It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Paul B]

MnFish1. First off Good Morning and thank you for that long post. I love it and certainly don't expect anyone to take my "opinions" as fact.
They came about from 60 years of keeping fish but can be totally wrong.
As for people moving and having power failures, I moved my tank here after it was five years old and I will be moving it again in April. Since 1971 here in NY we have had dozens of power failures, some lasting 5 days. I used to put bubbles from my SCUBA tank in my reef to keep water circulating.
If you search on this forum or any forum search for tank crashes and you will see that that is the biggest cause of tanks not lasting 20 or 30 years is diseases, algae, hitchhikers, in other words, tank crashes. I have never had one of those. Does that mean my system is perfect? Of course not, but it does mean that "it can work". Can you show me a tank that is very old that quarantines and is still healthy? Very old is not ten or fifteen. Maybe it can't work, we don't know. But I know my way can and I know of another tank on here that runs just like mine that I think is 26 years old.

My guess would be that there are as many people using QT methods with tanks that are that old as yours -

Can you point to just 1?

Im not sure why fish spawning is an indication of anything except your fish are well fed. This is common sense - but has nothing to do with immunity.

We disagree here. A spawning fish is a healthy fish and a healthy fish will have a functioning immune system. All fish spawn at least every few weeks as that is part of the normal functioning of a fish. So is their immune system and they both work together. A fish that is not producing eggs doesn't have the energy or correct diet to produce eggs and their immune system takes as many calories to produce immunity especially in their slime that is water soluble and washes off continuously. Yes, we have to feed correctly and enough. But that is part of my theory. Is it bad to feed enough for the fish to function as it is supposed to!

Having 'bacteria' in 'live food' - does not mean that the immune system is 'stronger'.

Maybe, but not having different strains of live bacteria will make their immune system go dormant. I have linked to that study on this forum.
Fish also have the ability, unlike us that allows their immune system to target some bacteria and parasites similar to ones they are immune from but not the exact ones. (I have also linked to that study)

Other people want different kinds of coral, etc - and as you have stated yourself - certain types of organisms would not live in your system. What is your solution for them?

Those corals won't live in my system because due to other endeavors I am involved in my nitrates are way to high. For the first 40 years of my tank my nitrates were about 10 and I could, and did keep everything. Now my fish have grown to large and I have too many of them which is my fault. My lighting is also no where near strong enough to keep delicate corals. I have about 2 watts per gallon over my tank which is perfect for what I want to keep now. If people want delicate SPS corals and spawning, healthy fish they should put the correct wattage lights over their tanks for that and keep less fish. There is no problem. I don't have a tank to keep those corals. I don't like them just as I don't particularly like tangs or angelfish. I find them boring as I had them for many years and now my interests changed to more, smaller more interesting, rarer fish.
It's just me.

Thus - you cant have 'every strain' of CI or 'every strain' of velvet in your tank at one time - thus - you cant ever provide 'all the stuff' for the fish to become immune to. This is the biggest argument against your theory - and it completely debunks it.

The fish we buy are infected with the bacteria and parasites that were in their shipping container and the store they came from. At that time fish are in terrible shape and will be affected by everything. If it debunks my theory, why are my fish immune? Even the 26 year olds. Why have I never in the history of forums ever posted on a disease forum about a parasite, fungus. Before that I published a few magazine articles in paper publications and they were also not about diseases but about spawning. Many times on this forum I posted about adding parasite infected fish to my system. Just last year I added 3 parasite laden shrimpfish. One died and I left it in there for the crabs. A also posted about a small copperband that I got very cheap loaded with parasites. I get fish all the time covered in parasites which I put in my tank and I post about them. Would you do that in a quarantined tank? Why not?

I mean people survived the plague as well in the Middle Ages - people survive ebola as well.

Yes they did. I just took a 6 hour course on the plague. There were 3 different types of plague but we just lump them together. Two of the strains had almost a 100% kill rate but the third type had only about a 70% kill rate and many people survived. If they did not, there may be no people alive today with fish tanks.

We also thought plague was a bacteria from rats but much, or most of it was viral and not from rats. (actually it started on gerbals in China)
They now know much of it was viral because the rats with plague died and didn't run to fast so they couldn't spread the infection as fast as they did. Also descendants of people who survived one of the three plagues in Europe are today immune from Aids. Only a virus can do that.
Just a thought.
MnFish, I am enjoying this conversation.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Yep, UV is a must I would say, particularly if 'converting' to this approach. Over time you may be able to ramp it's usage down. I'd go for something rated a lot higher than your tank volume and a real slow flow through it, max 1 x volume per hour, preferably less. Slower flow = more exposure time = more dead parasites.

Other than that your plan sounds good... we'll see if this works I guess! Apologies in advance if it doesn't!

Out of interest, what's the volume of your system? All in, before displacement I'm at 320g... just wondering if water volume has any effect.

Get a thread going to document your progress, would be good to see for sure.

I also have backup x 1, if not more, for every single piece of equipment... this will massively alleviate any stress events in the early days should something like a heater or return pump fail.

I will certainly add UV. And no need to apologise if this doesn't work because I will just be in the same situation I am in now

My system is around 750L actual water volume (approx. 200g), a 6x2x2 DT and a 4x1 sump. The UV unit I'm looking at getting is a 36W unit recommended for 620-1550L so it should be big enough.

I'll likely keep updating my current tank build with my experiences, I've also had a lot of issues with coral since starting this new tank so I am hoping this may help with that too.

As far as back up equipment goes I already keep a spare return pump and at least 1 spare wave maker on hand so that is all sorted. I am also hoping to upgrade my skimmer early next year so I will be able to keep the current one as a spare and I will order a spare bulb for the UV when I order the UV filter. Heaters 100% are not an issue for me and the only thing I don't have a spare of or wont be able to have a spare of any time soon is a chiller. Where I live my chiller (a Hailea 500) runs almost all day, all year just to keep my tank at 28C. I'd like to upgrade my chiller at some stage and would be able to keep this one as a spare but unless I win the lotto then that won't happen for at least 1-2 years at the earliest, I'm not quite sure what I would do if it broke to be honest haha. I guess my air-conditioning bill would get very expensive, very quickly while I worked as much OT as I could get my hands on

@MaccaPopEye, meant to add... if you have access to the ocean, I'd find some macro algae to add to your food mix... it will up the po4 and no3 readings tho once blended, so prepare for a spike.

Also, if you can collect any wild critters or even fish to add to the food, that will help no end.

I live in Northern Australia and have lots of ocean and even reefs that are exposed at low tide around. So I know a couple of places I should be able to get some macro when I need it. Wild critters or fish might be a bit harder just because I won't have the time to catch them often and don't know which of the intertidal species that I will have access to are good or bad, but I will definitely get down to the fish market and try to get my hands on some fresh fish guts and fresh muscles etc.

 

[Gweeds1980]

I will certainly add UV. And no need to apologise if this doesn't work because I will just be in the same situation I am in now

My system is around 750L actual water volume (approx. 200g), a 6x2x2 DT and a 4x1 sump. The UV unit I'm looking at getting is a 36W unit recommended for 620-1550L so it should be big enough.

I'll likely keep updating my current tank build with my experiences, I've also had a lot of issues with coral since starting this new tank so I am hoping this may help with that too.

As far as back up equipment goes I already keep a spare return pump and at least 1 spare wave maker on hand so that is all sorted. I am also hoping to upgrade my skimmer early next year so I will be able to keep the current one as a spare and I will order a spare bulb for the UV when I order the UV filter. Heaters 100% are not an issue for me and the only thing I don't have a spare of or wont be able to have a spare of any time soon is a chiller. Where I live my chiller (a Hailea 500) runs almost all day, all year just to keep my tank at 28C. I'd like to upgrade my chiller at some stage and would be able to keep this one as a spare but unless I win the lotto then that won't happen for at least 1-2 years at the earliest, I'm not quite sure what I would do if it broke to be honest haha. I guess my air-conditioning bill would get very expensive, very quickly while I worked as much OT as I could get my hands on [emoji14]



I live in Northern Australia and have lots of ocean and even reefs that are exposed at low tide around. So I know a couple of places I should be able to get some macro when I need it. Wild critters or fish might be a bit harder just because I won't have the time to catch them often and don't know which of the intertidal species that I will have access to are good or bad, but I will definitely get down to the fish market and try to get my hands on some fresh fish guts and fresh muscles etc.

Cool... pretty much any crabs or shrimp are good... should have a few of those exposed at low tide?

I'm very envious of where you live btw!

 

[tdileo]

I just came home with another one of these and he found his cousins in my tank and they are all playing and texting each other.

Sorry to hop in here, but what is the fluffy coral above that fish? Looks like something I have wanted for a very long time.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Cool... pretty much any crabs or shrimp are good... should have a few of those exposed at low tide?

I'm very envious of where you live btw!

I don't get to go out at low tide very often, the big tides are only once or twice a month and unfortunately I am almost always rostered to work when I want to go out!

But I do try to get out at least 3-4 times a year. There is quite a few small mud/swimmer crabs, teddy bear crabs and red claw crabs as well as mantis shrimp, glass shrimp and also some kinds of inter tidal shrimp that I can grab a few times a year. The shrimp would be fine but I don't know how the crab shells / mantis dactyls would go in a blender

Here is a few pics from some of my low tide trips if you are interested. I'm hoping to get out again for one of the good tides in early Jan.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/walking-around-the-reef-at-low-tide.308556/

 

[Paul B]

Sorry to hop in here, but what is the fluffy coral above that fish? Looks like something I have wanted for a very long time.

That is some type of encrusting gorgonian. Very nice and grew much larger. If it touches something, it may grow on it.

 

[tdileo]

That is some type of encrusting gorgonian. Very nice and grew much larger. If it touches something, it may grow on it.

So in that photo is it encrusted over something or it just grew out like that?

 

[Paul B]

It encrusted at the base to the rocks. The rest just sways in the current but if I put a rock next to it, it would grow to it.

 

[MnFish1]

Can you point to just 1?

Well I did’t know your tank was 60 years old. I thought it was 30 to 40The point is that there are lots of reasons that people don’t keep Reed tanks for 20 to 30 years. I don’t think it’s based on methods related to feeding or bacteria. How many public aquaria have been around for 30 years or more. My guess is that they use a quarantine method.

 

[Paul B]

They came about from 60 years of keeping fish but can be totally wrong.

My tank is 46 years old. I said I had tanks for 60 years, not that my tank is that old and I am almost 137.
There are lots of reasons people don't keep reef tanks for 30 or 40 years. I think quarantine is one of them as I have never heard of a very old quarantined tank, not one. Why is that? The hobby has been in the States since 1971 so there should be at least one old quarantined tank out of the millions of tanks started.
The two public aquariums in New York are both over 30 years old. I have no idea if they quarantine or not but we are not talking about public aquaria. I feel fish are never going to be at the top of their health if they are quarantined but that is just my opinion. All of our fish should only die of old age but that is also my opinion just like I believe fish should never get sick.

If people feel quarantining is the way to go, do that.
I don't care and I won't get mad over it.

 

[MnFish1]

My tank is 46 years old. I said I had tanks for 60 years, not that my tank is that old and I am almost 137.
There are lots of reasons people don't keep reef tanks for 30 or 40 years. I think quarantine is one of them as I have never heard of a very old quarantined tank, not one. Why is that? The hobby has been in the States since 1971 so there should be at least one old quarantined tank out of the millions of tanks started.
The two public aquariums in New York are both over 30 years old. I have no idea if they quarantine or not but we are not talking about public aquaria. I feel fish are never going to be at the top of their health if they are quarantined but that is just my opinion. All of our fish should only die of old age but that is also my opinion just like I believe fish should never get sick.

If people feel quarantining is the way to go, do that.
I don't care and I won't get mad over it.

Sorry - I couldn't reply to the rest on my phone. Im not a fan of quarantine - per se. Im only talking about your idea that its food or exposure to bacteria /parasites that has kept your tank healthy. The public aquarium industry has a super-strict biosecurity policy for new arrivals - so my guess is you could consider that 'quarantine'. Thats not saying that all of their fish have for 30 years - but - it does go against your theory that quarantine systems result in early fish death.

We disagree here. A spawning fish is a healthy fish and a healthy fish will have a functioning immune system. All fish spawn at least every few weeks as that is part of the normal functioning of a fish. So is their immune system and they both work together. A fish that is not producing eggs doesn't have the energy or correct diet to produce eggs and their immune system takes as many calories to produce immunity especially in their slime that is water soluble and washes off continuously. Yes, we have to feed correctly and enough. But that is part of my theory. Is it bad to feed enough for the fish to function as it is supposed to!

All good - however, most reefers don't have 2 of the same species in their tanks - so making spawning a criteria of a 'successful' tank or even correlating that with the immune system, IMHO, does not make sense. (people dont report it because they dont have a male and a female). Here is another contrary argument. Do the people who breed angelfish cardinals, etc professionally, i.e., the new aqua-cultured fish for example constantly expose their fish to 'bacteria and parasites'? I do not believe they do yet they spawn. It is that they are in good condition in general.

Maybe, but not having different strains of live bacteria will make their immune system go dormant. I have linked to that study on this forum.
Fish also have the ability, unlike us that allows their immune system to target some bacteria and parasites similar to ones they are immune from but not the exact ones. (I have also linked to that study)

Firstly, there has been alot of research done on vaccines for Ich. Ich is not a bacterium, it is a parasite. There is ample evidence that immunity to one strain of ich does not confer immunity to every strain. There may be 'some' degree of immunity between similar strains but there is ample evidence that it is not to 'all strains'.
Secondly - The immune systems of most if not all animals is not 100 % specific to one bacteria. In other words, if you have immunity to one strain of influenza, you probably have some immunity to a similar/not identical strain. this is not just in fish.
Thirdly - you say above not having exposure to different strains of 'live bacteria' will make their immune system go dormant. This is certainly true with Ich (the immunity starts to fall off after 6 months). I am not sure that it applies to 'bacteria'. (in fish - of course in humans we 'need' to get booster shots for influenza, tetanus, etc)

The fish we buy are infected with the bacteria and parasites that were in their shipping container and the store they came from. At that time fish are in terrible shape and will be affected by everything. If it debunks my theory, why are my fish immune? Even the 26 year olds.

There is a difference between 'being infected' (which implies a disease) and 'being in the presence' (commensal) of those bugs. In any case - there are certainly bacteria and other things in shipping containers. By your logic - that should help their immune systems not hurt them. There are a couple kinds of immunity, general immunity and immunity against a specific agent. It is well known that people with cancer, and poor nutrition have less immune function than a healthy person. My guess is that in your tank and others that are well fed they have a higher resistance to disease in general.

Lets say you have a tank full of fish from Indonesia - and you decide to add something from the carribean (that was carrying a different strain of ich or velvet that was present in your tank). You could have a full on outbreak - with many deaths (as has been described multiple times) - this is one of the reasons I asked you how often you have added fish over the last several years.

A also posted about a small copperband that I got very cheap loaded with parasites. I get fish all the time covered in parasites which I put in my tank and I post about them. Would you do that in a quarantined tank? Why not?

There are lots of fish that have partial immunity to ich that survive. This is well known - and researched. They get spots - and they go away. I dont understand the point. The fish that you get that are covered in parasites are no more or less likely to survive in your tank than any other. The fish that are in your tank already if they have been exposed to that variety of ich may do better. Its just that im positive that you dont have every strain of ich in your tank (or bacteria or velvet or fungus) so your fish aren't immune to every possibility.

Yes they did. I just took a 6 hour course on the plague. There were 3 different types of plague but we just lump them together. Two of the strains had almost a 100% kill rate but the third type had only about a 70% kill rate and many people survived. If they did not, there may be no people alive today with fish tanks.

My point was - in all of the plague examples - not 100% of people were killed. Some survived. OK - lets take the flu from 1918. Healthy (many more younger rather than older- which is usual) people were affected and died from this infection. Likely most of them had been exposed to and had immunity to 'influenza' just not that strain. The same thing can happen with Ich/Velvet - and if that strain is not in a given tank, the fish remain at 'high risk'.

Again - I hope you realize, I have no doubt that whatever you are doing is working for you. There is no evidence (to me) that fish in a QT system do worse than fish in your type of tank. One issue is that there are hundreds of thousands of tanks that use QT (of varying types) and then there is your tank and a handful of others, so of course one is going to hear about problems with QT methods.

 

[MnFish1]

I recommend running a UV filter in parasite mode or ozone. That will give you some margin in case you have a stress event happen in your tank. Even if you don't run them all the time you could turn them on if needed.

Paul can answer this - but - doesn't this reduce (not just ich) but 0ther bacteria/microfauna/etc that is beneficial to the tank? I know there is as big a debate about this as the current one - but just saying.

 

[mta_morrow]

While I am still new to this awesome hobby (2 years). I agree 100% with Paul and the OP. It’s a no brainer IMO. I tore down my first tank (IM30L) to move to Hilton Head from Dayton for my work. I now have access to live clams, mussels, and will be searching for black worms. I’m sure I will find them. I will be firing up a 525XL soon and am studying Paul’s threads and the OPs progress to help make a decision. I’ve always gone against the grain and have had great success. That and God have done me very well. I think I may give this ago. So far my vaccinations have worked, even the Navy ones. Hard to believe I have all those diseases in me yet I am immune to them.

 

[MnFish1]

While I am still new to this awesome hobby (2 years). I agree 100% with Paul and the OP. It’s a no brainer IMO. I tore down my first tank (IM30L) to move to Hilton Head from Dayton for my work. I now have access to live clams, mussels, and will be searching for black worms. I’m sure I will find them. I will be firing up a 525XL soon and am studying Paul’s threads and the OPs progress to help make a decision. I’ve always gone against the grain and have had great success. That and God have done me very well. I think I may give this ago. So far my vaccinations have worked, even the Navy ones. Hard to believe I have all those diseases in me yet I am immune to them.

Good luck (seriously) - by the way - most of the vaccines are 'dead' bacteria or viruses - they aren't alive - so luckily you dont have any of those diseases 'still' in you

 

[Paul B]

MnFish1. As we both know, this is not an exact science and whatever we suggest can be argued.

As for a UV for parasites. I don't know as I don't use a UV. I "think" parasites are mostly not affected by UV but I could be wrong. It may give them cataracts but I believe parasites are to large for UV to have any effect on them. It will kill bacteria, that is a well known fact as long as the UV is strong enough. They use it in the food industry for that. Most bacteria are not free swimming so I feel it is useless for an aquarium unless you want to kill free floating algae spores which it is very good at. I use Ozone and I have used it from the 70s way before I had corals. I just think it's cool and I don't use it for parasites. I like it for water conditions and weather it does anything or not, I also can't be sure because I always ran it. There have been times for a few weeks when the thing broke and it took me a while to get a new one. But there are brittle stars and large amphipods living in my skimmer with ozone so I doubt it does anything to parasites. I know there is anactodal evidence and rumors that say it kills parasites but I would have to see some dead parasites for myself or to me it is just a rumor and I don't do rumors.

A diatom filter will remove parasites as they are much larger than a micron which is the size particles diatoms will remove. Of course it will not capture every parasite.

 

[Paul B]

I will be firing up a 525XL soon and am studying Paul’s threads and the OPs progress to help make a decision.

There is very little fish information in most of my threads.

I’ve always gone against the grain and have had great success.

People think I go against the grain. I don't. Everybody else does. When I started my tank it was me and some bowlegged guy in Tibet who had a pet Yak with a salt water tank so there was no grain. Eventually someone, probably Bryant Gumbal invented the internet and everyone had their own grain. Now my grain (not Migrain) is on the back burner with a few other Geezers and many people think we are senile. We probably are.

So far my vaccinations have worked, even the Navy ones. Hard to believe I have all those diseases in me yet I am immune to them.

I had so many shots before I went to Viet Nam that they ran out of room and almost had to give them to me in my tongue.
6 shots at a time with guns in both arms at the same time. I am a walking vaccine factory. I should bleed into my tank to see if it makes my fish immune to parrot fever.

 

[mta_morrow]

Gweeds1980, thanks for this thread. I’m tagging along and will have questions in the near future. Cheers!

 

[Brew12]

Paul can answer this - but - doesn't this reduce (not just ich) but 0ther bacteria/microfauna/etc that is beneficial to the tank? I know there is as big a debate about this as the current one - but just saying.

It will, but it won't completely eradicate anything in a system unless it is grossly oversized. Its also why I wouldn't run it all the time. It can be invaluable imo if you have a heater failure, dosing issue, or other stressor event happen. It can help keep parasite numbers in check while the fish recover. I would turn it on any time I suspected a stress event or added a new fish.

 

[Mark-Stover]

Oh, if anyone decides to adopt this recipe, I have some caveats:
1. If you break your blender - I'm not liable.
2. Do NOT smell it... It's really, REALLY bad... remember, you can never unsmell anything!
3. Do NOT ask your better half to smell it, although funny, it can lead to...
4. Divorce... it wasn't my fault you made him / her smell it.
5. Do it whilst your family are out and then claim you bought it from your LFS.
6. If anyone's does see you make this, make sure you put all utensils and equipment in the bin... they will never want to eat from them again.
7. It is NOT my fault.
8. Do NOT ever go back into the same fishmonger with your better half (this one is from personal experience).
9. Burn the clothing you wear when you make this. That smell doesn't wash out.
10. Do NOT feed the bits left in the blender at the end to your dog.
11. If your dog is sick, clear it up quickly. It smells worse than it did on the way in.

Thanks for the laugh! I even got my wife laughing when I read her this one. It does sound totally interesting to me down the road though.

 

[Tristren]

MnFish1. As we both know, this is not an exact science and whatever we suggest can be argued.

As for a UV for parasites. I don't know as I don't use a UV. I "think" parasites are mostly not affected by UV but I could be wrong. It may give them cataracts but I believe parasites are to large for UV to have any effect on them. It will kill bacteria, that is a well known fact as long as the UV is strong enough. They use it in the food industry for that. Most bacteria are not free swimming so I feel it is useless for an aquarium unless you want to kill free floating algae spores which it is very good at. I use Ozone and I have used it from the 70s way before I had corals. I just think it's cool and I don't use it for parasites. I like it for water conditions and weather it does anything or not, I also can't be sure because I always ran it. There have been times for a few weeks when the thing broke and it took me a while to get a new one. But there are brittle stars and large amphipods living in my skimmer with ozone so I doubt it does anything to parasites. I know there is anactodal evidence and rumors that say it kills parasites but I would have to see some dead parasites for myself or to me it is just a rumor and I don't do rumors.

A diatom filter will remove parasites as they are much larger than a micron which is the size particles diatoms will remove. Of course it will not capture every parasite.

Is there more info somewhere on how you use Ozone and why?