OP
OP
Bare in mind that there is no such thing as 'a bit immune' either you (or your fish!) are immune or you're not... in other words, do this the full hog or not at all
It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)
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Paul B
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I have been SCUBA diving in New York for almost 50 years so I should not only be dead, but pickled.
What foods have live bacteria? I feed LRS reef frenzy and it says it has bacteria.
Paul B
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LRS foods do have live bacteria and probiotics and I use it almost every day. But I also want the bacteria that comes from fresh foods, the so called bad bacteria that will enhance the fishes immune system. Fish need disease pathogens as well as viruses and parasites to stay immune to them. Nothing else will keep fish (or us) immune.
I use live blackworms and fresh clams that I freeze.
I use live blackworms and fresh clams that I freeze.
jasonrusso
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I can get live clams and oysters at the market. Where do you get live worms?
OP
OP
Are you also making food with whole fish? That seems to be working wonders for me... buy fresh whole fish and any other whole (guts intact), fresh seafood you can get hold of and blend it all up... the bacteria and pathogens you want will all be in there. I now feed blackworm as a treat as my supply has dried up a little as we head into winter. I also feed whole mussels, frozen when fresh and any critters I can pick up whilst at the beach.
Apotack
Well-Known Member
“Bare in mind that there is no such thing as 'a bit immune' either you (or your fish!) are immune or you're not... in other words, do this the full hog or not at all “
It’s not immunity but a strong immune system that you want.
It’s not immunity but a strong immune system that you want.
OP
OP
No, sorry, common misunderstanding. You want a strong innate immune system (the physical barriers to disease and the cellular response) but true immunity to specific pathogens is only achieved by exposure to those pathogens which then allows the adaptive immune system to manufacture specific antigens to combat those diseases. So it is, in fact, immunity to specific pathogens that you want.
We can control that exposure to a certain degree by feeding foods contaminated by those pathogens. The fishes adaptive immune system will use that as a cue to start manufacturing the required antigens. However an adaptive immune response is expensive, biologically speaking, so unless the fish is exposed periodically, immunity will be lost within 6 months.
elisa h
Active Member
What kind of fish do you like to use? Do you have to skin the fish or anything or just chop it up whole? (Sorry I have absolutely no experience with fish from the market as I don't eat seafood lol)
OP
OP
Anything really... seafish obvs. I tend to go for more omega 3 rich fish if possible, mackerel, sardines etc. Buy the whole fish, guts and all, don't take anything off or out. Just blend it up with a little tank water until you get something like lumpy porridge. I chuck in extra omega 3 capsules, caulerpa from my fuge, shellfish (without the shells lol)... Anything really.
elisa h
Active Member
Ok thanks. This will be a struggle for me as the reason I don't eat seafood is I can't stand that fishy smell/taste! I will power through though. I'll probably try to blend everything up outside so my house doesn't smell like fish haha
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I used to make my own fish food for my fresh water fish, that was just shrimp and peas, if you are going to do fish guts and the like get a respirator, it may sound silly but you will thank me. Also, get a second hand or cheap blender just for the fish food, trust me, after smelling the unfrozen food you will never ever want that blender touching anything you eat again cleaning or no cleaning.
OP
OP
I refer you to my earlier post in this very thread!
Paul B
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Shellfish such as clams are the least messy, are cheap and contain the bacteria the fish need as shellfish are filter feeders. I mainly use clams
You have a point here. I normally transfer my fishes directly to the DT. However some delicate species may not manage that (direct from a transport from the other side of the world) Of that reason I nowadays put these fish alone in the fuge for a week or two ore – some fishes like the cardinals – I only buy fishes that have been at the LFS for a while. Either – I never put in a fish with sign of sickness. Normally wild fish has some bacteria or parasites with them – and that’s enough. A fish showing sign of sickness often act as mass producer of these organisms – that could be risky
I – like Paul.B – do not have any tangs. I do not feed with fresh food very often – but only with frozen natural food – not prepared food. Has been doing that for the whole lifetime of my present aquaria (1.6 years)
I´m not sure that frozen food lack bacteria – most is only inhibited. Take a part of frozen food – put in a plastic bag. At the same time – take prepared food and put in another plastic bag. Let both be in room temperature for a week. Put in your nose and smell after a week. I think that your conclusion will be – there has been a bacteria breakdown in the bag with frozen food – but not in the prepared
I do not use ozone in this tank – but a similar technique – the oxidator
I have been in this hobby since 1972 – first as a freshwater aquarist, since 1986 been near or in business according to fishes (fish farms, scientific works, alternative wastewater treatments, public aquaria and so on) Since 2006 only salt water as a hobby but still working with other fish related issues.
I have been a helper to a friend that import reef fishes for nearly 14 years now – according to ick – I have seen hundreds of varieties according to outbreak – but always connected to stress in on or another form. But there can be a fish (tang) going for weeks without any signs – suddenly ich. It has happens that tangs has been in the store for months – without any itch – transferred to a customer’s tank – ich after a short time in the new tank.
What have I learned after all these years – the main mantra is – diseases of all forms in fish – 99 % of the cases caused by some stress factor often combined with a low nutrient state of the fish. Good nutrient state include fatty acids like Omega-3. There is very few microorganisms that is killing our fishes in a obligated way – its mostly a combination of stress factors and nutrient/energy levels – the microorganisms is always there because its water we talk about.
When you put in a fish in a quarantine tank, properly cleaned with chemicals since last use, new or no gravel, no tank mates, some tubes to hide inside, clean filters, bad nitrification and so one. What do you think will happen with this already stressed fish? No other fish in sight – danger – into the shelter – make you as small as possible – more stress. Feeding a lot – fish need energy after transport – ammonia – stress – more problem.
If I should use a type of quarantine before introduction to my main tank – I would have a tank that’s work and with some small fishes (Mollys or guppies – yes I know its saltwater) just in order to have the fish stress down and start to eat. Never – ever use medication if there is no sickness. During the end of the observation period – slowly mix with water from the main tank. With very aggressive fishes in the tank – I have introduced newcomers through a floating net cage – so the newcomers get the same smell (yes I have had African Cichlids
)To use quarantine procedures for land living animals is good for them but to have the same procedures for fishes probably kill more fish than it save. I know that I will get every Veterinarian out there to go into spin – but its not the first time it has happens when I discuss these problems.
In a biological adapted system (it means gravel, DSB, algaes, bacteria, filtrating animals, dirt and whatever you want) – there is a balance between good organisms, organisms that can be evil and evil organisms. It’s a competition about living space. Its like the metro – if its full – its full and you will not come into the train – and if you do – you can´t move
I´m also keen to add shrimps, crabs, hermits and other scavengers to the system. If a fish will die – they will fast convert the body to food and prevent that the dead fish will act as a reservoir for the “evil” microorganisms
It’s a lot of discussion of how the fishes defence system differ from others – even if its I some cases unspecific – its depending of the fishes nutrient and energy level. A well feed fish with a lot of the right lipids can handle and maintain even the unspecific defence system. A fish in poor condition can´t either that or maintain immunity.
I also do not think it's entirely random that at least 3 of us, who according to this question say the same thing, (I, Paul.B and Atoll) are older gentlemen who grow up in a time when they said - a little **** cleans the stomach
Sincerely Lasse
Brew12
Electrical Gru
I completely agree with this yet I am still a big fan of QT and the prophylactic treating of new fish.
@Paul B has return pumps that are older than I am and still running strong. I promise you that high quality pumps are not the number 1 seller in the US. What is cheapest is what sells best. High quality frozen or fresh foods are not the most popular choice for most hobbyists. Flakes and pellets dominate the food market. I would bet that fewer than 20% of salt water aquarium owners in the US have a separate heater controller to prevent a stuck on heater from wiping their tank.
I can walk into a pet store here, pick up a 55g tank with a light, filter,heater, powerhead, sand, rock and food for under $350. For another $50 I can get a Hippo tang and clown fish which they will tell me is appropriate for my new tank. If I would get parasites in this system it will wipe the tank. And, sad though it is, this is much closer to what the typical new hobbyist does than is the person who pays extra for quality and redundancy. When fish become so expensive that we wouldn't consider risking their lives in an effort to save equipment costs QT will also play a role.
And then there is the fact that many people don't want their tanks to look like the actual ocean. They want their systems to look like what they think a reef looks like, not a real reef. They want very low nutrients, perfectly clear water, no little particles floating around and completely algae free. This isn't exactly the low stress environment fish need either. Its also unlike any reef I've ever been diving on. Maybe I'm diving the wrong reefs.....
For many people in the hobby, detailed QT procedures are the only thing standing between them and wiping a tank due to disease. I look at it in terms of 3 categories.
1) A natural immunity based system is better than....
2) A lower reliability system where everything is quarantined is better than...
3) A lower reliability system without quarantine.
We have a lot of hobbyists in category 3. Many fish can be saved if we get them up to category 2. This is much cheaper than trying to get them into category 1.
@tj w
My experiences is not from reading on internet - its from working with fish in captivity since 1972.
However - I would never - as Gweeds1980 - consciously introduce a sick fish to my system.
Sincerely Lasse
My experiences is not from reading on internet - its from working with fish in captivity since 1972.
However - I would never - as Gweeds1980 - consciously introduce a sick fish to my system.
Sincerely Lasse
OP
OP
This isn't about playing with fire or taking chances. This is about giving the right fuel and environment for the fishes immune systems to do exactly what it's spent millions of years evolving to do.
I think you have been proved wrong many times. After 25 plus years with no quarantining of my fish and with no serious outbreaks of diseases in any of my tanks. The fire is well an truly extinguished if it was ever really smouldering in the first place. Paul B, myself and others practice similar methods and I can assure you we are not lucky in what we have achieved over many years in this hobby.
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