Is DSB crash just a myth?

[flsalty]

Based on personal experience, I disagree with those who say worms and such will not go to the bottom of a DSB. At least not true for a 3-4" one. I had a 55 with a 3"+ DSB with sand I collected from the surf. It had no sump. I could see tunnels going down to the bottom from the side. One day I got curious and looked at the bottom with a flashlight. TONS of life down there. I would check it out often. My wife would just chuckle at me laying on my back with my head stuck in the stand.

I can't attest to the longevity because it was only set up for a few years. In those few years nothing got gummed up. The worms made sure of that. If they started showing signs of fading away I would have just added some more "wild sand".

 

[zoomonster]

In 30 years never had a bare bottom. I've had various sandbed's and a pvc plenum in an old 90. Let me just say this is where old tank syndrome comes from IMO. My current 200g is going on 7 years and has ~4-5" sandbed and it is starting to have issues. Despite GFO and bio reactor I'm having a hard time keeping phosphates and nitrates in check. I'm starting the process of a major overhaul with major water changes, removing sections of rock (I have a lot) and a thorough cleaning of the sandbed which I hate to do with the teeming life like various pods, mini stars, worms and sand sifters like nasarious snails. Soft corals and anemones love my tank but that's about it which is about to change. Big fan of wrasses so sandbeds are a given for me.

 

[brandon429]

Hey that job sounds wonderful really it does. There's a need for retaining biodiversity and clearing as much waste as possible.

Why not do this job all at once/ marathon weekend clean tank reassemble. By doing it all at once, we can use old tank water to flush out live rock, with corals intact, out in the sink, and then sieve or seine as much wiggle life out of the current sandbed. You'd safely remove it all at once, extract the goods, put back into a brand new 100% pre rinsed cloud free sand. A skip cycle cleaning and bed replant has been logged many times in the sand rinse thread.


Working all at once is safer than in portions when swapping sbeds

 

[brandon429]

120 gallon rip clean

I’ve decided to perform a rip clean on my 120 with 100% new water. The tank has been running for 5 years and was battling Dino for several months. I used the bacteria method from elegant corals and worked great I haven’t seen Dino in months now. But I tried several other methods including...

www.reef2reef.com

The exact surgical process + tap rinse sandbed totally clean + reassemble with dinner plate sized coral.

The custom part for you is right before reassembly.



Use all new sand, less phosphate contact time.

When everything is cloud free, add in your selected sandbed transfers. Reassemble new water or with partial pre drained off tank water, pulled before the disassembly job. I can guarantee safety if zero cloud reassembly is done.


Specifically, the bacteria on your live rock are enough to run double your bioload, what happens to sandbed bacteria absolutely does not matter.


One of the enduring misnomers in reefing is the claim that live rock must be given time to 'take on' replacement bacteria from a sandbed removal, that the tank is adapted to the level of bacteria and it can't be removed all at once


Not true, doesn't work that way, Jon specifically did just that with $ on the line and years of growth to preserve.

Live rock is sufficient surface area on its own, surrounding surface area is simple excess, to rip it out doesn't create a deficit, it's the safest way.

 

[jda]

^ these posts have some of the largest bunch of nonsense in them. I usually try to just ignore, but I fear that good people will be led astray from an internet reefer. Have you any actual experience that you can demonstrate to show that anything that you type has worked in your home? This sounds like "read about it on the internet" 101 without any actual experience. What a bunch of garbage.

 

[jda]

@zoomonster

Vacuum a small amount of the sand like I posted. 10% is fine, then do 10% more every month for a year, or so. This will get the denitrification started again. Be thorough. There is no reason why this cannot work like it did. None. You have to go slow to let the microfauna and bacteria repopulate to the correct areas.

The phosphate is from lack of export over the the years and the aragonite has bound a lot. This is reversible, but it will take time and GFO or Lan Chloride. Most people do not know or think about aragonite binding phosphate, and it has caused a lot of issues in the past, and still does.

The tank did not get like this overnight, and it will not get back overnight. If you want to get it back to where it was, then let me know and I can help you. Old Tank Syndrome = Lack of Maintenance. It does not have to stay like this.

 

[brandon429]

did you open jons example thread and read it? why not respond specifically where the work is done and appreciated

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

discount all the work as easily, thats a lot of follow through.

i dont see better example threads so far.

 

[jda]

Here are examples of my work... colonies over years and years (since 1992, to be exact)... not boogers on frag plugs. Check out the sand in the tank. There is a whole Flickr album to browse.

I only post about my own experiences unless I state otherwise (which I do sometimes offer things that I have read or heard, but I mark it as such).

 

[brandon429]

nice tank, that has not been moved disturbed no interim pics no sand separated no video no documenting that cloud move was safe etc
(the whole point of his job above)
not that the coral growth is bad, its quite savory tabletopping. I like how the non coral areas are not algae crusted they're different shades of coralline, nice lifespan to those rocks, nice reef base. it looks like a forest of elk antlers acknowledged

 

[Scott Campbell]

Despite the 10,543 posts by Brandon to the contrary - deep sand beds, detritus and fish waste do not cause tank crashes. Improper or insufficient export of nutrients relative to import is the problem. If you are putting considerably more nutrients into your tank than you are exporting, then you will eventually encounter problems. Regardless of the export mechanism. That export mechanism can be 100% water changes and manual removal of waste by siphon as practiced by Brandon, it can be macroalgae growth and removal, it can be skimmate removal (perhaps augmented by carbon dosing), it can be a deep sand bed, it can be a hundred different combinations of methods. But no matter the method - if you overwhelm your system's ability to process and remove the nutrients added to the tank each day; that growing imbalance will eventually cause harm.

That usually means keeping fewer fish, keeping utility fish that can graze on algae and worms to reduce the food added to the tank, a large amount of microfauna to support each fish, strong export procedures or a combination of export methods - that sort of stuff. But most people don't want to do that. Most people want a lot of fish in a relatively small space and don't want to deal with worms and bugs and algae. And that is a challenge. Failing that challenge usually means a lot of unprocessed waste building up in a tank. A skimmer, worms in a sand bed, chaeto growth, roller pads, whatever - they can only process and export waste at a given rate.

Blaming the sand that contains the excess waste is silly.

 

[jda]

I feel like I am hitting a moving target here... Here is what Brandon posted in #67, which I replied to, which then got edited. You need to stop editing posts unless for a typo or some clerical thing... it is just bad form.

Jda, you have no example threads?

did you open jons example thread and read it?

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-official-sand-rinse-thread-aka-one-against-many.230281/

you simply type web opinions and post no example work of any risk you've taken or guided.

ok post back

In any case, I will continue to post my experiences. I can make a tank with sand function and work for years and years, but it does need maintenance. The only downside to this method is that about ever three years, I have to tear the colonies out and I start over with frags - this is kinda heartbreaking, but also offers new opportunities... I just did this about a month ago.

 

[Dana Riddle]

I haven't waded through all the posts but will relay my experiences. My current reef uses fine sand and detritus tends to stay on the top, where spaghetti worms trap it or fighting conchs (perhaps emerald crabs as well) eat it. There's also good water motion where small particles are swept away, eventually ending up in the filter socks or removed by skimming. I can stir the sand bed and very little detritus is seen. Back in the 90's, I had a tank with coarse aragonite sand. Hurricane Opal blew through Atlanta with gusts to 80 mph and we lost power for 3-4 days. Lost everything in that tank but lost nothing in the 110-gallon tank that had a bare bottom.

 

[BZOFIQ]

I haven't waded through all the posts but will relay my experiences. My current reef uses fine sand and detritus tends to stay on the top, where spaghetti worms trap it or fighting conchs (perhaps emerald crabs as well) eat it. There's also good water motion where small particles are swept away, eventually ending up in the filter socks or removed by skimming. I can stir the sand bed and very little detritus is seen. Back in the 90's, I had a tank with coarse aragonite sand. Hurricane Opal blew through Atlanta with gusts to 80 mph and we lost power for 3-4 days. Lost everything in that tank but lost nothing in the 110-gallon tank that had a bare bottom.

Coarse sand was your problem here, it's like a coarse sponge waiting to be filled with detritus. Eaons ago I only used fine sand in freshwater tanks when I realized all the fish poop just swirls on top of the sand until it gets blown and sucked into the filter. I applied the same logic when I switched to salt. It's the fine sand that I have used in my setups with zero problems to report. I saved the sand from my last time, thoroughly washed it and used a set of sieves to only keep fine uniform sand for the new build. I will reuse all of it again once the new tank goes up. I am not sure what PaulB is saying but my sand never ever compacted, neither in my tank nor my DSB, there was plenty of life to move things around.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Coarse sand was your problem here, it's like a coarse sponge waiting to be filled with detritus. Eaons ago I only used fine sand in freshwater tanks when I realized all the fish poop just swirls on top of the sand until it gets blown and sucked into the filter. I applied the same logic when I switched to salt. It's the fine sand that I have used in my setups with zero problems to report. I saved the sand from my last time, thoroughly washed it and used a set of sieves to only keep fine uniform sand for the new build. I will reuse all of it again once the new tank goes up. I am not sure what PaulB is saying but my sand never ever compacted, neither in my tank nor my DSB, there was plenty of life to move things around.

Agreed! I failed to make that clear in my previous post. Coarse sand becomes a detritus dump.

 

[brandon429]

Jda your opinion on editing: not factored. handy feature. handy context adjuster.

I predicted pages back personal testimony vs actual work threads with examples, the argument imbalance that results in every sandbed thread and that's still holding. By page 20, no difference

every day we take on new work, that will be logged for comparison as pages unfold.

Scott and Jda, not having to log work and deal with noncompliant examples/ you write passionately from that insulated perspective.




I dont know why you wont use your time effectively sourcing out and dealing with work requests, it develops a unique perspective. When I write about sand its a reflection of near constant actual work, shown above, its not to inflame you. Its hard for me to accept your claims seeing only a top down shot of your reef, nothing dynamic.

asking you to simply deal with public sandbeds and log the work is to see if you can manage them another way and be consistent. You have ignored the request literally for years.

 

[Scott Campbell]

Jda your opinion on editing: not factored. handy feature. handy context adjuster.

I predicted pages back personal testimony vs actual work threads with examples, the argument imbalance that results in every sandbed thread and that's still holding. By page 20, no difference

every day we take on new work, that will be logged for comparison as pages unfold.

Scott and Jda, not having to log work and deal with noncompliant examples/ you write passionately from that insulated perspective.




I dont know why you wont use your time effectively sourcing out and dealing with work requests, it develops a unique perspective. When I write about sand its a reflection of near constant actual work, shown above, its not to inflame you. Its hard for me to accept your claims seeing only a top down shot of your reef, nothing dynamic.

asking you to simply deal with public sandbeds and log the work is to see if you can manage them another way and be consistent. You have ignored the request literally for years.

Not sure how I set up a "work thread" to support the assertion that any method or combination of methods will work as long as you don't overwhelm the processing capacity of that method.

Tearing down a tank, rinsing the sand and starting over is a rather straightforward solution to most any problem. I have no doubt it works and that you can document the hundreds of times it has worked. I'm not sure it is a very efficient way to manage an aquarium long term however. Perhaps a very small aquarium.

Again, the problem is not the waste. The problem is generating waste faster than your tank / filtration method / export mechanism can process the waste. Worms in a sandbed are very effective. Unless you smother the worms with waste faster than they can deal with the waste. You can mitigate the problem with finer sand, occasional sand siphoning, supplemental filtration methods, more microfauna, fewer fish, larger water changes, etc - but the core issue remains balancing export to import. And you can achieve that balance with a rather infinite combination of strategies, filtration approaches and export methods. The proof is the thousands of successful tanks all run slightly differently. This whole forum is a "work thread" proving there is no one right way to maintain a successful tank.

 

[brandon429]

I hear you on that. see if you agree this would be specialized sandbed work out of the norm plus quite fun to attempt:

in the emergency forum or in the nuisance algae forum on most days, there are invasion challenge threads where sandbeds are nearly always in play. they ask for a tank turnaround, something where they don’t make excuses to every viewer. They want a clean reef. Budge your way in and sell a specific action set, see if you can command a result in their tank, several entrants are willing to do action or inaction set X if you’ll deliver a more balanced tank. Use nitrate and phosphate tuning to help/ earn after pics, not by rinsing. Be using an alternate method to change the sandbeds back to what works best, maybe dosing with certain bottle bac strains or buy pod kits, those are real possibilities. Be delivering the outcomes they ask for using a sand preserving method.

just in this thread we have a sand swap work mention. In the new keepers forum, and in gen forum, if you keep an eye out you will see home move prep request threads + upgrade/combine reef threads those are very serious works because recycled tanks kill peoples fish and corals. Try to implement ways of combining and moving their tanks to new homes without rinsing, log the works.

in my opinion the hobby will benefit when alternates to rinsing/lowering diversity are sought and worked. Plus it’s fun, there’s decent challenge in re training someone’s misbehaving bed into something compliant. be right in the middle of where the work is, I think waste in between the grains and that overall balance you mentioned matters greatly in move preps and invasion follow-thoughs.

people need repeatable clear methods they can use to control a sandbed, working in others tanks makes you apply repeating patterns in your approach to handle everyone’s unspoken details and variation.

 

[BZOFIQ]

I hear you on that. see if you agree this would be specialized sandbed work out of the norm plus quite fun to attempt:

in the emergency forum or in the nuisance algae forum on most days, there are invasion challenge threads where sandbeds are nearly always in play. they ask for a tank turnaround, something where they don’t make excuses to every viewer. They want a clean reef. Budge your way in and sell a specific action set, see if you can command a result in their tank, several entrants are willing to do action or inaction set X if you’ll deliver a more balanced tank. Use nitrate and phosphate tuning to help/ earn after pics, not by rinsing. Be using an alternate method to change the sandbeds back to what works best, maybe dosing with certain bottle bac strains or buy pod kits, those are real possibilities. Be delivering the outcomes they ask for using a sand preserving method.

just in this thread we have a sand swap work mention. In the new keepers forum, and in gen forum, if you keep an eye out you will see home move prep request threads + upgrade/combine reef threads those are very serious works because recycled tanks kill peoples fish and corals. Try to implement ways of combining and moving their tanks to new homes without rinsing, log the works.

in my opinion the hobby will benefit when alternates to rinsing/lowering diversity are sought and worked. Plus it’s fun, there’s decent challenge in re training someone’s misbehaving bed into something compliant. be right in the middle of where the work is, I think waste in between the grains and that overall balance you mentioned matters greatly in move preps and invasion follow-thoughs.

people need repeatable clear methods they can use to control a sandbed, working in others tanks makes you apply repeating patterns in your approach to handle everyone’s unspoken details and variation.

I don't think anybody here said you can move an established DSB. Moving a tank requires different approach. When I bought a house I moved everything sans sand. Setting up anew, sand will be included along with DSB.

That said, pulling a whole tank apart to clean it as you (or someone) suggest is absurd. That would only work with the current trend of what I call "Display Frag Tanks". In an established tanks the corals have closed all gaps between live rock.

 

[Spartyparty]

I know all of you have a lot of experience. Years and possibly decades of keeping marine tanks. But isn’t it just practical that during water changes( which I believe is the key to success) to vacuum the top layer of sand weekly or bi weekly to get rid of built of detritus and funk just the way it should be done? I’ve worked in a Lfs back in the 80’s and had marine tanks with undergravel filters, and then trickle filters and hang on The back filters, Sumps and all the different kinds of filters. But I was always taught to vacuum the sand Bed during g water changes? Haven’t had a problem yet. Fine sand, crushed coral, aragonite? I don’t know? Never was taught by the old timers to just leave it alone. My experience tell me if i
Wrong?

 

[brandon429]

Yes Sparty agreed.


BZOFIQ
You literally did not click or open either example to see the direct requests from the posters for a job. I tell them exactly how to do an action to preserve their tank, been working six years plus it's linked here.




Absurd is me asking you to run a reef tank in a way that makes it kill your stuff when it's touched, I get the vibe you'd recommend that to these readers or not test procedural advice to know if that's the outcome if you're fully against rinsing

Be working where the requests are, let me see a better way. My advice is to run your sandbed in a safer manner, not compiling waste. Either pre clean or catch up clean, but don't impact it where me reaching in and grabbing sand wipes your whole tank


Show me your work so your point will be clear, I can't see how you'd recommend any form of sandbed work at all, pre or post move from your type, what do you suggest for the requested work if not the waste excluding way.