KH Director

[eg8r210]

You are only partially correct, for the example you describe above for low calcium, Triton would recommend a remedial dose given in addition to bring calcium back up to level, this is given seperatly to your dosing schedule and only contains calcium and no trace elements and is added over a few days manually. Your daily dosing amounts would not change for any of the elements otherwise you would lose control over the others, whilst trying to compensate for the Calcium.

You basically said I was partially correct while reiterating exactly what I said. People (not you) seem to be caught up in the whole dosing part of KHD and don't understand how to use it. It is a test to show where Alk is at. I specifically chose calcium in my example to be anything other than Alk to try and get people back to thinking how they normally would handle a change.

The KHD should not be the "doser" for Alk and I don't believe it was ever intended to suit that purpose. It has the ability to dose to make incremental corrections when the dosing program is falling short, or shooting off the charts. It should be used to notify the reefer that there is a problem and fix make a TEMPORARY fix to mitigate catastrophe. I honestly believe there are going to be people that are going to start complaining that the KHD caused their calcium and magnesium to go off the charts. When we ask what happened they are going to show us that their Alk had dropped by a point and a half and they had the KHD make the correction to the Alk and then programmatically propagated the same "increases" across the other balling doses.

 

[eg8r210]

I think the difference here is that from one angle the KHD is being viewed as the vehicle to adjust your alk dosing if it strays from your normal dosing. So, in essence a standalone supplement to your regular dosing.

On the other hand, we're looking at the KHD to fully automate alk dosing and in turn for the Triton/AF/balling folks, have the other supplements required for those methods to mimic the alk dosing head that's controlled by the KHD. So, in essence, fully automating ALL dosing based of KHD.

I fall in that second camp, and is what I'm hoping for from the KHD. Though, I would be curious to know how many people are viewing this new piece of equipment as example 'A' vs example 'B'.

You fall into the second camp and I surely hope you don't end up screwing everything up. You are looking for something to do your job for you and you are picking a piece of equipment designed for one thing and expecting it to perform another. On top of that we are talking life and death of corals. KHD is a piece of test equipment and you just stated you want it to automate alk dosing. I hate to say it but I think you are setting yourself up to fail.

If you are already set up with a GHL doser or some other doser and it has your dosing program in place then leave that in place. Use the KHD to test Alk and make minor corrections. If you see minor corrections being made in a higher than expected frequency then you need to use your head to figure out why this is happening. If it is happening for good reasons, corals are growing and consumption is on the rise then you go to your GHL doser and make a change to your dosing schedule. Mind you, at this point the KHD has kept the Alk in line so you can now make changes to all your balling dosers in equal amounts. The next time the KHD runs a test check and see if it needed to make any corrections. If you correctly calculated the increases needed for your dosing schedule then the KHD will not have to dose anything. Rinse repeat daily. The KHD should NOT be dosing Alk to your tank every day. If so then it means you don't quite understand your tanks consumption and you need to reevaluate the dosing schedule you are on.

 

[Mortie31]

You basically said I was partially correct while reiterating exactly what I said. People (not you) seem to be caught up in the whole dosing part of KHD and don't understand how to use it. It is a test to show where Alk is at. I specifically chose calcium in my example to be anything other than Alk to try and get people back to thinking how they normally would handle a change.

The KHD should not be the "doser" for Alk and I don't believe it was ever intended to suit that purpose. It has the ability to dose to make incremental corrections when the dosing program is falling short, or shooting off the charts. It should be used to notify the reefer that there is a problem and fix make a TEMPORARY fix to mitigate catastrophe. I honestly believe there are going to be people that are going to start complaining that the KHD caused their calcium and magnesium to go off the charts. When we ask what happened they are going to show us that their Alk had dropped by a point and a half and they had the KHD make the correction to the Alk and then programmatically propagated the same "increases" across the other balling doses.[/QUO

I think you miss read what I was saying and several posts that have shown exactly how the doser will work, you can assign several channels to respond to changes in Alk, so you can alter Ca and Mg in line with changes to Alk, and the doser will change baseline dosing quantities if necessary...

 

[Mortie31]

You fall into the second camp and I surely hope you don't end up screwing everything up. You are looking for something to do your job for you and you are picking a piece of equipment designed for one thing and expecting it to perform another. On top of that we are talking life and death of corals. KHD is a piece of test equipment and you just stated you want it to automate alk dosing. I hate to say it but I think you are setting yourself up to fail.

If you are already set up with a GHL doser or some other doser and it has your dosing program in place then leave that in place. Use the KHD to test Alk and make minor corrections. If you see minor corrections being made in a higher than expected frequency then you need to use your head to figure out why this is happening. If it is happening for good reasons, corals are growing and consumption is on the rise then you go to your GHL doser and make a change to your dosing schedule. Mind you, at this point the KHD has kept the Alk in line so you can now make changes to all your balling dosers in equal amounts. The next time the KHD runs a test check and see if it needed to make any corrections. If you correctly calculated the increases needed for your dosing schedule then the KHD will not have to dose anything. Rinse repeat daily. The KHD should NOT be dosing Alk to your tank every day. If so then it means you don't quite understand your tanks consumption and you need to reevaluate the dosing schedule you are on.

I think you have miss read what I was implying and also misses several posts that have shown exactly how the doser will work, you can assign several channels to respond to changes in Alk, so you can alter Ca and Mg in line with changes to Alk, and the doser will change baseline dosing quantities if necessary.

 

[eg8r210]

I couldn't agree more, I will only be using it to monitor until I get a feel for ALK variance, not that I'm predicting much as I add it in 24 doses over the day.
If I understood the Facebook page explanation correctly, if it picks up regular additional dose adjustments it will recalculate your daily dosing to compensate accordingly. But I'm not 100% certain I've interpreted there meaning correctly, but if that's correct then that would be real automation.

This will be amazing, provided all your other balling parameters are following in step. I was talking with a buddy of mine that has always had an amazing acro tank and he told me he struggled with keeping acros for a long time till he got his calcium reactor dialed in and his Alk was rock steady. When I showed him these Alk testers (all the different companies) he laughed and said, well now everyone can been acro reefers.

 

[KJoFan]

You fall into the second camp and I surely hope you don't end up screwing everything up. You are looking for something to do your job for you and you are picking a piece of equipment designed for one thing and expecting it to perform another. On top of that we are talking life and death of corals. KHD is a piece of test equipment and you just stated you want it to automate alk dosing. I hate to say it but I think you are setting yourself up to fail.

If you are already set up with a GHL doser or some other doser and it has your dosing program in place then leave that in place. Use the KHD to test Alk and make minor corrections. If you see minor corrections being made in a higher than expected frequency then you need to use your head to figure out why this is happening. If it is happening for good reasons, corals are growing and consumption is on the rise then you go to your GHL doser and make a change to your dosing schedule. Mind you, at this point the KHD has kept the Alk in line so you can now make changes to all your balling dosers in equal amounts. The next time the KHD runs a test check and see if it needed to make any corrections. If you correctly calculated the increases needed for your dosing schedule then the KHD will not have to dose anything. Rinse repeat daily. The KHD should NOT be dosing Alk to your tank every day. If so then it means you don't quite understand your tanks consumption and you need to reevaluate the dosing schedule you are on.

I haven't even pre-ordered or purchased ANY Alk monitor so...there is that. Simply gathering ALL information I can before I decide to make a purchase. So...let's not get ahead of ourselves and claim disaster and failure for anyone. However, I appreciate your take on this new piece of equipment for our tanks.

Also, anyone that prefaces any statement with things like "i hate to say it" or "no offense" actually means to offend and WANTS to make the statement.

 

[eg8r210]

I think you have miss read what I was implying and also misses several posts that have shown exactly how the doser will work, you can assign several channels to respond to changes in Alk, so you can alter Ca and Mg in line with changes to Alk, and the doser will change baseline dosing quantities if necessary.

I certainly might have missed what you were implying. I definitely have not missed any of the posts you are referring to. I understand how it is going to work and I also understand that most people will be using it incorrectly. My point is that you should NEVER assign any other channels to respond to changes in Alk until you understand why the Alk changed. You don't just blindly raise Ca and Mg because you needed to bring Alk back to level which is what I believe many on this thread will want to do. No one has said they will be testing their Ca and Mg before modifying their dosing schedule so that means they don't know what is happening to the chemistry of their tank.

 

[Mortie31]

We always have these discussions in this hobby whenever new technology is launched, people make statements without reading all the literature available, all posts I've made regarding the director were around its benefit to dosing triton as I stated and you need to understand the triton system as well to comment from an informed perspective.. you dose triton according to KH consumption, and only periodically check Ca and Mg and make adjustments accordingly.

 

[eg8r210]

I haven't even pre-ordered or purchased ANY Alk monitor so...there is that. Simply gathering ALL information I can before I decide to make a purchase. So...let's not get ahead of ourselves and claim disaster and failure for anyone. However, I appreciate your take on this new piece of equipment for our tanks.

Also, anyone that prefaces any statement with things like "i hate to say it" or "no offense" actually means to offend and WANTS to make the statement.

Yes that is probably what we mean but most people need the blow softened a little bit. In the interests of keeping living animals alive I would say "getting ahead of ourselves" is equivalent to being "proactive" which is a good thing 100% of the time. Understanding that just because a tool can be used to do what you want it to do doesn't mean that is the right thing to do right away.

 

[eg8r210]

We always have these discussions in this hobby whenever new technology is launched, people make statements without reading all the literature available, all posts I've made regarding the director were around its benefit to dosing triton as I stated and you need to understand the triton system as well to comment from an informed perspective.. you dose triton according to KH consumption, and only periodically check Ca and Mg and make adjustments accordingly.

And that is great when everything is working correctly. That fails you when there are problems which is what the KHD is supposed to be identifying NOT just following along in the same blue sky mentality.

 

[Mortie31]

And that is great when everything is working correctly. That fails you when there are problems which is what the KHD is supposed to be identifying NOT just following along in the same blue sky mentality.

You may find it hard to believe but we're not all idiots on here.... and don't suffer from blue sky mentality. How many successful reefers do you know that check there Ca and Mg daily? Most don't even weekly... which is the science behind Triton and testing... Ca and Mg levels change far slower than Alk and do not need constant micro management, you get the Alk rock stable (like your friend did!! How often does he test Ca and Mag and ICP test for several other elements) and the other elements balance out accordingly... IMHO these testers/ dosers are the most effective way of doing that for me. The only question for me is; is the added risk of mechanical failure worth the benefit?

 

[eg8r210]

You may find it hard to believe but we're not all idiots on here.... and don't suffer from blue sky mentality. How many successful reefers do you know that check there Ca and Mg daily? Most don't even weekly... which is the science behind Triton and testing... Ca and Mg levels change far slower than Alk and do not need constant micro management, you get the Alk rock stable (like your friend did!! How often does he test Ca and Mag and ICP test for several other elements) and the other elements balance out accordingly... IMHO these testers/ dosers are the most effective way of doing that for me. The only question for me is; is the added risk of mechanical failure worth the benefit?

Nope, not everyone is an idiot, you might find it hard to believe I agree with you. You misinterpreted the blue sky connotation.

 

[KJoFan]

@eg8r210 can you show us where the manufacturer of the KHD or any KH monitor for that matter is advertised/explained to be used in the fashion you insist upon? Is it truly being marketed as an...adjuster of KH?

We all realize you have your belief of how this product is meant to be used, but can you prove that is the actual and only intent of the product?

 

[reefwiser]

Is there any restriction on mounting? Can it be mounted on its side?

One would have to watch how you mounted it other than horizontal as the ph probe is mounted on the side of the unit.

 

[Mortie31]

Nope, not everyone is an idiot, you might find it hard to believe I agree with you. You misinterpreted the blue sky connotation.

Cool.. we both misinterpret lol.... i do think you have a point about just Alk adjusting, if people simply let the Alk monitors/ dosers, do there thing and adjust Alk according to the measurements they take, then problems with imbalance of Ca and Mg could arise if they weren't checked every week or two, especially if several large SPS colonies were growing quickly, so Alk demand was high..you could end up with low Ca and Mg, but tbh if a reefer is that lackadaisical he will end up in trouble anyway machine or no machine, but the following facility of this doser is why it stands out as it should mitigate the differences.

 

[reefwiser]

Man this talk reminds me of 30 years ago an they way people distrusted calcium reactors [emoji3]

 

[Jerel]

For what it's worth.. GHL has already implied that the KH Director will support the Triton method and Balling.

 

[eg8r210]

@eg8r210 can you show us where the manufacturer of the KHD or any KH monitor for that matter is advertised/explained to be used in the fashion you insist upon? Is it truly being marketed as an...adjuster of KH?

We all realize you have your belief of how this product is meant to be used, but can you prove that is the actual and only intent of the product?

I am asking common sense to prevail in the best interests of the animals in your tank. If you may, my insistence is to get you to use it as TEST EQUIPMENT, NOT your hail mary prayer to have a full automatic dosing system capable of keeping all parameters in check.

 

[eg8r210]

Man this talk reminds me of 30 years ago an they way people distrusted calcium reactors [emoji3]

Who is showing distrust in the equipment?

 

[Mortie31]

I am asking common sense to prevail in the best interests of the animals in your tank. If you may, my insistence is to get you to use it as TEST EQUIPMENT, NOT your hail mary prayer to have a full automatic dosing system capable of keeping all parameters in check.

What's happened to you to be so pessimist about this new technology? Are you basing your position on anything factual or is it paranoia? If u have any links to where a KH automatic doser has "killed our animals" could you please post it as I cannot find anything... the crashes caused by faulty heaters, sticking dosing pumps, failed chillers, broken return pumps, leaking tanks in fact just about any hardware we use failing unfortunately number in the thousands, why single this technology out?? It simply doesn't make sense... if you add reefer error to the above list and god only knows how many crashes/ animal losses have been caused...