Is a PAR Meter Worth it

[BeanAnimal]

A better false equivalency are the people who take their cars to the dyno to get a horsepower reading. Nobody needs it and their sled won't be any faster, but they just want to know. There is also a small subset of folks on an online message board that need to know the reading if they want to fine tune other things. The normal public is mostly oblivious. To each their own.

lol - i almost wrote the dyno analogy

"Just got a new sports car and I want to learn to road race at a local sunday open track, but I am on a really limited budget. Some people say I should get it dyno tested."

"Yes dyno testing will help you get every inch of torque out of that thing. I would rent some dyno time and a programmer to see if you can get it dialed in better than the factory. If you can't afford that, you are IMHO in the wrong hobby"

I am not against dynos or PAR meters, they are just not tools that somebody new to either hobby needs to be successful, at all. Maybe down the road they make sense as a next step when budget allows or a tool to move to the next level.

 

[jda]

I will also add that if anybody wants more data points to keep live things happy, then we should encourage this. If they care enough to ask, then they likely are willing to give better care to live things, which is good for the whole hobby.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I will also add that if anybody wants more data points to keep live things happy, then we should encourage this. If they care enough to ask, then they likely are willing to give better care to live things, which is good for the whole hobby.

I do not disagree with that at all.

 

[Hooz]

I do not disagree with that at all.

So a PAR meter rental is a useful tool to take your tank "to the next level", but not to set your new tank up for success?

I'll stand by my comment that someone who isn't willing to spend the cost of one frag to get their lights setup correctly would be much happier in any one of several other hobbies.

 

[BeanAnimal]

So a PAR meter rental is a useful tool to take your tank "to the next level", but not to set your new tank up for success?

You are struggling to maintain context.

Yes, a PAR meter can be a useful tool in some circumstances, but in context to a new reef keeper on a constrained budget, it is not a needed tool. This is demonstrable in the fact that the vast majority of reef tanks have never seen a PAR meter.

You refuse to acknowledge that simple fact, to the point of saying:

If a new reefer can't afford (or isn't willing to spend on) a meter rental to setup his tank right from the outset, then they're in the wrong hobby.

And comparing anybody who disagrees with to somebody who says "seatbelts don't save lives" or somebody who denies the link between smoking and lung cancer.

You have skipped every salient point in this debate and keep moving your goal posts further from the point.

I'll stand by my comment that someone who isn't willing to spend the cost of one frag to get their lights setup correctly would be much happier in any one of several other hobbies.

The rub here is that you can't really define "correctly".

You want to ignore that fact that there is a tremendous body of information available about what fixtures and what settings not only work, but work extremely well over just about any size tank and the fact that most manufacturers, resellers and experienced hobbyists can offer accurate sizing and placement information FOR FREE.

You likewise want to ignore that fact that the overwhelming majority of reef tanks TODAY, let alone over the last 4 decades have never seen a PAR meter.

So you stand by your comment, even if it is patently uninformed and ridiculous.

 

[msloan21]

A reefer on Youtube compared an app with an Apogee par meter and the results were incredibly similar.

It convinced me and I bought a waterproof case for my phone and installed the app. It works really well and costs less than 20$.

Thanks for sharing this!!

 

[Narideth]

One would think that the very definition of leveling up a tank would be to get more expensive corals and then want to make certain you are setting yourself up for success.

Either way, I think this argument has maybe gotten a little beyond the point and it's not showing the best side of this community when we all know it's simply that we're all passionate about what we do, yeah?

I thank everyone who's chimed in, disparate viewpoints is how someone learns how to parse the wealth of information and opinion and experience available on hand these days.

 

[BeanAnimal]

One would think that the very definition of leveling up a tank would be to get more expensive corals and then want to make certain you are setting yourself up for success.

And that in itself is a whole interesting but tangent topic. While it is certainly possible to "go big or go home" without failure, I think the salient advice for anybody new is to start out slow and learn before taking on too much.

This forum (and many like it) are littered with threads where people take on way too much way too fast and then when things get sideways, they are in way over their heads because they don't have the basic feel for what they are doing, let alone how to combat an issue, especially on a large scale. In fact, I would suspect that such issues are responsible for more early exits from reefing, than any other reason.

Either way, I think this argument has maybe gotten a little beyond the point and it's not showing the best side of this community when we all know it's simply that we're all passionate about what we do, yeah?

It is what it is - the person I am debating is so welcoming that he openly says that people who won't or can't spend money on are PAR meter should be disqualified from participation anyway... yep, the best side of the community.

I thank everyone who's chimed in, disparate viewpoints is how someone learns how to parse the wealth of information and opinion and experience available on hand these days.

I know you are trying to be the moderate voice, but this venue, just like youtube, or any other is chock full of nonsense too...it is part o the "community".

Part of the struggle for many of us is actually trying to help newcomers filter out the hooey and separate fact from opinion or misinformation.

It is my opinion that telling a new reefer who has openly said they are on a very fixed budget that the first thing he or she needs to buy is a PAR meter and if they don't they should find a different hobby is not only smug and unwelcoming, but it is advice based on lack of knowledge. How does one help to teach new people if they refuse to learn themselves?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thanks for sharing this!!

I honestly don't see this being useful. There are just too many variables.
1 - the DIY diffusor. This will have a HUGE effect on the readings.
2 - as they show in the video, just a very slight tilt of the phone changes the value by over 100%

So yes - if you have a real par meter side by side with the phone you can fiddle with it to get "similar" values but without the reference, both to calibrate the DIY diffusor and ensure the phone is not off angle, then you are wasting your time.

The PAR sensor and diffusor and the phone sensor and diffusor are very different in the way that the collect and measure light.

Also they compared against the SQ-120 - which is less accurate (well different, lets say) than the 510 models

While that does not look much different, it in reality is.

Also - the funny part of the whole thing is that the Apogee meters had a pretty serious bug that substantially affected readings... Watch the BRS video where this gets brought up and kind of brushed under the rug.

My point here is twofold.

1 - the phone is pretty useless unless used side-by-side with a reference, making it pointless for the most part.

2 - we have been using these things at some level for 10-15 years and the numbers keep changing based on model and firmware, reinforcing the point that we are measuring very ballpark numbers. The thing shows 1s and 10s but the significance is likely in the 50s or 100s in the real world. So yeah a reading of 75 and a reading of 200 are different, but that 75 could be 50 or 100. and that 200 could be anywhere from 150 to 250.

3 - There is no "gold standard" - well there is, but no reasonable reefer can afford it. So most use the Apogee 120 series, and some splurge for the 510 series. They are different enough. Bring in the Seneye and other devices or DIY phone rigs and the readings are going to be wildly different. Take PAR readings with a grain of salt - they tell us in relative terms what is brighter or dimmer, but the actual numbers are not as reliable as you think they are.

 

[KenBabich]

I rented par meter from BRS. In the big picture of price of corals, 80 bucks fee is nominal and provide insight as opposed to guessing. How much are the cost of the corals you plan to purchase? Divvy the number of corals up by 80 bucks and you’ll see a good return on your investment. My suggestion is to turn off all flow so the water is still. Surface agitation will cause fluctuations in the reading as the light is refracting in various directions during agitation, l went about it, the cheap way and used a zip tie to anchor the par meter to the end of my algae scraper stick as opposed to buying the accompanying non-returnable par meter stick Kind of looked like a golf club. You will be surprised as to how the position of your lighting and depth of the tank comes into play. I even measured the part with different light settings again in light of the cost of coral and all the gear, 80 bucks is a good return on investment for the applicable knowledge it brings. BRS investigates did a comparison of various size tanks with various lights and presented par measurements. That helped me get an idea of where to position my lights, both horizontally and vertically.

 

[BeanAnimal]

So each of those 80 dollar corals comes with a manual telling you what PAR and what spectrum that they need?

What is the exact insight that you gained?

As we have established an arbitrary PAR reading (lets call it 175) from 3 different light sources tuned to 3 different spectrums will grow coral differently. Most of you are absolutely missing this point.

PAR is just a reference number to give you a very rough ballpark of the amount of light energy in a fairly broad spectrum, which magically also is our visible spectrum (let's not get into eye sensitivity vs wavelength) PAR is not by a longshot a definitive or accurate measure of the appropriate light level for a coral.

If we are measuring with still water, how does that number relate to when the lights are on and the surface is actually being agitated, as that is what the coral will be growing under?

Why are we not also telling the NEW reefer on a budget (the topic of this thread that so many of you are missing) to by a spectrometer? Entry level devices start at $299. By the exact same logic presented here by several of you, $299 is only a few frags, and spectral output is very important. In fact it is likely even more important than PAR and both together are really what we need to be looking at to draw the conclusions that you folks are drawing.

Oddly - Coral does not come with a manual telling you what spectrum and PAR it needs for best growth, color or health. Sure some reseller can tell you what they grew it under 175 PAR, but that number is meaningless without know the spectrum it was grown under.

The longer this thread goes on, the more evident it has become that most of you are repeating what somebody told you and touting the benefits of a tool, with out really understanding why or if what you are saying actually makes sense.

I will also put it out there again. The vast majority of reef tanks have never seen a PAR meter (let alone a spectrometer) anywhere near them...

 

[mizimmer90]

Entry level devices start at $299. By the exact same logic presented here by several of you, $299 is only a few frags, and spectral output is very important. In fact it is likely even more important than PAR and both together are really what we need to be looking at to draw the conclusions that you folks are drawing.

Not to derail this, and again, not saying the best way to spend $80 (I agree that under the constrained optimization, $80 would be better spent on a heater/refractometer/salt etc.), but I wanna plug that the VABIRA meter is only $180 to buy and it outputs total PAR as well as a coarse spectrum, i.e. RGB values lol

 

[Hooz]

It is what it is - the person I am debating is so welcoming that he openly says that people who won't or can't spend money on are PAR meter should be disqualified from participation anyway... yep, the best side of the community.

It is my opinion that telling a new reefer who has openly said they are on a very fixed budget that the first thing he or she needs to buy is a PAR meter and if they don't they should find a different hobby is not only smug and unwelcoming, but it is advice based on lack of knowledge. How does one help to teach new people if they refuse to learn themselves?

Ok. I think you got so deep in your anti-PAR meter campaign that you lost sight of what the OP actually asked, and what I actually said. The original question was if a PAR meter RENTAL was worth the money. Nowhere in my responses did I EVER say anything about having to BUY a PAR meter. In fact, I suggested some cheaper alternatives to the $80 BRS meter rental program. I suggested asking around local groups to see if someone had a meter to borrow (free), and to check with an LFS to see if they had one for rent (only $25 locally around me).

I 100% stand by my comment that if a (Free to $80) PAR meter rental is not "worth it" to you, then you would be much happier in another hobby. For the cost of your first two zoa frags, you can setup your lighting for success from the start. I'm not trying to discourage anyone... Just setting expectations.

A wise man once told me that there are three ways to do something:

1. You can do it well.
2. You can do it fast.
3. You can do it cheap.

He said, "Pick any two."

Since you seemed to like the car/dyno analogy, here's one for you...

Say you're driving your new car and the check engine light comes on. You don't notice anything off about the way the car is running. There doesn't seem to be anything major happening but, you know, the light is on. You have several options.

1. You can go buy a fancy, multi thousand dollar diagnostic station with all the bells and whistles, hook it up and see what's wrong with the car. I mean, this option would work for some people, right? If they can afford it and think that they'll use it enough to justify the cost, go for it!

2. You can do endless searching of online forums and tech/service bulletins for common issues with your year/make/model and maybe narrow down the issue based on other people's experiences. It may take you a few tries to track it down, or you may never actually fix what's wrong with the car.

3. You can get on Amazon and order a relatively cheap code reader. Maybe it's something simple like not tightening your gas cap correctly. Maybe it's something more serious, like a crank position sensor. Either way, that $100 meter will tell you what it is, and you'll have the peace of mind knowing that, at least this time, you're fixing the right thing.

4. You ask around and find out your buddy down the street has a code reader you can borrow. Same benefits as #3 above, except it doesn't cost you anything but time! Win-win!

5. You could just open the hood and start replacing things until the light goes off. You'll end up spending a LOT more money and wasting a LOT more time, but you might eventually get there, right?

6. You could just ignore the light altogether. Keep driving the car. Maybe nothing ever happens, maybe the light eventually goes off on its own, maybe your engine blows up in a week. Roll the dice and see what happens.

There are three main things you need to worry about to be successful in this hobby: Water chemistry, light and flow. Some would argue the order of importance, but I think everyone universally agrees that those three things are key. If you can get one of them dialed in from the day you setup your tank for low to no cost, why would you not?!

 

[jimfish98]

Anyone else used the app on the thread?

I have used the app on two systems with success. The app is free and you pay like $5 for the blue/white LED spectrum add on. When I got it the general understanding was to expect it to be about 10% lower than actual PAR which matches up pretty well with the video shared. I have used those measurements to guide my tanks and thus far it has been spot on.

 

[Hooz]

@BeanAnimal

Since you like to bring up the "PAR is worthless without PUR" thing, I'll illustrate something I said a few posts ago.

Here is a spectral graph for three different lights over-layed on top of each other to show how similar the spectrum (PUR) is. The lights are all available at WILDLY different price points, and all of them will grow coral.

Now, armed with the information in that graph, you can be relatively certain that you have the right spectrum to grow coral, from the $1000 name brand light to the $169 Chinese black box light. These days the spectrum is harder to mess up than it is to get right. So the only missing piece is the output (PAR) for what you plan to grow.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Ok. I think you got so deep in your anti-PAR meter campaign that you lost sight of what the OP actually asked,

The irony here is palpable. I am not by any means "anti-PAR meter" and I have not strayed in the slightest from the OPs context.

On the other hand, you have not entertained the OPs context from the get go and have quite literally taken the position(and reiterated it several times) that anybody who doesn't use a PAR meter shouldn't be in the hobby. You are a PAR meter zealot on a campaign. What you just did above is called projection or flipping the script.

I 100% stand by my comment that if a (Free to $80) PAR meter rental is not "worth it" to you, then you would be much happier in another hobby. For the cost of your first two zoa frags, you can setup your lighting for success from the start. I'm not trying to discourage anyone... Just setting expectations.

You keep repeating this - but can't actually answer A) what "setting up your lighting for success" actually means or B) why the vast majority if reef aquariums on planet earth have never seen a PAR meter under its lights.

A wise man once told me that there are three ways to do something:

Please use facts, not parable and fallacy.

Since you seemed to like the car/dyno analogy, here's one for you...

The car/dyno analogy fit. In the kindest way possible - I don't think you understand what an analogy is or how to apply it.

An analogy takes the form
A is to B as C is to D
When misapplied, you end up with any of a number of classical forms of fallacy.

There are three main things you need to worry about to be successful in this hobby: Water chemistry, light and flow. Some would argue the order of importance, but I think everyone universally agrees that those three things are key. If you can get one of them dialed in from the day you setup your tank for low to no cost, why would you not?!

You are chasing your tail here to avoid reality. You can't define what "dialed in" is and at the same time are ignoring the wealth of lighting information available form manufacturers, resellers and other users. One does not need a PAR meter to light an aquarium and grow coral. PERIOD.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I have used the app on two systems with success. The app is free and you pay like $5 for the blue/white LED spectrum add on. When I got it the general understanding was to expect it to be about 10% lower than actual PAR which matches up pretty well with the video shared. I have used those measurements to guide my tanks and thus far it has been spot on.

LoL spot on to what?

You folks are running around measuring things with some (rather large) amount of error in both PAR and clueless of spectrum but "tweaking things" to be "spot on". SPOT ON TO WHAT?

 

[BeanAnimal]

@BeanAnimal

Since you like to bring up the "PAR is worthless without PUR" thing, I'll illustrate something I said a few posts ago.

That is not what I said. You have a reading context issue that makes this conversation (at best) frustrating.

Now, armed with the information in that graph, you can be relatively certain that you have the right spectrum to grow coral, from the $1000 name brand light to the $169 Chinese black box light. These days the spectrum is harder to mess up than it is to get right. So the only missing piece is the output (PAR) for what you plan to grow.

Again, the irony here is palpable - you are making the case against your own position and don't even realize it.

Somebody else did the measurements - all you need to do is buy the light, tune it to what they did and hang it at the recommended distance for your size tank. BOOM - no PAR METER. You tried to argue that "in the old days" we didn't need them because we didn't have variable spectrum (that is hooey too, we had dozens of different halides and t5 and pc combination) but now LEDs are so variable that we need a PAR meter to sort it out... then you post "Nah this graph shoes just about any spectrum works".

You have floundered all over this subject. There is no argument here, you are in so far over your head that you are contradicting your own points.

 

[KandAReefs]

It depends on what you are really looking for. If you want to know exactly what the light is on all your reef go for it but there are so many people that have done the work you could use the light program they do and just use the info they have on what it should be at the given distance from the light. I normally don't care to know exactly myself as long as I have a ballpark number.

 

[dandi]

Check out this thread maybe someone can shed more light on this

Why are lights mounted so high in propagation facilities?

These fixtures are mounted what appears to be feet off the water. Their systems are doing extremely well. Can anyone explain why this is the case. I will have a fish room so the any height of the fixture can be utilized. If this has been discussed before my apologies. Happy reefing Dan

www.reef2reef.com