Is this velvet? Something else?

[MnFish1]

That makes sense. I wasn’t sure if I was lingering onto some dated information.

And any thoughts on whether it’s possible to fully eradicate ich from our systems? Or any articles you can point me to that speaks to this?

You can - if you leave the tank fallow (fishless) for 60-76 days (I prefer longer. Others do 45 days at a higher temperature. However, it's very easy to bring back in. I am not sure the fish had brooklynella and ich - which to me would be a fairly deadly - quick - combination. A fallow period, though, will eliminate this as well. Remember - all of your fish that were exposed to the tang should be treated if thats the way you are going to go (with copper)

 

[Pau Hana Reefer]

You can - if you leave the tank fallow (fishless) for 60-76 days (I prefer longer. Others do 45 days at a higher temperature. However, it's very easy to bring back in. I am not sure the fish had brooklynella and ich - which to me would be a fairly deadly - quick - combination. A fallow period, though, will eliminate this as well. Remember - all of your fish that were exposed to the tang should be treated if thats the way you are going to go (with copper)

My dilemma now is I don’t know where the diseases originated.
- The tang and wrasse came from a vendor who is supposed to have a pretty diligent quarantine process.
- My 3 fish in my main tank have all been there since 2019-2020. There are perfectly healthy
- only thing added to main tank in last 2 months were two CUC orders. Nothing else added to the tank since 2021/2022.
- observation tank was as seeded with main tank water and sponge filter. Only other water that went in there was vendor water and Reef Nutrition tiger pods.
- With my main tank, my new CUC has been stirring up the sand bed quite a bit. Could the virus have been dormant in the sand bed all these years?

If I want to ensure the disease is not in my main tank, I have the following considerations:
- I’ll have to find some way to house my full sized one spot to face for the treatment/fallow period.
- Would the transfers and copper treatment be too much stress for a 6-7+ year old foxface and yellow coris wrasse?
- and with all the worse involved… would I just take this chance to start my main tank all over again instead and maybe even upgrade in size?

Yeah… many questions here and decisions on how to handle this before I blindly go and try buying more fish.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

That makes sense. I wasn’t sure if I was lingering onto some dated information.

And any thoughts on whether it’s possible to fully eradicate ich from our systems? Or any articles you can point me to that speaks to this?

There's a lot of different opinions as to if marine ich can be eliminated from a system that has had it, or if it can just be controlled. The first step of course is to run a full fallow period - no fish in the tank for 60 days. The range is 45 to 76 days, but 60 seems to work fine. I have had major public aquarium systems that have had ich, but then were cleared of any apparent infection, and many smaller tanks can do so as well. In my opinion, if there is no ich seen for 6+ months, the infection is likely gone. Very many "return" cases of ich is actually due to new fish being added to the system that were not quarantine properly and brought a new infection in with them.

My latest venture is to have systems tested for eDNA of ich (and other parasites) in "clean systems" to see if they truly are that. I'm using Aquabiomic's services, but the results are still coming in. It's expensive to do this testing on a large number of tanks, so that is a limiting factor. I'll post the results once they are all in.

 

[MnFish1]

My dilemma now is I don’t know where the diseases originated.
- The tang and wrasse came from a vendor who is supposed to have a pretty diligent quarantine process.

I would not trust any vendor's quarantine - though they are well meaning

- My 3 fish in my main tank have all been there since 2019-2020. There are perfectly healthy

This could suggest that they have immunity - and the problem is in your tank rather than the vendor

- only thing added to main tank in last 2 months were two CUC orders. Nothing else added to the tank since 2021/2022.

Unlikely to be an issue - but possible.

- observation tank was as seeded with main tank water and sponge filter. Only other water that went in there was vendor water and Reef Nutrition tiger pods.

I would never add 'vendor water' to my tank - for any reason.

- With my main tank, my new CUC has been stirring up the sand bed quite a bit. Could the virus have been dormant in the sand bed all these years?

Yes - but doubt the CUC is the issue

If I want to ensure the disease is not in my main tank, I have the following considerations:
- I’ll have to find some way to house my full sized one spot to face for the treatment/fallow period.
- Would the transfers and copper treatment be too much stress for a 6-7+ year old foxface and yellow coris wrasse?
- and with all the worse involved… would I just take this chance to start my main tank all over again instead and maybe even upgrade in size?

you should transfer the fish to a large enough quarantine tank - or - if you can run hyposailinity in your display do that (I don't remember if you have coral - sorry). The copper should not be too much stress. I would not re-do your tank unless you want a bigger tank

Yeah… many questions here and decisions on how to handle this before I blindly go and try buying more fish.

this should be the last thing - I would not buy any more fish at all - until you have a solution - and you will not regret it.

 

[Pau Hana Reefer]

There's a lot of different opinions as to if marine ich can be eliminated from a system that has had it, or if it can just be controlled. The first step of course is to run a full fallow period - no fish in the tank for 60 days. The range is 45 to 76 days, but 60 seems to work fine. I have had major public aquarium systems that have had ich, but then were cleared of any apparent infection, and many smaller tanks can do so as well. In my opinion, if there is no ich seen for 6+ months, the infection is likely gone. Very many "return" cases of ich is actually due to new fish being added to the system that were not quarantine properly and brought a new infection in with them.

My latest venture is to have systems tested for eDNA of ich (and other parasites) in "clean systems" to see if they truly are that. I'm using Aquabiomic's services, but the results are still coming in. It's expensive to do this testing on a large number of tanks, so that is a limiting factor. I'll post the results once they are all in.

I’m looking forward to your findings. Also, what is the definition of clean systems? Does it include established tanks with past infections? And if so, have you also collected additional data to help with identifying patterns and other insights? For example, whether going fallow shows any patterns in the presence of eDNA? Or any associations between certain husbandry practices and presence/lack of presence?

 

[W31Olds]

Paul, you may want to check your ammonia test kit. I have a Red Sea test kit that reads total ammonia with toxic ammonia needing to be calculated based on Ph and an included chart. Your reading of 1 ppm might have been total ammonia and may not have been a contributing factor.

 

[Pau Hana Reefer]

I would not trust any vendor's quarantine - though they are well meaning


This could suggest that they have immunity - and the problem is in your tank rather than the vendor

Unlikely to be an issue - but possible.

I would never add 'vendor water' to my tank - for any reason.

Yes - but doubt the CUC is the issue

you should transfer the fish to a large enough quarantine tank - or - if you can run hyposailinity in your display do that (I don't remember if you have coral - sorry). The copper should not be too much stress. I would not re-do your tank unless you want a bigger tank

this should be the last thing - I would not buy any more fish at all - until you have a solution - and you will not regret it.

Thanks for taking the time to go through everything. I have my answer on how to proceed and that’s to go back to my old ways of doing my own quarantining. I consistently did it successfully in the past and have all the equipment to be able to QT at least 2-3 fish at a time. I was looking for a way to simplify my life a bit by buying pre-quarantined fish and it only made it more complicated.

Thankfully I put both fish in an observation tank. This experience highlights the importance of doing so.

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[Pau Hana Reefer]

Paul, you may want to check your ammonia test kit. I have a Red Sea test kit that reads total ammonia with toxic ammonia needing to be calculated based on Ph and an included chart. Your reading of 1 ppm might have been total ammonia and may not have been a contributing factor.

I ended up buying a Hanna ammonia tester for all my future QT/observation/hospital tank needs. I took this as a hard and expensive lesson… $60 on a Hanna tester will save me similar headaches down the road.

 

[Pau Hana Reefer]

Also mods, how do I remove the emergency tag? Or is this something a mod has to do?

Some good conversation here and no longer an emergency.

 

[MnFish1]

Also mods, how do I remove the emergency tag? Or is this something a mod has to do?

Some good conversation here and no longer an emergency.

its not an issue - dont worry about it. The emergency people have answered:)

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for taking the time to go through everything. I have my answer on how to proceed and that’s to go back to my old ways of doing my own quarantining. I consistently did it successfully in the past and have all the equipment to be able to QT at least 2-3 fish at a time. I was looking for a way to simplify my life a bit by buying pre-quarantined fish and it only made it more complicated.

Thankfully I put both fish in an observation tank. This experience highlights the importance of doing so.

Thanks again for all your help.

Actually - depending on the company you used - which you do not want to disclose - which is fine - it is very hard to determine whether the fish coming from such a company have been adequately quarantined. - and as most sites say - its entirely possible that their qt could have failed - or the fish already had something ,etc etc.

EDIT - I think many people here recommend quarantining - when fish arrive.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I’m looking forward to your findings. Also, what is the definition of clean systems? Does it include established tanks with past infections? And if so, have you also collected additional data to help with identifying patterns and other insights? For example, whether going fallow shows any patterns in the presence of eDNA? Or any associations between certain husbandry practices and presence/lack of presence?

A “clean system” is one that has not had an active parasitic infection in a given period of time. The time frame can vary between people and their expectations. I’d say any tank that has not had a parasitic outbreak in a year isn’t going to have one unless new fish are added.

I’m not sure how long eDNA persists after the organism has been eradicated. 4 months maybe?

 

[Pau Hana Reefer]

Actually - depending on the company you used - which you do not want to disclose - which is fine - it is very hard to determine whether the fish coming from such a company have been adequately quarantined. - and as most sites say - its entirely possible that their qt could have failed - or the fish already had something ,etc etc.

EDIT - I think many people here recommend quarantining - when fish arrive.

I was looking for suggested practices on how to handle pre quarantined fish (perhaps an idea for a new sticky or add to the existing sticky on how to quarantine). I went with one school of thought and, well, as the Grail Knight from Indiana Jones says… “you chose poorly.” And to make sure I’m on the same page… do you mean medicated quaratine?

Kind of wish I learned this lesson with a fish that was easier on my wallet. Would have driven across the same point. :rolleyes:

 

[MnFish1]

I was looking for suggested practices on how to handle pre quarantined fish (perhaps an idea for a new sticky or add to the existing sticky on how to quarantine). I went with one school of thought and, well, as the Grail Knight from Indiana Jones says… “you chose poorly.” And to make sure I’m on the same page… do you mean medicated quaratine?

Kind of wish I learned this lesson with a fish that was easier on my wallet. Would have driven across the same point. :rolleyes:

Actually - unfortunately - there is no clear answer. However I'm not sure I am supposed to be recommending vendors here - but - there is one company that I would use - and I think if you read some of the threads you would know that they have excellent customer service, great fish, great communication and are helpful. All of that said - many people still re-quarantine - or at least observe fish for some time before adding to the tank