My LFS says that's why the wholesalers do that. The one wholesaler that ships with a normal salinity uses NSW.
It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)
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Interesting. It doesn't make sense to me that this should help - since if its really effective at 1/4 the dose we could also use 1/4 the dose as well (assuming some of the fish he gets in have ich/velvet whatever he is treating. )
Brew12
Electrical Gru
The copper levels aren't enough eliminate the parasites. It just reduces the numbers. I can't find a free copy of it right now for some reason but I believe it was documented here "Cryptocaryon Irritans Brown 1951, the Cause of ‘white Spot Disease’ in Marine Fish: An Update". I believe this is the study that talks about how subtherapuetic levels of copper causes enough genetic damage to limit reproduction rates.
As a side rant... I appreciate how helpful google tries to be through artificial intelligence but I wish it wouldn't try so hard. Every search I do for Cryptocaryon Irritans gives me almost nothing but articles on immunity based on my previous searches. Even when I only use "Cryptocaryon Irritans copper". :mad:
Greenstreet.1
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@The Fish whispers I just came back from the fish market about to make my mix. What you guys think about me adding some garlic into the mix ?
@Mr. Paul B. @Mr. Atoll @Mr.Lasse
@Mr. Paul B. @Mr. Atoll @Mr.Lasse
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Ive heard garlic is bad for fish livers. Not sure if its true. My flake has garlic. I also add cod liver oil once a week to the flake. No problems.
Greenstreet.1
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Not really looking for a not sure answer and I know about the liquid I’m asking about the garlic itself but thank you.
Greenstreet.1
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If you took that as rude you have problems
Greenstreet.1
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You have a blessed day. Enjoy
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If you want a 'for sure' answer, it might be helpful for you to post the 'liquid' you're planning to use? In reality there is no 'for sure' answer. There are reports suggesting that its benefits are limited and there are potential liver issues:
"Here is something from a research scientist in another forum:
So why not use garlic in marine fish diets.
1 Long term heart and liver lesions
Terrestrial plant lipids are well known to cause heart and liver lesions in marine fish. The problem with feeding terrestrial plant oils (not just garlic but any terrestrial plant oil) to reef fish is problematic due the nature of the lipids the fish do not possess the enzymes to digest them correctly and this leads to fatty deposits and serious pathological changes in the heart and liver of fish that are fed these lipids. Although these are not instantly fatal they cause chronic change to these organs and long term deterioration in the health of the fish. Granted much of this his work is done on farmed fish, but it is a well known phenomena and here are some of the research papers that detail this problem.
AH, Sargent JR, Thompson KD 1993
Terrestrial and fish oils affect phospholipid fatty acid composition, development of cardiac lesions, phospholipase activity and eicosanoid production in Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar).
Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 49(3):665-73
AH, Park MT, Sargent JR.1991.
High dietary linoleic acid affects the fatty acid compositions of individual phospholipids from tissues of Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar): association with stress susceptibility and cardiac lesion.
J Nutr. 121(8):1163-72
J. Gordon Bell2, John McEvoy3, Douglas R. Tocher, Fiona McGhee, Patrick J. Campbell* and John R. Sargent 2004
Replacement of Fish Oil with Rapeseed Oil in Diets of Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar) Affects Tissue Lipid Compositions and Hepatocyte Fatty Acid Metabolism
The American Society for Nutritional Sciences
J.G. Bell1, D.R. Tocher1, B.M. Farndale1, A.H. McVicar2 and J.R. Sargent1 1999
Effects of essential fatty acid-deficient diets on growth, mortality, tissue histopathology and fatty acid compositions in juvenile turbot (Scophthalmus maximus)
Journal Fish Physiology and Biochemistry 1573-5168 Volume 20, Number 3 p263-277
SL Seierstad, TT Poppe, EO Koppang, A Svindland, G 2005
Influence of dietary lipid composition on cardiac pathology in farmed Atlantic salmon, Salmo salar L
Journal of Fish Diseases.
These scientific journals detail the pathology and chronic changes due to these lipids (there are many more) but there aren’t any on reef fish, mainly as they are not a major farmed species or laboratory model, however if you apply the precautionary principal to your fish (in the same way it is applied to Humans) then you wouldn’t feed your marine fish diets containing terrestrial lipids. This has a human health comparison with Trans fats, very useful in making vegetable oils butter like so common in vegetable spreads and thought to be harmless until it turns out they cause liver tumors & heart disease in rats and mice and probably in humans too. So if this evidence is good enough to ban trans fats in foods then the much stronger data in fish should be good enough to ensure you don’t feed terrestrial oils to reef fish. As I said earlier my lab (which is a fish health research lab at a leading University) is often asked to carry out feed trials for feed manufactures and we have carried out many that use garlic or garlic extracts. Unfortunately these are considered to be commercially sensitive and I cannot tell you the results of using them to control white spot (but suffice to say the companies we have carried out scientific trials have all decided not to launched garlic supplemented feeds). However I did persuade one feed manufacturer to allow me to post the growth data from their feed trial on UR. The results were, well, damning for garlic. Here is the link to the trial from my lab in this thread
http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/s...d.php?t=230961 (http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/s...d.php?t=230961)
Why do manufactures put it in their food? well clearly there is a demand for it and they are supplying that market demanded. It doesn’t mean it good for your fish it just means that they will sell more of their food if people are misinformed and think it is beneficial"
In any case, here is an interesting article discussing fish nutrition, in general, including many myths and a nice paragraph on live foods. I don't advocate for their points, but it seems like a good reference article.
www.advancedaquariumconcepts.com/myths-and-misconceptions-about-fish-nutrition/
Greenstreet.1
5000 Club Member
Thank you I know about the liquid was not sure about the garlic itself so I asked before I mixed it in the food. I will do some research hopefully before I make the next batch I will find out. Thank you for the info.
Could these findings perhaps be because of difference in the amount of lipids present as a ratio of total volume of foodstuffs?
If you actually analyzed the types of lipids present between 1 or organic source to another, you would find the vast majority of the lipids in each to be primarily made up of the same amino acids, palmitic and palmitoleic acids. But a high variability in the amount of lipids to total material present. Ie phytoplankton having the highest lipids to mass. This itself a reflection of food chain entropy.
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Not sure of your point. Palmitic and and palmitoleic are 'fatty acids' not 'amino acids'. There are many other types of lipids in organisms besides fatty acids (phospholipids, steroids, fat itself (a fatty acid bound to an alcohol). I think the point of this guys post was that using terrestrial lipid supplementation has been shown to cause liver damage and heart damage in marine fish (the examples he uses are farmed fish). He is talking about the 'type of fat' not the ratio of fat to other stuff.
Sorry mistyped i am still waking up, was a long week. Going to have coffee before posting anymore lol.
Did find your full article though, will read during my coffee.
Did find your full article though, will read during my coffee.
@MnFish1
The garlic discussion is rather complicated and my standpoint for the moment is that its doubtful if it is as good as it says but harmful because there is some terrestrial plant fatty acids in it – no way. But this is of topic – we maybe should discuss this in another thread.
One clue – the content of terrestrial plant fatty acids in commercial fish food is today much, much higher than you get if you ad some garlic to the food to your fish. And this is valid even for predatory cold-water species as salmon and turbot. Yet – you can´t totally skip the fish oil but there is a huge work been done, and in work, in order to limit the use of fish oil to feed farmed fishes.
Sincerely Lasse
The garlic discussion is rather complicated and my standpoint for the moment is that its doubtful if it is as good as it says but harmful because there is some terrestrial plant fatty acids in it – no way. But this is of topic – we maybe should discuss this in another thread.
One clue – the content of terrestrial plant fatty acids in commercial fish food is today much, much higher than you get if you ad some garlic to the food to your fish. And this is valid even for predatory cold-water species as salmon and turbot. Yet – you can´t totally skip the fish oil but there is a huge work been done, and in work, in order to limit the use of fish oil to feed farmed fishes.
Sincerely Lasse
Greenstreet.1
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Thread created in nutrition section.
Big % it may be but as I say it is very forgiving and does not seem to affect the many corals I have dipped since using it. I am of course only reporting my experience in using Dettol this way but I also know many others use it in a similar manner.
1/ Equalise the temp of the fish in the bag by floating it for 2o to 30 mins.
2/ Mix the water from the DT with the bag over another half hour or so.
3/Release the fish with the water in the bag into the DT.
No QT and all very simple really.
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