It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[atoll]

Harrrr yes facts I know them well. So many facts of yesterday are no longer facts today having been overtaken by more facts and yes even scientific ones. Its fine say things like "its a scientific fact blah blah blah" However If you do something that contradicts facts and you do them many times and they work time and time again what price facts then?
Paul and I go back in this hobby before many on here were born, we have seen many of these facts (more like myths) come and go. I was always warned never to feed fresh foods from the ocean as my tank would contract some awful disease so for 10 years I followed their advice and for the last 26/27 years, I have been feeding fresh marine foods without a single disease outbreak of note. I like facts but IMO experience trumps them every time. Do what works for you as I and Paul do.

 

[Paul B]

Atoll. It's amazing that our tanks "never" have any diseases and we get all these excuses why. I hear all the time that I only keep fish that are resistant. Even though I have an old copperband and have had tangs for most of my life. (that died after 10 or 12 years) I am also pretty sure bangai cardinals, wrasses, blue stripe pipefish, clown gobies etc. get ich as the disease forums are all about that. My power has gone out so many times in the time my tank has been up that I had to get another generator, but before I had a generator I used my SCUBA tank for circulation, once for days and I still never had a disease outbreak. Then I get the luck thing. Yes I am very "lucky".
My friend in my LFS says I cheat because I use live food. Like "really". Thats cheating. He says most people lose their fish in a year or two so they can buy new ones. Again "like Really". So I will keep cheating.
I have said it before and I will say it again, if a fish dies before it's expected lifespan of a disease, we failed. No "icks" ands or butts.

 

[Lasse]

I´m also one of the "the elders" in this hobby and my thinking’s is completely in line with the way Paul B and atoll thinks. Once - I was farming freshwater fish in a effluent from a waste water plant – never have had as healthy fish as then.

There is two ways to fight harmful bacteria - Kill them or defeat them with your immune system. If you in general only try to kill an organism that reproduce itself every 10 minutes you will fail in the long run - it have plenty of chanshes to form resistans through normal mutation frequency. The only way to win the battle against harmful bacteria in the long run is a strong immunsystem - its valid for people and also valid for fish. Not saying that you should not kill them if they threatens life , but as a general plan - not

Medication because something can happens is for me more contra productive than helpful. Will create more problems than it solves. If not broken - do not fix it is valid even in this context.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[atoll]

Atoll. It's amazing that our tanks "never" have any diseases and we get all these excuses why. I hear all the time that I only keep fish that are resistant. Even though I have an old copperband and have had tangs for most of my life. (that died after 10 or 12 years) I am also pretty sure bangai cardinals, wrasses, blue stripe pipefish, clown gobies etc. get ich as the disease forums are all about that. My power has gone out so many times in the time my tank has been up that I had to get another generator, but before I had a generator I used my SCUBA tank for circulation, once for days and I still never had a disease outbreak. Then I get the luck thing. Yes I am very "lucky".
My friend in my LFS says I cheat because I use live food. Like "really". Thats cheating. He says most people lose their fish in a year or two so they can buy new ones. Again "like Really". So I will keep cheating.
I have said it before and I will say it again, if a fish dies before it's expected lifespan of a disease, we failed. No "icks" ands or butts.

Our fish are cheating disease and death then. Well so be it. I don't think our fish mind that one little bit. [emoji3]

 

[Paul B]

Isn't it a coincidence that us 3 Geezers have no problems with disease and we don't have to quarantine!

 

[atoll]

Isn't it a coincidence that us 3 Geezers have no problems with disease and we don't have to quarantine!

Na. it's a miracle Paul. We must be using holly water. [emoji3]

 

[Paul B]

Don't tell them the secret!!!

 

[atoll]

Don't tell them the secret!!!

Shhhhh mum's the word not that she would know anything about such anyway. [emoji57]

 

[MnFish1]

Isn't it a coincidence that us 3 Geezers have no problems with disease and we don't have to quarantine!

There is no doubt that excellent food and conditioning helps fish from developing disease. There is also the germ theory of disease. Depending on the virulence of an organism even the healthiest will succumb.
For example during most influenza outbreaks healthy people don’t die yet some years even these otherwise healthy people succumb. So in a sense you have been lucky and you are also very experienced skilled aquarium keepers.

What evidence is there that a cod for example taken out of the ocean and fed to aquarium inhabitants is any more or less bacteria containing than a cod that is frozen. What evidence is there that frozen brine shrimp is any less bacteria rich than live?

 

[atoll]

So in a sense you have been lucky and you are also very experienced skilled aquarium keepers.

46 years and 26 years (since I changed my ways) lucky? You really think skill and luck has anything to do with our success, honestly? ;Jawdrop

 

[Paul B]

Depending on the virulence of an organism even the healthiest will succumb.

Only if those "Healthiest" were not continuously exposed to that organism.
The people that did not die of the black death or plague have relatives today who are immune to Aids virus. And that was 500 years ago.
By the way, most plague victims died from a virus, not the plague bacteria from rats. Actually it didn't even start on rats, but hamsters in China, but what do I know?

The correct food is certainly needed, but if you feed only sterilized food, (like most, but not all commercially available food and all dry food) your fish will never be immune from anything, even plague. And "luck" has little to do with it. I can put any fish with any disease in my tank and nothing will happen.

People who quarantine will never believe that and never have. But they just don't know. Just like UG filters. They can't possibly work right? But mine has been running longer than any tank on here just like my fish have been immune longer than any fish on here. Isn't that special But if it's luck, I am very lucky. ;Smuggrin
People just don't want to believe the 3 oldest, most experienced people on here with immune fish. You can believe the rumors about keeping disease away from fish but before you do, visit the disease forum and read all about the problems people have and all the dying fish. They usually start out with something like "my fish has some spots after or while in quarantine." Then there is a long list of drugs that are recommended. Then the fish dies and something is always attributed to it like an overdose. Myself, Atoll and Lasse just feel that keeping fish healthy is so much easier than trying to cure them later and most fish are so stressed in quarantine that thats where they get the disease from. Just my silly, senile opinion of course.

I keep telling this story but I am going to tell it again. When I was in Nam I spent the entire year in a jungle and I never came out. I slept in the mud every night and was bitten by rats.
But I had to take an anti malaria pill every day and a different one on Monday. If I did not, I was sure to contract malaria, which is a parasite like ich. Our POWs got malaria because they had no pills.
The Vietnamese people didn't get malaria because they were born there and were bitten every day. They acquired their immunity from their Mothers just like fish do. I didn't make this stuff up as you can read it on the many links I and Atoll posted.

We seriously want everyone to have healthy fish and we are trying to show that it can happen and it is simple. I never want to see anyone's fish die. First of all I like fish and feel really bad that we remove so many of them from the sea just to watch them die from some silly disease which is easily preventable. Secondly, these things are expensive so I don't want to see people losing their money.
But I am not the God of fish. Undergravel filters maybe, but not fish and certainly not corals. Have a great, healthy day.

 

[Brew12]

People who quarantine will never believe that and never have. But they just don't know.

Umm.. I quarantine, I know, and I believe. I just don't believe my husbandry skills are where they need to be yet to provide the low stress environment that is needed to help maintain the immune system.

But if it's luck, I am very lucky.

You are lucky. You married a freakin' supermodel!

 

[Paul B]

Umm.. I quarantine, I know, and I believe. I just don't believe my husbandry skills are where they need to be yet to provide the low stress environment that is needed to help maintain the immune system.

I know. But I meant Me, Atoll and Lasse. While your a Geezer, I was talking about 3 other Geezers who believe in immunity.

You are lucky. You married a freakin' supermodel!

That also had nothing to do with luck. She was near sighted.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Just to add... the phrase 'scientific fact' really gets my goat. THERE IS NO SUCH THING!

All science does is evaluate the balance of evidence for or against a hypothesis. If that balance of evidence changes over time due to a better understanding of the mechanisms behind the hypothesis or due to advancing experiments or due to a particular study being discarded then the conclusion also changes.

It's not rocket science... or it is, depending on how you evaluate the balance of evidence!

 

[Gweeds1980]

I know. But I meant Me, Atoll and Lasse. While your a Geezer, I was talking about 3 other Geezers who believe in immunity. [emoji14]



That also had nothing to do with luck. She was near sighted.

Oh to be a Geezer lol.

 

[MnFish1]

Only if those "Healthiest" were not continuously exposed to that organism.

I'll do what you do often - take one sentence out of a multi paragraph response (and use it to debunk everything you say). People, Fish, Leopards, everything even if at the height of health can succumb to an infection. I agree with you totally (as I've said multiple times, that if the 'victim' is unhealthy it makes it more likely to succumb.

I know. But I meant Me, Atoll and Lasse.I was talking about 3 other Geezers who believe in immunity.

Because you are a 'geezer', doesn't absolve you. Though I was taught to respect my elders. There is nothing in your argument that 'proves' that you're talking about 'immunity'. Everyone - geezers and newbs and other people here (including myself) believe in 'immunity' - to not believe in 'immunity' would be contrary to every scientific principle. TO suggest that you know how to ensure immunity (using only nutrition) is my problem with your argument.

Just to add... the phrase 'scientific fact' really gets my goat. THERE IS NO SUCH THING! All science does is evaluate the balance of evidence for or against a hypothesis. If that balance of evidence changes over time due to a better understanding of the mechanisms behind the hypothesis or due to advancing experiments or due to a particular study being discarded then the conclusion also changes. It's not rocket science... or it is, depending on how you evaluate the balance of evidence!

Does the moon revolve around the earth - is that a scientific fact? Does the Earth revolve around the sun - is that a scientific fact? It is common sense that there is a lot of scientific theory - just waiting for next paper to disprove the common wisdom - but that does not mean there aren't scientific facts. And if you just want to play semantics, ok - there is no such thing as a 'scientific fact' - but there are certainly issues/ideas that are considered 'fact'. Believe me - nothing on this thread (from you, Paul B, the other (with all due respect)) is fact either. Its anecdote.

There are lots of studies showing that (just CI) has a lethal dose in farmed fish (not exposed to it before). I presume these fish were 'well fed'.

 

[Mark Gray]

I know. But I meant Me, Atoll and Lasse. While your a Geezer, I was talking about 3 other Geezers who believe in immunity.



That also had nothing to do with luck. She was near sighted.

I follow all you guy's and oh yeah you guy's must be a lot older than me

 

[MnFish1]

46 years and 26 years (since I changed my ways) lucky? You really think skill and luck has anything to do with our success, honestly? ;Jawdrop

If its not 'luck' and its not 'skill' - you tell me - what is the source of your success. .

 

[MnFish1]

Only if those "Healthiest" were not continuously exposed to that organism.
The people that did not die of the black death or plague have relatives today who are immune to Aids virus. And that was 500 years ago.
By the way, most plague victims died from a virus, not the plague bacteria from rats. Actually it didn't even start on rats, but hamsters in China, but what do I know?

The correct food is certainly needed, but if you feed only sterilized food, (like most, but not all commercially available food and all dry food) your fish will never be immune from anything, even plague. And "luck" has little to do with it. I can put any fish with any disease in my tank and nothing will happen.

People who quarantine will never believe that and never have. But they just don't know. Just like UG filters. They can't possibly work right? But mine has been running longer than any tank on here just like my fish have been immune longer than any fish on here. Isn't that special But if it's luck, I am very lucky. ;Smuggrin
People just don't want to believe the 3 oldest, most experienced people on here with immune fish. You can believe the rumors about keeping disease away from fish but before you do, visit the disease forum and read all about the problems people have and all the dying fish. They usually start out with something like "my fish has some spots after or while in quarantine." Then there is a long list of drugs that are recommended. Then the fish dies and something is always attributed to it like an overdose. Myself, Atoll and Lasse just feel that keeping fish healthy is so much easier than trying to cure them later and most fish are so stressed in quarantine that thats where they get the disease from. Just my silly, senile opinion of course.

I keep telling this story but I am going to tell it again. When I was in Nam I spent the entire year in a jungle and I never came out. I slept in the mud every night and was bitten by rats.
But I had to take an anti malaria pill every day and a different one on Monday. If I did not, I was sure to contract malaria, which is a parasite like ich. Our POWs got malaria because they had no pills.
The Vietnamese people didn't get malaria because they were born there and were bitten every day. They acquired their immunity from their Mothers just like fish do. I didn't make this stuff up as you can read it on the many links I and Atoll posted.

We seriously want everyone to have healthy fish and we are trying to show that it can happen and it is simple. I never want to see anyone's fish die. First of all I like fish and feel really bad that we remove so many of them from the sea just to watch them die from some silly disease which is easily preventable. Secondly, these things are expensive so I don't want to see people losing their money.
But I am not the God of fish. Undergravel filters maybe, but not fish and certainly not corals. Have a great, healthy day.

Malaria is not a parasite like 'ich'. (meaning - though both are parasites, they have nothing in common).

Many of the Vietnamese people probably had 'chronic malaria' - resulting in morbidity to them. Though some likely 'survived'

The goal of a parasite is not to 'kill' their host. The goal is to keep reproducing while they use the host to live. This does not mean that it is 'good' for the host to have parasites 'living' on their energy stores.

I wasnt talking about the 'plague' - and you have used the plague was really a virus before. So - lets assume it was a virus. What caused millions of 'healthy' presumably well fed people to die of of a virus. What caused millions of people to die in influenza epidemics in - well lets look to 1918. They were also mostly young and well fed.

Note - none of this is to say you are 'wrong' that nutrition is not important and that live foods aren't beneficial. Its just to say - these aren't the 'only things' - and in fact, you dont know exactly 'why' you are successful - and are guessing...

 

[Brew12]

Oh to be a Geezer lol.

I probably don't qualify as a geezer unless you ask my wife. I haven't acquired the wisdom that Paul, Atoll, and Lasse have. I continue to learn an amazing amount from them.

But I still QT everything!

And I do that for scientific reasons. I have read the studies that show how fish immunity benefits from low level exposure to parasites. I have read the studies showing how bacteria, fish oils and other essential fatty acids are critical to fish immune health. I have also read the studies that show how a fish can temporarily lose its acquired immunity in a matter of hours if exposed to enough stress. I have read the studies that show they can permanently lose their acquired immunity in a week of bad stress.

Until I am convinced I can maintain the tank parameters my fish require to maintain their immunity I feel it is in mine and their best interest to protect them from those parasites. I encourage everyone new to the hobby to do the same.

I admire the methods used by those like Paul and Atoll and yourself that allow the fish to thrive without using QT.