IS IT TRUE THAT 80% OF PEOPLE WILL HAVE FISH LOSSES DUE TO DISEASE/PARASITES IN FIRST 8 MONTHS IF DONT QUARANTINE ?

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astiesi

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@astiesi lol I really did look it up you ordered the reef and shrimp cycled it then became a critic, my bad :)


truly nice setup though, solid under tank design the scape looks nice. How did you prep for disease?

Not really concerned with establishing credentials, this hobby for me didn't begin with my time on this forum. For me I enjoy the hobby, I enjoy learning and improving, and I'm ok with never being considered a pro. But to rule out personal experiences from a thread like this is pretty poor science.

As for disease prep, the first inhabitants are coming from a FOWLR tank that I also have so I'm not yet currently concerned with that. When I do add, I'll assess what I'll do then. Won't do a medicated QT but possibly observational.
 
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ying yang

ying yang

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YingYang I truly think you made this thread not out of sincere interest in science, or learning, but to get the direct outcome you got. My respect for your advice as a reefer is missing now, I think you set back the reefing ability of new hires you give no clear stance lukewarm recommends to. It is pretty much just what I did in my first year of reefing so there’s not total disdain.

astiesi

Im not concerned with proving anything to you, you are here solely from the crowd you aren’t really trying to contribute. Think what you want, I didn’t even try and read your thread history on the site I already know what it will look like. It’ll look like you buying a tank from a pet store and then being an instant pro.
Ha ha you went back and edited and added in last paragraph and part of first paragraph.
Seems like you read my part of Me saying I'm a new reefer and say to people I am when giving advice .
To me it looks like you went to edit it so then I answered it ,seems very strange you read me say about me not being experienced then go back to edit a previous post before I said it saying ,no point reading my history as you think that I think I'm a pro reefer.
Which couldn't be farther than the truth as I'm only 9 months into my first reef tank.
Anyway what's been said a few times this thread going back and forth about quarantine or not quarantine when thread started to see how many people lost fish if dont qt,
So last few pages is unneeded ,some useful information in last few pages but arguing about it is senseless ,all I wanted is people's experience if lost fish and maybe a little about how you do it if qt or not qt.but it is what it is ^_^
 
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Dcal

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"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values. People display this bias when they select information that supports their views, ignoring contrary information, or when they interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing attitudes."

well we keep getting new examples to add to the definiton
 

MnFish1

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@brandon429 says: "when I click on the disease forum, none of the pros posting here are doing any help work there, with all these self testimonies"

Actually, my interpretation of the 'Disease forum' - is that people are recommended not to give multiple answers to someone in an 'emergency (or potential) situation. I, however post there fairly often - and I ask questions so that when the 'expert' who my understanding is tasked with managing that forum - has more information on which to give an opinion.

I do not see you posting on the disease forum?
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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I watch patterns off the disease forum and combine them with patterns from cycling and inbox reports, general work flow.
I watch % risks change over time in the hobby and try to relay them in an honest attempt to lessen disease loss and build the hobby, lower wasting vs increase it

I don’t have to type there because I’m not sitting here trying to invalidate work done there by posting pics of my home reef which didn’t need their methods in the disease forum, don’t conflate me with this crew.

this crew except for roughly two persons gives kickback with mixed motivation, unclear stances even when I ask plainly for %’s a newb is likely to face if they totally skip preps. That’s the game, folks here get to keep up prior cycling beefs from two years ago, but as time goes by I don’t see them ever really setting clear stances on a given subject and then measuring and logging the patterns especially on disease emergence.


When I tell someone the exact date they can begin a reef, and then we can message them today to see how that worked, I consider that over the course of hundreds of events to be a fair method to gain and relay patterns to you all.

so when this crew disagrees with my honest % relay, I’ll ask to see where your new info comes from and it always comes like this: a pic of my home tank and that they’ve been reefing three decades, it’s never a simple link of work they do, not ever. I then think their motivation isn’t to forward the hobby, or meet with change in procedure the new trends we see in the new tank forum and the disease forum, their motivation is to ascribe their own tanks outcome to everyone, in every home, and dig in heels when challenged.


Being a non fish owner I have less of an agenda to promote a given method especially if I were to use, and teach others the methods that aren’t from the disease forum. my sole motivation is to improve outcomes for others reefs, thats it. I’m not selling anything, not getting paid by anyone, I’m in it solely for remote work science practice and prediction honing in what marine aquariums do.

this crew has nine better ways than Jay, so I ask to see their cure work, and never get anything but a self report about their reef. Jay is so busy logging what he can do for others, I don’t know a single detail about his home reef.


YY

I changed my mind on your motives within two pages because you overall summary lacked maturity in practice and you didn’t seem the learn much from the recent threads on disease, if your working new summary reflected some change and growth and learning then I wouldn’t think you just wanted a nice fun flame run.



and it seems you’ll still pop into brand new cycling threads and give them disease prep advice that will enter doubt into the most professionally reviewed methods on the site, and the other half of your light offer will imply skipping preps is merely a choice. It’s very very very very hard to discern your position when we read your advice to new tankers, I still do not know your position on fish disease preps for new hires as it’ll be buried in eighteen paragraphs and I’ve got to milk it out somehow lol.
 
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Jeffcb

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Hi all,hope all is well.

Just realised this is extremely long post so if want to skimm over it and just say if qt or not and have you lost fish in first 8 months or not to diesese/parasites feel free

I'm seeing over and over that if dont quarantine fishes and when buy cuc/inverts or add anything wet to tank then we will have fish losses from diesese/parasites before the 8 month point in 80% of cases,which seems extremely high.
Now this thread isnt to call anyone a liar who says this,it's just my curiousity and to get a rough gauge of the problem if it exists

As I'm having a very hard time thinking this to be the case as I've read countless threads on whether r2r members qt or not and majority do not qt at all so if 80% of people that don't qt have fish losses then that's absurd amount of fish dying,or is is it the case as I read often said that there's so many people posting about their fish died or dying from a fish diesese/ parasite and need help,that people are in the diesese forum because they got a problem and don't make a thread there saying " hey my fish are alive and well "

So......can copy and paste this next bit out if applies to you to make easier or add onto it or delete or answer how you may.just add time in if needed etc

I do an observational qt on all newly bought fish for ..... length of time .and also to get fish eating properley away from other fish.

I do a medicated qt on all newly bought fish and I use the following medications and follow jay hemdal or humblefish recomendations on dosage/ duration.

I only do medicated qt if fish shows sign of ill health .

I dont qt and just temp/ drip aclimitise my fish then add straight to display tank or some I read add to sump.

Then if you may say how many fish you lost in first 8 months of setting the tank up either lost whilst medicating from overdosing,equipment failure,bullying,diesese still showed up on fish even though did very extensive medicated qt,or if no qt and fish died of diesese/ parasites ( this last one is what I'm wanting to really find out) aw and roughly how long did it take for fish to die please.

Feel free to add anything you feel relevant as I've read many threads where people state there fish are immune to dieseses in their tank and they want to add parasites occasionally to refresh the fishes immunity,and they feed fresh food,live food and no dry food or very little etc .( only works in a very mature reef they say)
And I know there many contributory factors why a fish could die as could die ( diesese,parasites,wrong food,bullying,tank size,overstocked,or many other factors .

So is it 80% of people that make threads in r2r diesese forum lose fishes to diesese in the first 8 months of tank.
Or is it 80% of all reefers who don't qt at all lose fishes to diesese/parasites in first 8 months ?

I've read that either 100k or 300k of Americans in u.s have saltwater tanks by a r2r member ( how true this is or not idk but if even 100k and 80% of people just lose 2 fish to diesese/parasites in first 8 months then that's 160k fishes lost just in u.s alone or is it 80% of the posters that say there fish are diesesed lose fish in first 8 months that ACTUALLY start a thread then % of fish lost going be much lower.


I will start it off by saying new to saltwater at 9 months and 1 of first fish I bought had possible brookenla diesese and took straight back to lfs and got another 2 clowns from same tank and did observational qt for 30 days in same tank that I put first 2 clowns in and didn't change water or nothing and the rest of my fish I put straight in display tank and lost 0 fish so far ( lfs did tell me that the 2 clowns I took back,1 died few days later,it looked good when I bought it and dont know if missed the signs on that one clown or stress of it being in bag and/or bullying from other clown caused it to look so bad straight away as put in my qt tank idk)



Thanks very much and enjoy rest your day


The answer is NO. N O SPELLS NO. It is not true. These types of post are normally just looking for attention!! :D :D

Good job on this one.
 

brandon429

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my stance on disease to new tankers:

(Not on any fence hard to discern, a clear stance clear recommend)


if you aren’t using what they use in the disease forum to prep your tank, and your soon to be goal is several mixed species of fish from the pet store, that’s an unacceptable waste of animals as you’re 8/10 likely to be replacing some or all by month eight due to disease we already expect nowadays, and can head off many times with good preps. you’ve just joined a hobby that now requires exceptional preps to keep these fish alive long term in captivity, it’s no longer buy and plop.


don’t think there’s a choice for you that’s ethical and involves you skipping preps, mix and match from the disease forum stickies what you’re willing to try.

a caveat exists for nano owners who just want one or two common clownfish, without preps. Nano-reef.com has been doing that 20 years, links are logged, and I don’t think the disease emergence is all that bad. Mixed species including tangs? Don’t even think about it.
 
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brandon429

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Jeff

you add fish, tangs, without preps to a tank that didn’t get prepped, you merely put money into the hobby and replace fish as needed, it’s the lowest form of effort I can fathom. I make it a point to set every new aquarist I meet on an opposite path, its just money and no skill.
Your posts will be used as an example in neat ways, thanks for joining.
:)
 

brandon429

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Here’s your motivation for posting here:


“5 Tangs hopefully added all at once. Is 5 to many?
Is it best to add all 5 at the same time?
Kole Tang
Gem Tang
Red Sea Sailfin Tang
Purple Tang
Unicorn Tang”

A seasoned reefer types like that? You ask for permission from others to stock up a ten thousand dollar setup?

that shows deep thought and prep well before the ability to swipe a credit or debit card.

hit the laugh emoji when someone asks you for experience based reef input :)
 
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Jeffcb

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Jeff

you add fish, tangs, without preps to a tank that didn’t get prepped, you merely put money into the hobby and replace fish as needed, it’s the lowest form of effort I can fathom. I make it a point to set every new aquarist I meet on an opposite path, its just money and no skill.
Your posts will be used as an example in neat ways, thanks for joining.
:)
Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Wow, you sure do know a lot.

Do you have an Aquarium?
 

MnFish1

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I watch patterns off the disease forum and combine them with patterns from cycling and inbox reports, general work flow.
I watch % risks change over time in the hobby and try to relay them in an honest attempt to lessen disease loss and build the hobby, lower wasting vs increase it

I don’t have to type there because I’m not sitting here trying to invalidate work done there by posting pics of my home reef who didn’t need their methods in the disease forum, don’t conflate me with this crew.

this crew except for roughly two persons gives kickback with mixed motivation, unclear stances even when I ask plainly for %’s a newb is likely to face if they totally skip preps. That’s the game, folks here get to keep up prior cycling beefs from two years ago, but as time goes by I don’t see them ever really setting clear stances on a given subject and then measuring and logging the patterns especially on disease emergence.


When I tell someone the exact date they can begin a reef, and then we can message them today to see how that worked, I consider that over the course of hundreds of events to be a fair method to gain and relay patterns to you all.

so when this crew disagrees with my honest % relay, I’ll ask to see where your new info comes from and it always comes like this: a pic of my home tank and that they’ve been reefing three decades, it’s never a simple link of work they do, not ever. I then think their motivation isn’t to forward the hobby, or meet with change in procedure the new trends we see in the new tank forum and the disease forum, their motivation is to ascribe their own tanks outcome to everyone, in every home, and dig in heels when challenged.


Being a non fish owner I have less of an agenda to promote a given method especially if I were to use, and teach others the methods that aren’t from the disease forum. my sole motivation is to improve outcomes for others reefs, thats it. I’m not selling anything, not getting paid by anyone, I’m in it solely for remote work science practice and prediction honing in what marine aquariums do.

this crew has nine better ways than Jay, so I ask to see their cure work, and never get anything but a self report about their reef. Jay is so busy logging what he can do for others, I don’t know a single detail about his home reef.


YY

I changed my mind on your motives within two pages because you overall summary lacked maturity in practice and you didn’t seem the learn much from the recent threads on disease, if your working new summary reflected some change and growth and learning then I wouldn’t think you just wanted a nice fun flame run.



and it seems you’ll still pop into brand new cycling threads and give them disease prep advice that will enter doubt into the most professionally reviewed methods on the site, and the other half of your light offer will imply skipping preps is merely a choice. It’s very very very very hard to discern your position when we read your advice to new tankers, I still do not know your position on fish disease preps for new hires as it’ll be buried in eighteen paragraphs and I’ve got to milk it out somehow lol.
I do not think 8/10 fish owners that do not "follow the recommendations in the disease forum" will lose fish in the first place - let alone putting a time period of 8 months on it. These are numbers pulled out of thin air.

I think the problem is not QT or no QT - its stocking density and buying healthy fish.
 

brandon429

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if thats your opinion at least it’s easy to discern from your writing.
Stocking density and timing is a big issue, it’s rushed a lot, agreed in that aspect.

your disagreement comes largely from the air since you don’t have a pattern I can find for cycling tanks and then gaining months and years long feedback. The tamped down version of our last two years disagreement is still much improved.

so it stands clear that the option exists to simply hold course in what we instruct new tankers, that any form of disease prep is optional. I disagree in that a large trend of loss well above norms and percentages we are used to is coming and I want to be ahead of the curve and will continue to implement training changes I see as required.

I continue to expect the staunchest or laugh- based disagreements from all cash reefers who literally set up tanks opposite of the way I would ever advise or respect. Select find all threads, you can tell a lot with that. Any disease tangs Jeff loses will just be instantly replaced. Zero effort required, swipes a card faster than the Kid could draw.


I try to influence new reefers that practice is despicable even if it comprises 90% of all buyers in the hobby, ps I got 90% off my estimates from this forum lol— in other forums it’d be 5-10% :)
 
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Jeffcb

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I do not think 8/10 fish owners that do not "follow the recommendations in the disease forum" will lose fish in the first place - let alone putting a time period of 8 months on it. These are numbers pulled out of thin air.

I think the problem is not QT or no QT - its stocking density and buying healthy fish.


Exactly. I have been in the hobby on and off for 45 plus years. Anyone that tells you they have not lost a fish is lying except for maybe @paul :cool:

Buying a healthy fish is the key. I does take a while and some experience learning how to buy a healthy fish. But with time and experience it happens.

On my newest tank I made the mistake of adding some wrasses before I got my tops. Lack of "TANK PREP" killed them, along with the cat that got them on the floor. She said they were delicious. I thought I could make it a few weeks with out tops because the LFS I got them from didn't have tops. Yep those wrasse deaths were defiantly "TANK PREP" failure! And that Orange back was expensive. Dang she was beautiful. But I learned.

Why do you need a QT if you have a good LFS?

A little luck is good as well!!:D
 

Jeffcb

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Here’s your motivation for posting here:


“5 Tangs hopefully added all at once. Is 5 to many?
Is it best to add all 5 at the same time?
Kole Tang
Gem Tang
Red Sea Sailfin Tang
Purple Tang
Unicorn Tang”

A seasoned reefer types like that? You ask for permission from others to stock up a ten thousand dollar setup?

that shows deep thought and prep well before the ability to swipe a credit or debit card.

hit the laugh emoji when someone asks you for experience based reef input :)


14 Thousand. Its a fish tank not a reef tank. I paid cash. :cool:
 
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Big Smelly fish

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I do not think 8/10 fish owners that do not "follow the recommendations in the disease forum" will lose fish in the first place - let alone putting a time period of 8 months on it. These are numbers pulled out of thin air.

I think the problem is not QT or no QT - its stocking density and buying healthy fish.
I agree 100% , I think a bigger problem today in the hobby when new people start they don’t have a clue of the nitrogen cycle, new people used to read and learn the whole process of what taking place during the initial cycle. Nowadays too many want instant gratification and are impatient. That’s why bottle bac and instant cycle is so popular. Then you add in people not researching the livestock before they know the requirements.
I been keeping marine fish since 1972, never had a tank wipeout and haven’t lost many fish from disease. I have lost some and it’s no fun.
I still cycled all tanks the same today as I did in 72. Only different is I don’t use fish now during the cycle and I ghost feed.
 

Big Smelly fish

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Exactly. I have been in the hobby on and off for 45 plus years. Anyone that tells you they have not lost a fish is lying except for maybe @paul :cool:

Buying a healthy fish is the key. I does take a while and some experience learning how to buy a healthy fish. But with time and experience it happens.

On my newest tank I made the mistake of adding some wrasses before I got my tops. Lack of "TANK PREP" killed them, along with the cat that got them on the floor. She said they were delicious. I thought I could make it a few weeks with out tops because the LFS I got them from didn't have tops. Yep those wrasse deaths were defiantly "TANK PREP" failure! And that Orange back was expensive. Dang she was beautiful. But I learned.

Why do you need a QT if you have a good LFS?

A little luck is good as well!!:D
We have all lost fish, and I agree if you are keeping marine fish it’s going to happen.
 

MnFish1

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By the way - What I sometimes wonder is how/why people are constantly buying new corals - are they losing that many?

My guess is that coral mortality is far higher than fish mortality. But- one problem with even making that claim (which is the same problem IMHO here about fish) - is that, for example - if a piece of coral has a major change in parameters between the new and the old tank - and then get sRTN - which continues (and thought to be a disease) - is that a death from 'disease' or 'stress'?
 
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