'm hesitant to just dump a bunch of algae in but I don't know how else to get it growing.

 

[jda]

New LFS, maybe?

 

[Tired]

Well, you could always go in and lie to them. Tell them it's a gift for a friend whose tank is 5 years old. They've been lying to you- it's only fair. I am genuinely being serious here. If you have absolutely no other LFS options and can't order anything online, lying's probably worth a shot.

I'd make a post in the WTB section and/or on any local reefing areas asking if anyone will sell you some bits of stuff. I'd bet someone would be happy to ship you a bunch of algae-encrusted shells and plugs for the cost of one of those little flat-rate boxes, or you might have someone in your area who'd give you stuff.

Heck, if you're interested, DM me. I've got a clean, fallow tank, started with live rock, that I could send you a bunch of scrapings and shell bits and such from. Algae spores would probably survive getting frozenish in the mail in a padded envelope.

 

[Magnapinna]

I think you can add a clean up crew 'today'. Algae will grow in a couple days - at least enough for them. Snails etc also each fish food - so you can also add a small amount every couple days. Your microbiome will change either way over time.

I understand the microbiome will change with time, but I'm concerned about adding anything living to a new and sterile tank. My LFS said it's not safe to stock inverts or fish until the tank is 8mo-1yr old at the very minimum and no corals for ~2 years. But I honestly don't understand how waiting that long will benefit me if there's no biodiversity in there to establish itself; the tank is going to be sterile regardless if it's a completely isolated system...

I've read mixed opinions on the snails. I understand some hermits will eat fish food but I've also heard they aren't reef-safe and are hard to eradicate once established. Is there any truth to that?

 

[Magnapinna]

New LFS, maybe?

There are a couple north of town I'm planning to visit. I can't get there for a couple weeks though, and I'm honestly getting frustrated because I feel like with all the time I've spent trying to seed this tank, I could have had some decent diversity by now. My only convenient option at this point is my local Petco, whose animals frankly look healthier overall than my LFS, but I'm not sure it's worth the gamble? Or if they even have enough of a microbiome going to make any difference --- their tanks look about as sterile as mine

 

[Magnapinna]

Well, you could always go in and lie to them. Tell them it's a gift for a friend whose tank is 5 years old. They've been lying to you- it's only fair. I am genuinely being serious here. If you have absolutely no other LFS options and can't order anything online, lying's probably worth a shot.

I'd make a post in the WTB section and/or on any local reefing areas asking if anyone will sell you some bits of stuff. I'd bet someone would be happy to ship you a bunch of algae-encrusted shells and plugs for the cost of one of those little flat-rate boxes, or you might have someone in your area who'd give you stuff.

Heck, if you're interested, DM me. I've got a clean, fallow tank, started with live rock, that I could send you a bunch of scrapings and shell bits and such from. Algae spores would probably survive getting frozenish in the mail in a padded envelope.

Lol I was thinking about that too. I just don't know how true the time frame they're giving me is and I would hate to kill an animal by putting it in an unstable environment.

I'm planning another visit to another LFS but it's going to be a couple weeks. It's been a full month and the cycle sure looks stable --- I'm frankly getting kind of annoyed with the delayed progress. My local Petco has healthy-looking livestock but I'm not sure if a chain store is worth the gamble, or if they even have enough microbial biodiversity to benefit me. Their tanks look pretty sterile, but at least not conquered by hair algae or aiptasia like my LFS lol...

Temperatures have been in the teens and may drop to the single digits next week so I'm not sold on shipping yet. Once it warms up I'll be much more open to it, but I'd rather get something going before then. Just want to be sure it's safe. I'm concerned with the lack of grazing opportunities.

 

[saltcats]

I've read mixed opinions on the snails. I understand some hermits will eat fish food but I've also heard they aren't reef-safe and are hard to eradicate once established. Is there any truth to that?

I haven't had issues with my blue leg hermits; sure they might attack snails but to be honest mine never have. I provide them with plenty of empty shells to pick from, I think that helps. My snails knock my corals over far more frequently than my hermits ever do.

Not sure how you mean hard to eradicate; they don't reproduce in the tank (so far as I understand anyway) so you'll have a finite number. I find them cute and fun to watch! Mine have really enjoyed offerings of frozen mysis and dried nori.
Not sure how it'd be shipped this time of year but I remember I ordered empty hermit shells off blue zoo aquatics once and those came shipped wet in saltwater and had a good amount of stuff on them; that might be a good option for seeding your tank. I think they must keep them in their main system, there was a couple types of corraline on the shells I got and I'm 99% certain that's where the larval sea apple that showed up in my tank came in from.

 

[Magnapinna]

I haven't had issues with my blue leg hermits; sure they might attack snails but to be honest mine never have. I provide them with plenty of empty shells to pick from, I think that helps. My snails knock my corals over far more frequently than my hermits ever do.

Not sure how you mean hard to eradicate; they don't reproduce in the tank (so far as I understand anyway) so you'll have a finite number. I find them cute and fun to watch! Mine have really enjoyed offerings of frozen mysis and dried nori.
Not sure how it'd be shipped this time of year but I remember I ordered empty hermit shells off blue zoo aquatics once and those came shipped wet in saltwater and had a good amount of stuff on them; that might be a good option for seeding your tank. I think they must keep them in their main system, there was a couple types of corraline on the shells I got and I'm 99% certain that's where the larval sea apple that showed up in my tank came in from.

I didn't think they'd reproduce in the tank either. That honestly confused me. I read it on another forum. I guess maybe they meant if they go into hiding?

I'm not too worried about the snails. What I read (on aforementioned forum) was that they would damage/eat corals, so they shouldn't go into a tank that will have corals in the future. Again, not sure if this is actually true or just some internet anon making stuff up.

Shipping is a hard no as long as it's <15° out. My LFS has some blue legs in stock, if I could somehow get them to sell to me --- I'd REALLY rather avoid north ATL if at all possible lol

 

[Tired]

That timeframe is utter nonsense. A tank cycled with dry rock and bottled bacteria is ready for fish and hardy inverts in a week. 8 months to a year is the (very approximate) timeline for getting a tank mature enough from a sterile start to have a chance at supporting the fussier anemones and things like acroporas. I really would just go lie to the place.

A chain store will generally have too many pathogens to be worth buying from. That's the biodiversity you don't want.

There are reef-safe hermit crab species. I like scarlet reef hermits for being docile. There are coral-eating hermit crabs, but they aren't commonly sold- stick to scarlet reefs, blue legs, and/or zebras, and you're fine. They're not at all hard to eradicate- just pull them out.
Note that they will potentially eat coral if starved, and will eat dead/dying coral flesh. That can get them blamed for eating corals sometimes.