Just Dont Know What to do Any More

Trukingny · May 12, 2021

I just dont know what to do any more. I'm really on the edge of just throwing in the towel and giving up. This will be a long rant but i dont know where else to post it..
I started my tank with dry rock and its bare bottom(tank is a cadlights 45 swallow) its been up and running 2 years now and no luck. i like the bare bottom look. i just placed corals in about a month ago and having no luck with them. my po4 and no3 was a little high. my alk,ca and mg have been right on. i have a refugium to control nutrients. My lighting is good enough i believe i have a Hydra 26hd and a Hydra 32hd. I know there more info that needs to be known im just frustrated right now to write everything. In the pics you can see either the coral is dying or close to dead. And some of these are suppose to be easy like monti cap or a birdnest or a buublegum digi. the green one is suppose to be my frogspawn. but then you have my yummas and bubbletip that are doing great

HB AL · May 12, 2021

Your gonna need to post all your different types of water params for people to know as something must definitely be way off in your water chemistry.

Birddog61 · May 12, 2021

The green hair algae is out competing the sps for po2 most likely

NeonRabbit221B · May 12, 2021

Have you tried an ICP? I would do an ICP

Biokabe · May 12, 2021

Overall, you don't look too far off from where you should be from what you have posted. However, there is some missing information and a very little bit that I see that might be indicitive.

First off: You've given most of your chemistry parameters, but there a couple of things missing:

Temperature range
PH range
Salinity

Given the care you've taken with the rest of the parameters and where they seem to be, my hunch is that those three will be where they should be. I'd second the call for an ICP test just to determine if there are any unexpected contaminants in your water.

What is your water change schedule? What, if anything, do you dose? Have you calibrated your Trident recently? What is the flow like in your tank? Have you measured your PAR?

Your phosphates are a little high, but not really in the danger zone - I'd want to get them down to about half of where they are. But what I do notice in your tank is that both of the critters you mention doing well - your bubbletip and your ricordea - are both things that like lower light and lower flow. The things that aren't doing as well are things that like higher light and higher flow. So I personally would want to rule out both of those things as being an issue before looking for a deeper issue that might not be there.

Trukingny · May 12, 2021

HB AL said:
Your gonna need to post all your different types of water params for people to know as something must definitely be way off in your water chemistry.

I posted my graphs of po4,no3,alk,ca,mg.. what else should i post?

Trukingny · May 12, 2021

Biokabe said:
Overall, you don't look too far off from where you should be from what you have posted. However, there is some missing information and a very little bit that I see that might be indicitive.

First off: You've given most of your chemistry parameters, but there a couple of things missing:

Temperature range

PH range

Salinity

Given the care you've taken with the rest of the parameters and where they seem to be, my hunch is that those three will be where they should be. I'd second the call for an ICP test just to determine if there are any unexpected contaminants in your water.

What is your water change schedule? What, if anything, do you dose? Have you calibrated your Trident recently? What is the flow like in your tank? Have you measured your PAR?

Your phosphates are a little high, but not really in the danger zone - I'd want to get them down to about half of where they are. But what I do notice in your tank is that both of the critters you mention doing well - your bubbletip and your ricordea - are both things that like lower light and lower flow. The things that aren't doing as well are things that like higher light and higher flow. So I personally would want to rule out both of those things as being an issue before looking for a deeper issue that might not be there.

Here is my temp and ph charts also my salinity is 1.026 with the hanna salinity meter calibrated monthly... my trident just got next reagents a month ago and calibrated 3 dats after. Going to order an icp test with do you recommend. Ive done the ati one a year ago.. also i do a 5 gallon waterchange every week is is 10% of my water volume so frustrated feelibg im doing everything right and have all the right equipment. Also flow i have an mp10, icecap gyre 1k and a apex neptune waz pump.. i dose mb7 every other day and brightwell amino daily

Dom · May 12, 2021

I would say that the mixture of corals are the problem. You have some thriving and some dying; right?

To me, this suggests the conditions are right for some, but not all.

Duffer · May 12, 2021

I had similar experi and I came to the conclusion is was me starting with dry rock…it took my tank about 2 1/2 yrs to really mature…I can now keep and grow sps corals… you may want to just start out with lps coral for the time being and let your tank mature…

I also believe in an icp test

MaxTremors · May 12, 2021

I think we’re seeing this more and more often where tanks started with 100% dry rock have this kind of unexplainable failure to thrive. Your params don’t seem too out of wack, and are fairly stable. But as live rock is phased out more and more, it seems like we’re seeing more tanks like this where SPS just don’t do well. I don’t know what exactly Is the cause of this, and I don’t have any data to back it up, but I feel like the lack of mature, biodiverse live rock is the common denominator. Might be something to consider (adding some real live rock).

Biokabe · May 12, 2021

I went through a similar experience not too long ago, so I'll just share what happened with me.

This was me at rock-bottom:

Most corals don't last long. In almost all cases, the pattern is the same: The coral goes into the tank. Within days, flesh begins to recede. Coloration fades and bare skeleton begins appearing. Springs of slimy, cyano-like algae begin covering the coral. And then there's nothing left.

To save you the time, here's what I did:

First, I dosed with Chemiclean. That's irrelevant in your case, as you don't seem to have any appreciable cyano. So you at least have a leg up on me there.

Second, I took down my gyre pumps and put up a pair of Wav pumps, on the back wall of the tank (so blowing towards the front). I eventually added back in one of the gyres to give some cross-current flow. All three of them are set on simple random settings - if they were all going at full blast (the level I've set as their max, rather than their absolute max) and pointing in the same direction, it would probably be about 5000 gph, which is about 70 times tank volume. I honestly don't think your flow hardware is bad, though how well it's working for you will depend on its placement.

Third, I added in some live rock from KP Aquatics. Not a whole lot; I think it was about 10 pounds or so.

Fourth, I stopped ALL dosing.

Fifth, I stepped up my water changes, up to about 15% every week.

Sixth, I rented a PAR meter and mapped out the levels in my tank. Once I had done that, I realized that I wasn't actually providing enough light for the high-light corals I wanted to keep (I was getting about 250 PAR in the top zones of my tank, but they were used to 300-350). So I added a 3rd Radeon to my lights.

Seventh, I increased the amount that I was feeding, and made a concerted effort to feed frozen at least 4-5 times per week. I made sure that the frozen included both larger pieces (like mysis) and plenty of smaller pieces (like cyclops and copepods). And I made sure to target-feed any of my fleshier corals.

Finally, I added in a bunch of new critters for my CUC.

Overall, I feel like it did turn around my tank. None of the steps I took were a silver bullet in and of themselves, but the combination of everything did put things back on the right track.

HB AL · May 12, 2021

Starting a new tank with all live rock, sand and water from another tank absolutely creates instantly a mature tank with no type of cycle and adding all corals and fish, etc... immediately creates all the needed benefits the other tank was at.

CoralB · May 12, 2021

What type of lighting are you using and at what levels ?

Timfish · May 12, 2021

I'd say the microbial processes in your system are really skewed. Some things I would do:

Get rid of any algae in the refugium, turn off the lights, add some quality maricultured live rock to introduce cryptic sponges. (See Forest ROhwer's "Coral Reef in the Microbial Seas", kindle is ~$10 and de Goeij's work on sponges, links below and AquaBiomics article on live rock).

Do some water changes with water from an established reef that has established corals.

Don't dose anything outside of what's needed to maintain alkalinity, calcium and magnesium.

If you're not feeding daily I'd start doing so.

Turn off your skimmer.

Videos and refferences in no particular order

Establishing a Healthy Microbiome in a New Aquarium Using Live Rock

Studying the effects of live rock in a newly established aquarium shows that high-quality live rock promotes the rapid establishment of an effective biological filter and a microbial community similar to those found in mature reef tanks.

www.reef2reef.com

Forest Rohwer "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas"

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont

Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"

https://pure.rug.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/14555035/13completethesis.pdf

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton - PubMed

Coastal pollution and algal cover are increasing on many coral reefs, resulting in higher dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations. High DOC concentrations strongly affect microbial activity in reef waters and select for copiotrophic, often potentially virulent microbial populations. High...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop

Error - Cookies Turned Off

besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

The Development of a Method for the Quantitative Evaluation of Protein Skimmer Performance

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Protein skimmers have become indispensable for many aquarists who strive to maintain the high water quality necessary to keep stony corals.

reefs.com

Further Studies on Protein Skimmer Performance

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Many factors contribute to the 'value' of a skimmer to an aquarist, including quality of construction, size, footprint, noise level, ease of cleaning, energy efficiency of the pump, and of course, the ability...

reefs.com

Skimmate Analysis

Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration

What are the bacteria populations in the water column of reef tanks, and how does that value compare with bacterial counts in authentic reef water? Does carbon dosing indeed increase water column bacteria populations (i.e., is growth carbon limited)? Does mechanical filtration (protein skimming...

reefs.com

Trukingny · May 12, 2021

Wow thank you for all the information everyone. Now time to see if i can find someone local to get some water from from their tank. Also can i put the live rock in my refugium?

Trukingny · May 12, 2021

CoralB said:
What type of lighting are you using and at what levels ?

Both my hydras lightning scd

CoralB · May 13, 2021

Did you acclimate your coral to this light schedule when you put them in the tank or did you just put them in with this schedule ?

Gogol_frag · May 13, 2021

Timfish said:
I'd say the microbial processes in your system are really skewed. Some things I would do:

Get rid of any algae in the refugium, turn off the lights, add some quality maricultured live rock to introduce cryptic sponges. (See Forest ROhwer's "Coral Reef in the Microbial Seas", kindle is ~$10 and de Goeij's work on sponges, links below and AquaBiomics article on live rock).

Do some water changes with water from an established reef that has established corals.

Don't dose anything outside of what's needed to maintain alkalinity, calcium and magnesium.

If you're not feeding daily I'd start doing so.

Turn off your skimmer.

Videos and refferences in no particular order

Establishing a Healthy Microbiome in a New Aquarium Using Live Rock

Studying the effects of live rock in a newly established aquarium shows that high-quality live rock promotes the rapid establishment of an effective biological filter and a microbial community similar to those found in mature reef tanks.

www.reef2reef.com

Forest Rohwer "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas"

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont

Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"

https://pure.rug.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/14555035/13completethesis.pdf

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton - PubMed

Coastal pollution and algal cover are increasing on many coral reefs, resulting in higher dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations. High DOC concentrations strongly affect microbial activity in reef waters and select for copiotrophic, often potentially virulent microbial populations. High...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop

Error - Cookies Turned Off

besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

The Development of a Method for the Quantitative Evaluation of Protein Skimmer Performance

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Protein skimmers have become indispensable for many aquarists who strive to maintain the high water quality necessary to keep stony corals.

reefs.com

Further Studies on Protein Skimmer Performance

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Many factors contribute to the 'value' of a skimmer to an aquarist, including quality of construction, size, footprint, noise level, ease of cleaning, energy efficiency of the pump, and of course, the ability...

reefs.com

Skimmate Analysis

Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration

What are the bacteria populations in the water column of reef tanks, and how does that value compare with bacterial counts in authentic reef water? Does carbon dosing indeed increase water column bacteria populations (i.e., is growth carbon limited)? Does mechanical filtration (protein skimming...

reefs.com