It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Paul B]

TO suggest that you know how to ensure immunity (using only nutrition) is my problem with your argument.

You have to hear the entire thing. Nutrition is but one fact and it is important but nutrition alone will not make anything immune. That is where most people fail when they are trying to get their fish in great health and immune. Immunity is inherent in all fish in the sea, if it were not they would succumb to diseases every time they ate because their food is loaded with parasites and infectious agents. All we have to do is to help the fish keep that immunity. Quarantining does the exact opposite. It eliminates parasites and disease causing organisms that fish have naturally lived with their entire life and was given to them from their Mother.
This gap of the fish from meeting disease organisms completely eliminates the fish from staying immune and it becomes weak as it's immune system, which is a big part of it's physiology is gone.

Then, if the fish lives through quarantine and is fed non living food and no living bacteria and is exposed to no parasites, it's fate is sealed and it must try to live out it's life in a bubble because anything it encounters will kill it.

I could have quoted your entire post but I didn't think there was a need. I kind of like you anyway.

There is no doubt that excellent food and conditioning helps fish from developing disease.

This is wrong. Excellent food and conditioning does not keep a fish from developing disease. Immunity keeps a fish healthy and only being exposed to those things will get a fish immune.
Of course the fish first has to be in great condition and that condition is breeding condition. Only healthy fish can spawn as spawning, growth and immunity are the three things a healthy fish does.
All healthy fish spawn and they do it every few days or weeks. Female fish constantly fill with eggs, but only if they are in the best shape. Part of that great shape is immunity.

How many people on here have spawning fish that were quarantined? Not counting damsels because you need a School bus to run them over twice to kill them and they will live and spawn in damp oatmeal. I mean real fish.
How many quarantined fish die of old age without ever getting sick? Old age for most of the fish we keep is 15 or 20 years. I have some 26 year olds but they are clownfish so I don't count them for the reasons I mentioned.
If our fish die from anything else besides jumping out, being bullied or starving and we failed. They should all die of old age. Mine do and I am not that smart. Good looking maybe, but not smart.

By the way. I hope no one here feels that I am arguing with anyone. I don't argue, i am to old and to set in my ways for that. I am an ancient warrior but I don't do that any more. We are just discussing and I realize that there are many ways to do this. Not as good as mine.........No,,just kidding
I just have been doing it since they invented dirt so I figure I may have accidentally learned something along the way. But then again, maybe I am lucky.

 

[MnFish1]

I probably don't qualify as a geezer unless you ask my wife. I haven't acquired the wisdom that Paul, Atoll, and Lasse have. I continue to learn an amazing amount from them.

But I still QT everything!

And I do that for scientific reasons. I have read the studies that show how fish immunity benefits from low level exposure to parasites. I have read the studies showing how bacteria, fish oils and other essential fatty acids are critical to fish immune health. I have also read the studies that show how a fish can temporarily lose its acquired immunity in a matter of hours if exposed to enough stress. I have read the studies that show they can permanently lose their acquired immunity in a week of bad stress.

Until I am convinced I can maintain the tank parameters my fish require to maintain their immunity I feel it is in mine and their best interest to protect them from those parasites. I encourage everyone new to the hobby to do the same.

I admire the methods used by those like Paul and Atoll and yourself that allow the fish to thrive without using QT.

Completely agree...

 

[MnFish1]

You have to hear the entire thing. Nutrition is but one fact and it is important but nutrition alone will not make anything immune. That is where most people fail when they are trying to get their fish in great health and immune. Immunity is inherent in all fish in the sea, if it were not they would succumb to diseases every time they ate because their food is loaded with parasites and infectious agents. All we have to do is to help the fish keep that immunity. Quarantining does the exact opposite. It eliminates parasites and disease causing organisms that fish have naturally lived with their entire life and was given to them from their Mother.
This gap of the fish from meeting disease organisms completely eliminates the fish from staying immune and it becomes weak as it's immune system, which is a big part of it's physiology is gone.

Then, if the fish lives through quarantine and is fed non living food and no living bacteria and is exposed to no parasites, it's fate is sealed and it must try to live out it's life in a bubble because anything it encounters will kill it.

I could have quoted your entire post but I didn't think there was a need. I kind of like you anyway.




This is wrong. Excellent food and conditioning does not keep a fish from developing disease. Immunity keeps a fish healthy and only being exposed to those things will get a fish immune.
Of course the fish first has to be in great condition and that condition is breeding condition. Only healthy fish can spawn as spawning, growth and immunity are the three things a healthy fish does.
All healthy fish spawn and they do it every few days or weeks. Female fish constantly fill with eggs, but only if they are in the best shape. Part of that great shape is immunity.

How many people on here have spawning fish that were quarantined? Not counting damsels because you need a School bus to run them over twice to kill them and they will live and spawn in damp oatmeal. I mean real fish.
How many quarantined fish die of old age without ever getting sick? Old age for most of the fish we keep is 15 or 20 years. I have some 26 year olds but they are clownfish so I don't count them for the reasons I mentioned.
If our fish die from anything else besides jumping out, being bullied or starving and we failed. They should all die of old age. Mine do and I am not that smart. Good looking maybe, but not smart.

By the way. I hope no one here feels that I am arguing with anyone. I don't argue, i am to old and to set in my ways for that. I am an ancient warrior but I don't do that any more. We are just discussing and I realize that there are many ways to do this. Not as good as mine.........No,,just kidding
I just have been doing it since they invented dirt so I figure I may have accidentally learned something along the way. But then again, maybe I am lucky.

Well fed - healthy fish will spawn.

How many people here have 2 of one kind of fish in a tank. Of those how many have a male and a compatible female (yes of course they can change). I do not believe that a quarantined fish 'cant/wont' spawn. There is no reason to think this would be the case. I asked you this a while back - but you didnt reply - do you think that the people that are breeding (commercially) fish in this hobby raise their fish in the same manner you raise yours? if not - then there must be another 'X factor'. I do not believe that people that are commercially breeding thousands of fish raise their fish in the presence of parasites. And I like you as well

 

[Paul B]

I wasnt talking about the 'plague' - and you have used the plague was really a virus before. So - lets assume it was a virus. What caused millions of 'healthy' presumably well fed people to die of of a virus. What caused millions of people to die in influenza epidemics in - well lets look to 1918. They were also mostly young and well fed.

I used Plague because I just took a 6 hour Plague course and I wanted to use my knowledge even if it had nothing to do with fish. But being I took that course I can answer your question. The people died from the virus because it came from China on the trade routes and the people had no immunity from it. There are 3 forms of Plague and one type killed 100% of the people it affected, the second type of Plague killed over 90% of the people but many people did not die from the third plague. No one knows why except that besides the virus, the Plague was also in many cases a bacteria carried by rats. The record keeping in those days sucked so we do not know exactly why some people lived or if they died from a virus or bacteria.

Getting back to fish. Malaria is a parasite and it is killed with Quinicrine Hydrocloride just like I use on ich. It is also killed by copper but not in humans that we want to keep alive. The Vietnamese people may have had chromic malaria and if they didn they still do because those mosquitoes didn't go anywhere. But I like to think they are immune. They looked mighty healthy to me.

Many of the Vietnamese people probably had 'chronic malaria' - resulting in morbidity to them. Though some likely 'survived'

AS far as I can tell, they all survived.

- and in fact, you dont know exactly 'why' you are successful - and are guessing...

Well at least we can both agree on that.

But I would rather listen to someone who is guessing while never having sick fish in 40 years than a scientist who knows facts and never had a fish tank.

I am really liking this discussion. I am going to have a nice big mug of Grand Marnier.

 

[Brew12]

I am really liking this discussion. I am going to have a nice big mug of Grand Marnier.

Just watch the empty bottle when you are done! If you let it get near your tank I've heard rumors it can cause spontaneous spawning in fish!

 

[Paul B]

How many people here have 2 of one kind of fish in a tank.

Everybody on here who has quarantined fish, not counting damsels are spawning? Raise your hand.
There are 10 million tanks I am sure someone has a pair of fish

. I do not believe that a quarantined fish 'cant/wont' spawn. There is no reason to think this would be the case. I asked you this a while back - but you didnt reply -

I don't remember, but my wife tells me things all the time that I don't respond to. I am sure quarantined fish can spawn. But if they do, it is very rare. Healthy, immune fish constantly spawn. Wait, I am going to turn around to look at my tank now. OK, my mandarins are spawning, my blues tripe pipes are spawning and my cardinals are spawning. My clowns do nothing else but as I said, they don't count. ;Watching
Well, they are not all spawning right now, but they are thinking about it.

 

[Paul B]

Just watch the empty bottle when you are done! If you let it get near your tank I've heard rumors it can cause spontaneous spawning in fish!

OMG, not only are they spawning, But they are spawning in a Grand Marnier Bottle!
And at their age.

 

[MnFish1]

I used Plague because I just took a 6 hour Plague course and I wanted to use my knowledge even if it had nothing to do with fish. But being I took that course I can answer your question. The people died from the virus because it came from China on the trade routes and the people had no immunity from it. There are 3 forms of Plague and one type killed 100% of the people it affected, the second type of Plague killed over 90% of the people but many people did not die from the third plague. No one knows why except that besides the virus, the Plague was also in many cases a bacteria carried by rats. The record keeping in those days sucked so we do not know exactly why some people lived or if they died from a virus or bacteria.

Getting back to fish. Malaria is a parasite and it is killed with Quinicrine Hydrocloride just like I use on ich. It is also killed by copper but not in humans that we want to keep alive. The Vietnamese people may have had chromic malaria and if they didn they still do because those mosquitoes didn't go anywhere. But I like to think they are immune. They looked mighty healthy to me.


AS far as I can tell, they all survived.



Well at least we can both agree on that.

But I would rather listen to someone who is guessing while never having sick fish in 40 years than a scientist who knows facts and never had a fish tank.

I am really liking this discussion. I am going to have a nice big mug of Grand Marnier.

Enjoy the Grand Marnier... Anecdote aside, one of the most deadly (if not the most deadly (i.e. causing the most mortality)) in the world is malaria. Maybe the people in Vietnam had a less virulent strain. It does, though illustrate the problem with using anecdote.

As to the Plague. The plague was assumed to be caused by a bacterium - there is since some discussion as to whether it was caused by another organism entirely (a virus like the flu). No matter where the virus came from, even healthy well fed people died from it.

Of course, people can develop immunity to a disease - that's why we get tetanus shots. But - if 10 people (well fed) get 'tetanus' (the infection) a certain percentage (about 10 percent) will die (with no antibiotic treatment) - If you gave 10 poorly fed/unhealthy people tetanus, the mortality would be higher. Those that survive will be immune. This is common sense. But - using this analogy, I am not sure that many people would say risk the infection - to make people immune (instead we developed a vaccine). For the same reason - commercial fish breeders/farmers are trying to develop a vaccine against CI.

Most importantly, you ignored (again) the main point that suggests you are (perhaps) incorrect. Commercial marine fish breeders (who have spawning fish every day) - do not use your methods, yet their fish breed and are the offspring are being sold. Only saying - breeding/spawning is not an indication of immunity/health on its own.

 

[Lasse]

For the moment the debate is like an old tennis match between Borg and McEnroe. There is some serve-ess here and there but mostly endless bouncing back and forth.

Let us structure the whole thing and first come to an agreement that there are different types of microorganisms – mainly bacteria, virus and parasites – that cause illness for us and for fish.

Let us also establish that fish lives in the most natural environment for bacteria – the environment that is a must for bacteria to develop and thrive. Hence – fish as an organism has develop a strategy to handle this. I can put forward a lot of strategies and differences between the human immune system and the system for fish – but in general - it’s not that the fish’s system is “less” developed compared with ours – it is optimized for the environment fish lives in – and our is optimized for ours.

During the last 40 years – I has been working with many different fishes and in different systems. My conclusion of this is that in nearly 99 % of the cases of bacterial caused illness in fish is a combination of stress and if there is a large monoculture of some bacteria. Monocultures of bacteria often arise if there is a bad husbandry and overfeeding. If the normal bacteria fauna of the fish will be knocked out it also create a good environment for monocultures of bacteria to be formed. There is also another factor – and that is – if a bacteria attack will come – the energy status of the fish. A wealthy and well feed fish have more energy resources to fight an attack compared with a weak, stressed and starving fish. A fish that can´t stand an attack will be a source for a bacterial monoculture and the amount of attacking bacteria to the other fishes will be a stress factor itself.

With the normal quarantine protocol that I have seen be used in the US – you just optimize all these factors that can cause bacteria attacks on fish. I can´t understand this. Its not logical. Especially this thinking of using preventive medication and even antibiotica. And this in a sterile environment, with a stressed fish that sometimes has been starving prior to transport. If you do not kill the fish in the quarantine – you have a large chance to kill the fish than you transfer it to the DT.

There is also a lot of thinking that – as an example – I only use anecdote evidence. I have heard the opposite - like – what a luck I use the strict quarantine protocol because the fish die of sickness – what had happened if I put the fish directly in the DT?

Today I have a protocol of my own. I have a fuge to my aquaria – I use this for the first weeks as a soft introducing of the new fish into my DT. Here – the new inhabitant -can slowly – without territorially stress – adapt itself to my aquaria and get the same smell as my old fishes. This has been the best strategy I have used so far.

There is also a very funny fact that three persons with a long history of holding fish in three different continents (yes I know its only two - but people in the UK seems to think that they are an own continent ) come to the same conclusion and way of handling the issue.

Let us first try to figure out the issue of bacterial cause disease and then proceed to look at diseases caused by parasites

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

For the same reason - commercial fish breeders/farmers are trying to develop a vaccine against CI.

Thats because they feed farmed fish dry pellets because it is to expensive to give them live food. If we had a fish vaccine we wouldn't be having this discussion. Thats why I use live foods with diseases already in them just like the sea.

For the same reason - commercial fish breeders/farmers are trying to develop a vaccine against CI.

Most importantly, you ignored (again) the main point that suggests you are (perhaps) incorrect. Commercial marine fish breeders (who have spawning fish every day) - do not use your methods, yet their fish breed and are the offspring are being sold. Only saying - breeding/spawning is not an indication of immunity/health on its own.

This one I really don't know so I won't speculate. But it is interesting so i will research it.
I know they have to use antibiotics because the fish are in such close quarters and their food is only pellets. There is a trout hatchery here so i will have to go there to ask them this. I also know their fish don't spawn but are "Milked" for eggs but that really is because the fish are cramped and can't naturally spawn.
The trout here are raised in outdoor ponds that have natural streams feeding it so I "assume" the fish are getting the natural bacteria and parasites from there, but again, I am assuming.
I also know that tuna and shrimp are raised in outdoor ponds or the ocean for the salt water fish. The ocean has all the parasites they need.

 

[Paul B]

OK, I quickly found out the information on farmed fish. Here -------> https://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-11561/9-things-everyone-should-know-about-farmed-fish.html

Here are a few highlights, but read the article while Oprah is on.

" Further, farmed fish are routinely dosed with antibiotics, which can cause antibiotic-resistant disease in humans."

" Tuna and salmon, for example, need to eat up to five pounds of fish for each pound of body weight. The result is that prey (fish like anchovies and herring) are being fished to the brink of extinction to feed the world’s fish farms."

"Farmed fish are packed as tightly as coins in a purse, with twenty-seven adult trout, for example, typically scrunched into a bathtub-sized space. These unnatural conditions give rise to diseases and parasites, which often migrate off the farm and infect wild fish populations."

I guess this is where they get their bacteria and parasites.

"You can’t have diseases and parasites infecting your economic units, so operators fight back by dumping concentrated antibiotics and other chemicals into the water. Such toxins damage local ecosystems in ways we’re just beginning to understand. One study found that a drug used to combat sea lice kills a variety of nontarget marine invertebrates, travels up to half a mile, and persists in the water for hours."

This is from another article about fish oil that I have been advocating for years:

"Fish oil is a major natural source of the healthy omega-3 fatty acids eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). These fatty acids are not made by the fish, but become concentrated in fish further up the food chain from the marine phytoplankton (microscopic marine algae and microbes) that do synthesize them."

"4. Where does fishmeal and fish oil come from?

About ¾ of the fishmeal and oil are produced from the harvest of small, open-ocean (pelagic) fish such as anchovies, herring, menhaden, capelin, anchovy, pilchard, sardines, and mackerel. These fish have short life cycles and are capable of rapid reproduction and stock replenishment. The other ¼ is generated from the scraps produced when fish are processed for human consumption."

In other words it is 100% from fish

That food is all fish. I have a can of "premium" fish pellets in my hand that we feed to our fish. It contains: Krill meal, fish meal, wheat flour, glycerin, brewers dried yeast, fish oil, soy, lecithin, red pepper powder, (no really) garlic powder, glucono-delta-lactone, hydrated sodium, calcium,aluminosillicate, rosemary extract, tocopherols, (preservative) astaxanthin, L-ascorbyl-2, polyphosphate, vitamin A acetate, choline, chloride, a-tocopheryl acetate, niacin, d-calcium, panthenate complex, folic acid, d-activated animal sterol, vitamin b 12, zinc protein, copper proteinate, magnesium and the list goes on.

Fish oil is the 7th ingredient but fish need a large part of their diet to be oil.

Not exactly what a fish gets in the sea and it has preservatives because the small amount of krill and fish meal goes bad.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Some of that article is very speculative. Particularly the level of the effect of fishing on sardines and anchovies. There is a some scientific consensus that it has been a part of why the populations have been in decline since the 1950’s(Pacific northwest) but there is an appreciable amount of uncertainty as to the role of climate change and other biotic condition variations.
And the bee venom rocking behavior immediately follows the point on antibiotic resistance. Bee venom has been shown in studies when administered to fish to reduce the amount of antibiotics required to treat diseases.(sorry beekeeper, of course bees cure everything lol). But if they are looking for ways to reduce antibiotic usage in the industry this is one of them.
Now not saying i disagree with its overall point of view just some of his sources.
Also tagging along want to see the progress of this

 

[Skynyrd Fish]

My tank has been running since 2000. I moved all my live rock and substrate, and water from my 50 gallon I had set up since 1991. Some of my rock is original as is a small area of gravel. I have never quarantined in a traditional medicated way. I currently don't feed live or frozen. I will be starting today. I have had ich, but never lost anything to it since 2006. I've had my current clown 12 years and my purple tang and royal gramma 8. I did lose a bunch of fish during the blackout of 2003, but in my opinion it was due to oxygen depletion.

I am going to start stocking this tank with corals and more fish. I am going to set up a 20 long quarantine with some live rock, sand, water and cheato all from my display. This is only to monitor and feed. I usually soak the frozen foods in vitamins, but will go get some fresh also. I will also be changing 1 gallon of water with display tank water every other day. This has worked for me in the past. I do have a ten gallon if I feel I can not get around a sick fish and they need to go in it with meds as a last resort. since 2006 I have not had a QT and all fish went right in. I would soak all foods in selcon or garlic (Miracle mud brand), I swear by that stuff. I feel it helped the fish fight disease and parasites.

I have not added anything beside snails, and macro algae in five years. The macro came from a huge, packed reef tank at a local store a year ago, so its safe to say that there had to be pathogens with it. The snails came from an LFS so safe to say that tank had some pathogens also.

So with all this being said my observation is, A stable established tank is able to handle Ich, Velvet and other pathogens differently than a younger tank. The stability and diversity of life and the diet provided by said tank can help a fishes immune system strengthen, as well as provide the fish a less-stress environment. I'll keep you guys posted on results.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

First of all thank you all for all this info and Big up to MR. Paul B he put me on with the black worms and fish oil.

Now for my question to the 3 fish whispers.

If you guys had to put a list together of the correct things that we can find local to feed that will help and boost the immune system what would that list look like ?

 

[atoll]

If its not 'luck' and its not 'skill' - you tell me - what is the source of your success. .

I give up

 

[atoll]

First of all thank you all for all this info and Big up to MR. Paul B he put me on with the black worms and fish oil.

Now for my question to the 3 fish whispers.

If you guys had to put a list together of the correct things that we can find local to feed that will help and boost the immune system what would that list look like ?

Well, first of all, we can't use mud from the ocean here as its far too cold here and I am not near the coast. I have yet to see any LFS here selling blackworms so they are ruled out.
I go to my local fresh fish market and buy live cockles I believe you call them clams and mussels. I also buy squid, shrimp, prawns scallops and whitebait all frozen but uncooked of course. I process these by chopping them up and putting each individually in turn into a blender. When read I put each into separate yoghurt pots mark with a pen as to what is in each then freeze them. When I come to feed I grate each out them all in another yoghurt put add a teaspoon or 2 of fish oil and a small amount of tank water then left to defrost. I also add some powdered corals foods and stir it all before feeding 4 times a day. I have culture brine shrimp from time to time and feed the nauplii live. The nauplii is full of live bacteria which is no problem and probably beneficial. I also culture Ulva intestinalis in my ATS which I also feed to my fish most of which eat it but not all. I broadcast feed this soup so all fish and corals get a bit of it.

This is what it looks like ready to feed.

 

[MnFish1]

I know they have to use antibiotics because the fish are in such close quarters and their food is only pellets. There is a trout hatchery here so i will have to go there to ask them this. I also know their fish don't spawn but are "Milked" for eggs but that really is because the fish are cramped and can't naturally spawn.
The trout here are raised in outdoor ponds that have natural streams feeding it so I "assume" the fish are getting the natural bacteria and parasites from there, but again, I am assuming.
I also know that tuna and shrimp are raised in outdoor ponds or the ocean for the salt water fish. The ocean has all the parasites they need.

I was talking about places where they are breeding/spawning angelfish, clowns, other fish for the aquarium trade. Granted - some of them are 'easier' than others - but - there is no magic biology of which Im aware that would suggest that feeding 'sterile food' - say 'frozen cod mixed with other foods' - that was irradiated to kill all bacteria - would be any different than feeding fresh-killed cod etc from the ocean

 

[Paul B]

I was talking about places where they are breeding/spawning angelfish, clowns, other fish for the aquarium trade. Granted - some of them are 'easier' than others - but - there is no magic biology of which Im aware that would suggest that feeding 'sterile food' - say 'frozen cod mixed with other foods' - that was irradiated to kill all bacteria - would be any different than feeding fresh-killed cod etc from the ocean

I hope you noticed I linked your entire thought.

I actually linked this before on this thread (I think)

Ref: Copyright © 2012 María Ángeles Esteban. This is an open access article distributed under the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited.
(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review ArticleAn Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.

By Me: To get the antibodies, fish have to first exposed to them and that resistance does not last a lifetime just like we have to get a tetanus shot every year.

And this:

Coincidently in this months "Popular Science" (August 2015) there is an article about this very topic. The author states that the most germ free envirnment today is on the International Space Station. Everything is sterilized including the air. All the surfaces are coated with bacteria limiting coatings, even the water is treated with iodine and biocidal nano silver so the only bacteria prsent are the ones coming from the astronauts themselves. (I wrote the next part) They can't open a window or send out for Pizza so there is no fresh influx of microbes to balance the ecosystem. Sounds like quarantining doesn't it? He also states that a loss of gut bacteria correlates with many diseases and could impede longer space travel. If we lose our gut bacteria, our immune system goes dormant.

AS for the difference of feeding sterile food compared to food with living bacteria in it I am still looking for those hands up. The people with the quarantined, spawning fish that have never been sick, not counting silly damsels and their fish are dying of old age while never being sick. I have had my hand up all day and I am getting tired. 10,000,000 reef tanks and no one has a pair of fish. That is hard to understand.

There was a saying years ago in chemistry classes. It was called Ex Juvantus or something similar as my Latin is a little rusty. But it means that sometimes when you can't find the answer to a problem, you forget about all the things you don't know and go with the one that has been working the longest. My tank is 46 years old and has not had a disease in 40 years. To me, unless I am a liar, and although sometimes I tell my wife I am losing weight but really I am not, I don't lie on fish boards. (except about my love life and my hair) I have been writing articles since we wrote them in books which were made out of paper which is the same material we used to make trees from.

Now, can you show me one tank older with older fish that have been quarantined. Just one. Even a goldfish tank! A Betta, grass shrimp, duck billed platypus, anything?
So then I can definitely prove the system I am using at least can work and work the way I say for over 40 years. I have not seen any old quarantined tanks with fish spawning and dying of old age.
As I said, the hobby here in the US is 46 years old. Where are all those tanks?

OK lets do this differently. Who has the oldest quarantined tank on here and how many times if ever have the fish been sick and what is the oldest fish? Are they spawning, not the damsels as they are Sissy fish and I think one is spawning in my sock drawer now. It is a simple question.

If in 3 1/2 years when my tank is fifty years old, will that prove my system can work or should I will it to someone, maybe Pee Wee Herman to see if it is considered immune in 100 years? How long should it go? I am curious.

 

[Paul B]

I was talking about places where they are breeding/spawning angelfish,

Where are they breeding angelfish for the trade and what are they feeding them? I am curious.

 

[Paul B]

Now for my question to the 3 fish whispers.

If you guys had to put a list together of the correct things that we can find local to feed that will help and boost the immune system what would that list look like ?

I can tell you what I do to get live bacteria in fish. Every day my fish get some live blackworms, white worms or clams that I buy live and freeze, I also hatch brine shrimp for the mandarins and pipefish.
In the summer I collect NSW along with mud that I dump in. I also collect amphipods. But the worms and clams are enough.
If you read my above post, the food they give to farmed fish is composed of baitfish and nothing else. I feed meaty foods with live bacteria and nothing else. Some of the food I use is LRS food which is meaty foods. But I don't rely 100% on commercial foods. I want to make sure the food has live bacteria in it. The whiteworms I use are in soil. I am not very careful to remove all the soil and it goes in with the worms.

I know MnFish! will say my experiences are anecdotal and they are. So show me anecdotal evidence that quarantined fish are as healthy and spawning.