IS IT TRUE THAT 80% OF PEOPLE WILL HAVE FISH LOSSES DUE TO DISEASE/PARASITES IN FIRST 8 MONTHS IF DONT QUARANTINE ?

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MnFish1

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Actually, when in doubt I agree with @Paul B as the longevity of his tank speaks for itself!
No. it doesnt - he had a specific tank with specific inhabitants. He has had success with those - which is great - I've had my current tank up for - prob - 10 years. - who cares - multiple things - based on things outside my control - have caused losses (I've posted them)

Its easy now - In fact I will pay for it Aquabiomics - to prove that @PaulB has pathogens in his tank - providing immunity. My guess is no pathogens will be found - thus - the concept of feeding 'parasites' is a falsehood. How that for starting an issue
 

i cant think

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Yeah I was trying to get a rough gauge of how many fish die from not qt from everyone and not just people who started a thread saying they got sick fish or fishes dead.
And above post makes a good point of more experienced people will have better chance of knowing what to do or what medication to dose if got a sick fish so less likely to start a thread asking how or what dieseses there fish actually have as I know for 6 years now im constantly researching. In average day I'm looking/ researching 2- 4 hours about anything saltwater related whether it be threads on here or articles or videos etc
I’ve been here for 10 or so years and you’d think with no qt ive messed and been hit with some horrendous diseases but the reality is ive only faces on disease and it was a minor ich out break so I’m always researching more diseases and what signs of them are.
 

astiesi

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No. it doesnt - he had a specific tank with specific inhabitants. He has had success with those - which is great - I've had my current tank up for - prob - 10 years. - who cares - multiple things - based on things outside my control - have caused losses (I've posted them)

Its easy now - In fact I will pay for it Aquabiomics - to prove that @PaulB has pathogens in his tank - providing immunity. My guess is no pathogens will be found - thus - the concept of feeding 'parasites' is a falsehood. How that for starting an issue
Not saying that his way is the only way to get there but I don't think I can argue that getting that end result is the goal most should strive for. In fact, my latest build is dry rock (been dry since tearing down my 65 about 5 years ago) so I'm expecting a far different experience this time then my previous tanks which were all started with live rock.
 

i cant think

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Not saying that his way is the only way to get there but I don't think I can argue that getting that end result is the goal most should strive for. In fact, my latest build is dry rock (been dry since tearing down my 65 about 5 years ago) so I'm expecting a far different experience this time then my previous tanks which were all started with live rock.
I don’t think anyone has a completely disease free tank, it could be hiding in the sand and just waiting for the perfect fish and time to strike. It’s been shown in several cases a fallow tank has still had an outbreak of something at some point and it usually starts when a sensitive fish or two have been put into the tank.
 
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MnFish1

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Not saying that his way is the only way to get there but I don't think I can argue that getting that end result is the goal most should strive for. In fact, my latest build is dry rock (been dry since tearing down my 65 about 5 years ago) so I'm expecting a far different experience this time then my previous tanks which were all started with live rock.
Agreed - my guess - is from a scientific basis - he has no parasite DNA in his tank
 

jtf74

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And this says a lot - because what your results seem to suggest is that you could potentially have dropped them in the tank?
I could have. I could have also lost them all if one of them did have something, just like what happened when I first started in the hobby and just plopped them into DT.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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thats a basic poll from the disease forum on qt practices, a calm one, not all angry etc.

What Jay writes at the end is written so well, it's pure professional experience he's writing from, he's a person who spends more time helping others with their tanks vs reviewing his own reefs, that's a prime example of where I try to get training to relay to folks who are working cycle problems.

I wanted to show how the forum a challenge is posted in, and the title of the thread, influences advised participation. this is what new tank owners face when they try and skim out the best way to get a working reef without 3 year's wait.

Its our job as umpires, procedural critics, to offer what we see above as the majority theme.

It doesnt matter if someone here really doesn't have to quarantine, do we really expect newbs to be as good as someone who's already versed in no quarantine approaches? I've always asked my critics to state what they think is best for new tankers, match the advice to the average skill level

Its neat above how we can see a stark theme unfolding, then again its the disease forum I wouldnt expect that poll to go oppositely until its posted in the new tanks forum or chemistry forum. Then, the ratio will be 90% NO quarantine its bad for fish, 10% qt. the skews flop based on a thread title and where its positioned, but if we sample there a specific mode is advised and its not safety stop or other options which really are so common out in the other forums. its standard high quality quarantine, and fallow, for both prevention and for remediation. Anytime I wrote anything about fish disease it wasn't because I own fish, it was because I can read patterns and the strongest retention comes from Jay's advice. it does not come from old tank owners telling newbs to skip fish preps, or from telling them to wait longer for tank maturity. they're not going to wait...so given those details, all I can see to stem these losses is to recommend what Jay recommends.


it would be nice if passionate posters here answered me on these two scenario settings, these are our top two settings in which people are trying to decide if they can add fish or not:

1/ all dry start reef, several marco rocks, caribsea live sand, bottle bac cycle completed. when can they begin carrying fish, and what's the max speciation they can use? two clowns? two juvenile purple tangs given a promise to upgrade soon? lemme know species options and expected safe stocking densities for a common biocube 32 for example. What disease preps if any should the common all dry start bottle bac cycle all white surfaces run?


2/ live rock skip cycle transfers. the tanks may be new glass, but they've moved over half the scape or all the scape from another system and we can plainly see coralline and attached algae and pigmentations that are biomarkers of age...color palette in the pic isn't hospital white everywhere, its reefy but they technically just assembled it all last week. speciation? can they get away with more fish in the biocube 32? number of fish is different? what disease preps do my harshest critics here recommend. if they're reasonable Ill begin the relay of your info.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Ying I dont think anyone is going to bite on the thread posted in the disease forum. They will not take the bait, did you see what happened there :)


reworded differently you can coax bites potentially, but probably not as-is as its about to fall off the page. someone here ought to bump it.

it looks like a hot button challenge as written and those guys are used to reviewing the ten other ways people advise others to reef...in that forum we're nearly always going to fall back on qt and fallow. Im sure if we can get it going most wont agree with my 80% loss rate advice, they'll rate the risk incidence much lower.

if I'm helping someone with a cycle, I still say that 8/10 folks will be chatting back before next summer about fish losses and I've found that directly placing the onus on them to study best disease practices, not easiest effort disease practices, is the only new move I can make to stem the losses. just watching new fish loss posts unfold daily in the general, new and disease forum also tells me there's a massive wave coming that we're not addressing as a hobby but have a clear marked responsibility to address.

Before anyone goes assumptive on my cycling mode/I'm a known nitrite nonmeasurer/ feel free to ask anyone in the disease forum if they started their tank in positive level nitrite. they'll tell you heck no, I made a compliant cycle you can't blame me there...so I don't buy for one second that waiting an extra three weeks for nitrite compliance makes a hoot of difference in anyone's fish retention game.

Ying Yang if you're ever telling a new reefer that its optional to prep for disease, that's not coming from personal experience its an information relay and the sources for the relay don't seem to come from the disease forum. The link I posted above does not give any reader the thought that non prep or non quarantine is the best bet. it doesnt give the skeptic five other almost as good options, what Jay recommends is the best practice for the public and for his zoo.

we have to sell peers on skipping preps, they tend to want to do what is right. By linking disease preps as the key starting concern in all cycles, I hope to make change in how we handle this terrible wasting that is a result of very cheap easy fish access for replacements, and inconsistent messages given by peers to go ahead and try one more time without much change in approach for round #2 fish stocking try.

this hobby is killing and wasting too many fish, we don't deserve to have access to them if it continues. If anyone's cycling mode lost a tenth of this many fish in week 2, you'd all end that cycling mode instantly as the meanest thing to ever cross the planet.

the quick cycles we can produce, the ready supply of fish, require something in our training of peers to change and change quickly.
 
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DrZoidburg

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Some of the diseases will die off over a period of time, and no I don't think every one is disease free. Unless under some super sterile conditions, or procedure. Even then nothings perfect. Even labs get contamination. For me I have done it both ways. A healthy stress free environment is key either way. Lost more fish over the years to other reasons than diseases/parasites etc... I would think disease is no where near 80%. The fish disease forum makes it look like its a huge common problem. In reality it is the shear number of members who have an occasional problem go south. What 8000+/- at any given time? Of these 8000 a day may be see 100 threads? I don't know if 100 threads exactly but that is about 1.2% in a freeze frame statistic. Flukes more likely, but even those wont really kill like people say. Don't get me wrong wild caught fish can be loaded with stuff. I would mostly treat these, or fish from a vendor that I didn't trust or know. All the good ones say they have a procedure right? It is my belief there are times when to qt, or treatments should be done. Even risk vs reward situation. There are many variables to this. Some of the tanks I have, and some I've worked on (not tank) where fish are a few years old I choose to qt new things if add any at all. Not a personal example but a hypothetical one - 20 year old tank where everything is fine, bad stuff has died off/balanced out, low stress, maybe immunity gained, and then add new fish with new strain of bad critter increasing stress. Here could run into a big problem.
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Dr Z

well said that makes sense. nice perspective.

what would you advise to the owner of a recently bottle bac cycled tank, including nitrite compliance :) we waited twelve straight weeks and the nitrite is finally api zero: how do they proceed to stock with fish, common pet store fish?
 

DrZoidburg

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Dr Z

well said that makes sense. nice perspective.

what would you advise to the owner of a recently bottle bac cycled tank, including nitrite compliance :) we waited twelve straight weeks and the nitrite is finally api zero: how do they proceed to stock with fish, common pet store fish?
I would think stock fish how you can, and not in large numbers at a time. Are you going to start a fish tank?! Like some people 1: can't afford qt setup. 2: they don't have space. 3: other reasons. A lot of people who do it that way don't have huge problems. Not saying at all stuff could happen, or not. Study up a bit, get to know your distributor, get to know their methods, study their fish etc.. Alternatively qt properly with healthy fish if you can. It is a choice.
 

HuduVudu

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get a working reef without 3 year's wait.
The problem with skill is that if all you see is that you think that it is common. Look at musicians so many think that it is easy be they see the plethora of musicians and think well so many are successfull then it must be easy. Until of course they try for themselves.

Trading (stocks etc ... ) is the same. Speaking a forieng language. I see it all of these and more. No it isn't easy what makes is SEEM easy is that you doing it all of the time, and they only way you are going to do that is because you like to do it for no other reason than you like to do it. If you doing it to impress someone else either conciously or subconciously you are going to fail. I have found this out the hard way.
It doesnt matter if someone here really doesn't have to quarantine, do we really expect newbs to be as good as someone who's already versed in no quarantine approaches?
Every single person that has had a tank started out a newb. Let me re-iterate that EVERY SINGLE ONE. Why did they succeed? What made them so special? Things that all newbs should be desperately trying to find the answer to.

I've always asked my critics to state what they think is best for new tankers, match the advice to the average skill level
Maybe your critics have done exactly that, but you are unable because of your experience (or lack thereof) to grasp. There are some seriously weird things in this hobby. Things that seem crazy and counter-intuitive. And I am VERY serious on this point. If you listen to the long timers they say things that are out there. They may even be specifically wrong about the reasons but the answers they provide though technically wrong may be functionally right.

I take great umbridge with people using Science(TM) to bludgeon other people. Experience trumps science every single time whether we like that idea or not. In fact most great science comes from crazy ideas not rooted in science.

Then, the ratio will be 90% NO quarantine its bad for fish, 10% qt. the skews flop based on a thread title and where its positioned,
That is why you have to take advice with a grain of salt. It is much better for you to try and fail on your own than to take advice that you won't or can't qualify. Fail faster.

People are in a hurry and they want quick solutions. They have reasons for the aquariums that they own that are not of themselves. These people do not want to do the hard work to do the real learning. As I have stated before every single human endevour is like this. Every single one.

Anytime I wrote anything about fish disease it wasn't because I own fish, it was because I can read patterns and the strongest retention comes from Jay's advice.
You are wasting your time. Stop "helping" people and go get a tank and set it up and keep fish, or coral or whatever. There is a saying "You can't give what you don't have".

it does not come from old tank owners telling newbs to skip fish preps, or from telling them to wait longer for tank maturity. they're not going to wait.
If they don't wait then they fail.

You can't buy your way out of it. You can't think your way out of it. You can't research your way out of it. You can't science your way out of it. You have to do it.

There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.

The man on the top of the mountain didn't just fall there.

I have made these points before I will make them again because you can't run from the truth, no matter how fast you think you are.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Hudu you're on block because I wasn't expecting quality input, based on practice, I wasn't expecting you to link any form of thread where you advise the public and hang around to inspect outcomes, I was expecting only for you to continue cycle battles that didn't work out well for you in 2019.
That was a disappointing unblock, you provide literally no basis for your critique. you're a fish tank owner, thats it. I dont watch you test any theories or patterns live time with anyone, I specifically don't see you doing accountability work on any subject. cyclers aren't messaging you fifteen times a day for direction, you pop solely into other peoples threads to provide critique. I am not seeing in your recent post history any discoveries made, any trends reflected on, and especially any repeat cycle assistance for new hires.

if you have links I can read to gain a different perspective, link them.


Dr. Z, what you wrote seemed cogent, directly matched to my question, and not a rehashing of the last eighteen months cycle disagreement in some sort of jaded get-back run. Hudu could stand to revise, but his end goal isn't discourse its never letting the past go.


Dr. Zoidberg when you simply responded with the specifics I wanted to relay to others, it was easy to pick up and seemed very logical and it wasn't a furtherance of any past issue. Simply thank you for adding to the thread.
 
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ying yang

ying yang

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Hi brandon.
Yeah I seen in other post last time I checked was 0 replys .as I said after I told you I started a thread and copy and pasted it sane as here so word for word same ,I just knew interest there be low as so many had replied here so maybe some didn't even know it was in a different forum so didn't get no new lookers or whatever reason idk .
My opinion on zoos and public tanks which could be 20k- 100k gallons,they have vets working there and more than likely permanent staff would be trained in biology or something around animal care I would of guessed and I only started keeping saltwater begginning this year but had freshwater several years but I remember first year keeping freshwater fish I had alot of deaths and was usually after a water change and baffled me for long time but found out the hard way you shouldn't wash filter sponges under the taps and made lots of very noob mistakes ,so if at same time I was doing a full medicated qt taking several weeks with a few different medications then that would been very daunting and I'm sure because I didn't even find out about should squeeze out sponges in dirty tank water then would made lots mistakes with dosages on medications for sure .
And yeah that would been my fault for not researching fully if did make mistakes but all I know is due to ill health I had my saltwater tank sitting empty for 5 years as physically unable to start tank ,but benifit of this was had 5 years worth of research extra which has helped me in my tank and also father in laws 6 month old 200 litre tank both with no fish losses and my mrs cousins freshwater tank,so far so good at 2 months .

But also the price of these public fish tanks of 20k - 100k gallons be astronomical so would make no sense whatsoever to not qt as imagine trying to catch 1000 fish and put In tanks to add medications all at once or remove all coral and possibly rocks and add 1 truck load of copper if problem ever occurred so sorry imo can't compare them to a hobbiest tank .
Now don't get me wrong jay does fantastic job and humblefish used to do here and anyone else who gives advice to anyone as helping someone is great and I often tag jay when someone asks for help as no way would I offer someone advice on dosing meds when I never done it myself and someone more qualified can help better and when I write I waffle on something terribly as all can see in my first post in this thread lol ^_^
But imo this thread shows me that most dont have fish losses due to no qt,and my own experiences in my tanks and my father in laws and I'm very chatty guy and chat to other tank owners when go to lfs every 1- 2 weeks and most say not had dieseses or only had couple losses .

Now don't get me wrong if anyone reading this .this doesn't mean you don't need to qt,it means a diesese can enter your tank at anytime for any reason and some add a fish and kills all their fish in matter of days.
So do your research and make an informed decision on what you will do and always have a plan on how to set up your tank and what you will do if you encounter a problem as acting fast may solve your problem but also remember on some problems ,doing nothing or very little is best thing to do ( talking about stuff in general and not just dieseses )
And if dont qt your fish ,then find out what your fish need to be more comfortable as it your tank but their home so got to do what's right for them to help you enjoy your tank .
 

HuduVudu

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I wasn't expecting you to link any form of thread where you advise the public and hang around to inspect outcomes,
Why no one likes the advice that I provide. I guess I am just not popular enough, because it seems that popularity is the sole qualification for your understanding. Better block me again, because in your world I have nothing to say.
I was expecting only for you to continue cycle battles that didn't work out well for you in 2019.
This is the part that makes me take issue with so much that you have to say. I am on block so I doubt you will respond, but what is it that I did in 2019? I have only been on this board as my tag states Jun 2, 2020. Perhaps you know me IRL?

you provide literally no basis for your critique. you're a fish tank owner, thats it.
At least that I have that .. fish tank owner. I went through point by point. I stated what I disagreed with. Do I need to hire experts to assure that I am "right" according to you?

I dont watch you test any theories or patterns live time with anyone, I specifically don't see you doing accountability work on any subject.
You are on a fish board. You are answering questions. You don't own your own aquarium.

I am IRL. I interact with people there. I have owned my own store. I have worked in many many others. I have been doing this since 1983. But please let me know what I am doing because it would be good to know what that is.

cyclers aren't messaging you fifteen times a day for direction,
That does indeed make you popular.

you pop solely into other peoples threads to provide critique.
Actually you have done that to Ying Yang, you were less than kind to him.

When I provide critiques I usually provide solutions. Sometimes it take a bit to get to that but I do if others want answers provide answers. Needless to say I am not popular and usually not forceful enough so those that see those traits as being useful in fish keeping rarely listen to me.

am not seeing in your recent post history any discoveries made, any trends reflected on, and especially any repeat cycle assistance for new hires.
Maybe I don't post my discoveries here because of your response. Maybe I am working at a level that others have not yet reached. It seems funny to me that most of the things I have questions about I use PM to accomplish.

Being popular doesn't make you right it just makes you popular.

Best you put me back on block because nothing is to be gained from conversations with me.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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YY I think thats a very reasonable input and summary of the matter and anytime someone on the Internet posts a questionable percentage on a hot topic you should proof it. This is a fair and good post to drive discussion on prep matters and it certainly helps me keep forecasted percentages in perspective



I had to fudge just a little to earn the 56% lol that last tiebreaker was from a nine month tank. :)
 
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