Lanthanum Drip ROUND 2 fight. lol

[ddc0715]

ok most may remember my first lanthanum drip into a 10-micron sock was a fail. I lost two tangs. here's the thread.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/omg-have-i-killled-my-purple-and-yellow-tang-if-so-how.890745/
ANYWAY I have since revised/ UP'ED my filter sock game. i and others believe that the ten allowed some precip to escape. i made a 4 layer filter sock prototype, lined as follows. i buy micron fabric in bulk, this sock cost me approx 2 bucks and my wife sews them together. custom made to my set up is the bomb.

water into a 50 micron
next into a 10 micron
then into a 5 micron
and last into a 1 micron.

my phos is .27 (test via a hannnah chker)
my LC drip is 5ml of seaklear phos remover mixed with 1200 mls of RODI set to drip at 1drop every 5 seconds.

 

[JumboShrimp]

I don’t think the thread posted; maybe edit it in?

 

[Sean Clark]

Haha that title is too funny. Good luck.

 

[Sean Clark]

Getting crafty with those socks.

What is your end goal for Phosphate? By my calculations for your 185 gallons you only need 2.5ml or 50 drops to get from 0.27 to 0.04, 5ml would strip it all out and possibly leave some LC unbound.

So maybe dose half of it and measure.

 

[ddc0715]

So maybe dose half of it and measure.

this is the way. and is my plan. i started with the 5 ml dose cause I could not find soild math that would help me determine my phos to rodi to phos remover ratio.

my goal is under .1, for now, i have no drop-dead target at the moment. my end game is to determine what i need to hold stable at say .07

 

[Sean Clark]

This is the way.

 

[Sean Clark]

this is the way. and is my plan. i started with the 5 ml dose cause I could not find soild math that would help me determine my phos to rodi to phos remover ratio.

my goal is under .1, for now, i have no drop-dead target at the moment. my end game is to determine what i need to hold stable at say .07

For your 185 gallons and your solution of 5ml Seaklear and 1200ml RODI
450ml should get you from .27 to .1
530ml should get you from .27 to .07

 

[ClimbingAndFishNerd]

Phosphate Rx (Blue Life USA) - 6 drops per 10 gallons lowers your phosphate by .5ppm per day. I also carry 5 micron filter socks to use, but I love your wife's sewing skills! I think Melev's Reef has 5 micron socks available too. Smart to be cautious with those tangs in your aquarium!

 

[ddc0715]

im thinking about selling custom socks. I mean we can sell them for much less than you would buy them at....

 

[ddc0715]

For your 185 gallons and your solution of 5ml Seaklear and 1200ml RODI
450ml should get you from .27 to .1
530ml should get you from .27 to .07

how did you figure this?

 

[Sean Clark]

5ml is 100 drops. 1200ml/100 drops = 12ml per drop of LC solution.

To reduce from .27 to .1 in 185 gallons requires 37.7 drops. 37.7×12ml=452.4ml of solution.
To reduce from .27 to .07 in 185 gallons requires 44.4 drops. 44.4×12ml=532.8ml of solution.

 

[ddc0715]

ok well 450 ml of my solution has mo ed me from .27 to .17, i will leave the sock on and retest in the morning. i can do so math now and dial it in. only unkown is the true volume of rodi. i mean the feeding bad line said 1200 but is it truly 1200 mls. i will probly end up make a little reservoir out of some scap plex

 

[ddc0715]

UNBELIEVABLE..............THIS IS SOME BS. IM DONE WITH LC

dosed a small amount on Monday 450mls over many hours dropped my phos from .27 to .17. no signs of problems.... cool

new 10-5-1 micron stacked filter socks implemented

Monday night auto-feed tank AB+ and oyster feast at 9:30 pm

tested phos Tuesday morning dropped from .17 to .16

dosed 350 mls on Tuesday afternoon over many hours, a smaller amount because I wanted to be cautious

test last night at 6 pm and phos dropped from .16 to .09. ...cool...
no signs of problems.... goal meet---under .1, now im done dosing for a while...life is good. new 10-5-1 micron stacked filter socks were used the entire time.

woke this morning to a dead tomini tang, black mimic tang, and file fish is on the bottom breathing hard. can not see my engineer goby so he's unknown. our yellowtail dasmel asking --- why are my tank mates dropping like flies---- hes still going strong and is now the last man standing.

tested phos this morning expecting a minor drop as i saw on Tuesday morning NOPPPPPPPPPPE ------ levels have risen back up to ..09 from .16 ....overnight.....

im done.. I now have no fish. dosing lc has killed them all. why did my phos rise almost .1 over night

you can say it is not the lc it must be something else ...... and I will tell you NO. dosing SEAKLEAR lc has been the only change to my tank. The fish that have died, all were a few years old. sorry.....just because you did not see the ghost does not mean the person that saw a ghost is lying...

lol. success on your end does not explain the deaths on my end.
i will pay anyone 20 bucks if you can exsplain to me whats going on.. and your unlucky does not count
i have set aside a sample for an ICP test....

 

[arking_mark]

Just my 2 cents, but I'm not a fan of Lanthium Chloride as a tool to fight PO4.

The main reason is that it doesn't solve the problem and comes with higher risks to your tank.

If you have higher PO4 then desired, then you have an input output problem with your nutrients.

So unless you want to continously drip Lanthium Chloride, your #s will just creep up after use.

GFO is safer, and can be used to reduce PO4. Additionally, GFO may be a better approach where you can find the right balance of media for your tank and replace it as needed.

However, the best way to control nutrients, in my opinion, is through a more natural and synergistic approach to nutrient in/out. Optimize the in through food selection and quantity. Maximize the outs through refugium, bacteria, carbon dosing, corals, and optional skimmer. No chemicals required and you're supporting the entire aquarium nutrient ecosystem.

 

[Sean Clark]

Wow, that is terrible. Sorry to hear that. Good call on the ICP; hopefully that will show you how much LC was left unbound.

The overall total amount dosed over the 800mls was approximately 67.4 drops. That "should" be enough to lower 310 gallons from .27 to .09. So for your 185 gallons that would equate to approximately 166% of the required dose for the same reduction.

The math works out pretty close for your solution based on your 450ml=0.1 reduction that the 350ml=0.7 reduction so at least that that part is consistent and makes sense to me.

What doesn't make sense is why you did not see the calculated reduction that should have taken place.

Another thing that I don't understand is how the Phosphate is rising from .09 to .16 so quickly. Where did all of that come from?

Just to confirm this is the product that you are using correct?

 

[ddc0715]

That's the stuff...the labels look a bit diff but thats all. i too wonder where the phos is coming from... i assumed leching but why did it not rise on Monday night? i mean im running a one-micron sock. where does phos come from?

as for phos in levels... not sure.. I rinse my pe mysis and combine it with fish eggs. add vitamins then make 5ml cubes, which i then refreeze cut into 1/2's and feed one a day (2.5 ml). and at night I auto dose ab+ and oyster feast. that's it. for food in. unless I'm sleepwalking and feeding lol.
i have asked this question on brs so not sure when they will post it.

 

[Sean Clark]

I have a theory while shrugging my shoulders at the same time.

Obviously you wouldn't be the best one to ask to test this theory because I am pretty sure that you were KO'ed in the second round. I cannot test it now because I am struggling to keep my phosphates up at the moment. Perhaps someone else will chime in as a volunteer.

As I said earlier, I have always just dropped it in undiluted and even had it on a doser in the past. I also use my standard 100 micron Seachem socks.

A lot of the post that I see of people that have issues with LC or do not see the results that others do also focus hard on the filter socks and attempting to contain the LC within a certain area in an attempt to limit its exposure to their system. From what I have seen this has alot to do with protecting livestock for a lot of people.

My theory is this:

The largest and fastest exposure rate to the most phosphate in the system allows for higher precipitation rates.

This is a situation where you are trying to bind things together. So by limiting the volume of water for the reaction to occur may actually reduce the efficiency of the reaction. This would leave you with an excess of unbound LC "trapped" in the reaction area just waiting for addition phosphate to enter the area and be bound.

Kind of like setting off a small explosion in a contained area vs the same explosion out in wide open spaces. Both have the same energy but a much different result as far as how much area is effected by the blast. If that makes any sense.

By using a "quick and dirty" method you could possibly bind more phosphate and with a larger floculant being formed. The larger precipitate, while clouding the water, may be less harmful to the fish simply by being so large.

Just a theory.

I am curious what others think about this. Maybe I am way off base here.

 

[Mike in CT]

Almost all the problems I see with LC have been when people have been using seaclear or other products not specifically made for being used in a fish tank.
Could there be problems with the quality control of the product that would have no impact on pool chemistry but is deadly in a reef tank? Have also seen a lot of people dose the wrong amounts because of problems with conversions and other math related issues. I dose the blue life LC and found it to be very predictable on how it drops my phosphate and have used it pretty aggressively without any issues. I thought about using the cheaper alternatives but just didn’t trust them enough with them not being made for a reef. Sorry about your fish, always hurts losing animals.

 

[Sean Clark]

Almost all the problems I see with LC have been when people have been using seaclear or other products not specifically made for being used in a fish tank.
Could there be problems with the quality control of the product that would have no impact on pool chemistry but is deadly in a reef tank? Have also seen a lot of people dose the wrong amounts because of problems with conversions and other math related issues. I dose the blue life LC and found it to be very predictable on how it drops my phosphate and have used it pretty aggressively without any issues. I thought about using the cheaper alternatives but just didn’t trust them enough with them not being made for a reef. Sorry about your fish, always hurts losing animals.

While I would generally agree that anecdotal issues tends to be applied to a particular product or brand, I would argue that the "reef safe" versions are produced by the same plants that supplies all of these products and are thus the same quality.

I would trust a large manufacturer over a small manufacturer all day every day when it comes to consistency.

The idea that a small niche market product is similar in pricing but exponentially higher in quality is very much out of line with modern manufacturing.

I do agree that the math is a stumbling point. This could definitely be better. The discribed process could also be better also. But trying to build the best anything alway seams to leave some people wanting. Everyone and their systems are different.

The products are all the same, just at different dilutions.

 

[jassermd]

I feel really bad that you lost all your fish. That's just horrible. So sorry!

My bet is that there is a stark difference in the chemicals used in this formulation as opposed to those that are specifically formulated for reef tanks.
Albeit, LC is LC, but the concentration and any other chemicals used to stabilize the solution or otherwise are likely significantly different. Call me crazy, but that seems to be the only difference here. My bet is that there is a chemical or something that is materially different in the makeup of SeaKlear as opposed to Phosphat-e or other reef safe phosphate removers. It clearly says, pool use... just pointing out the obvious.
I have used Phosphat-e without issue - into filter sock, into skimmer compartment, and even into return chamber - without any ill effects. I have 6 tangs, including a yellow and gem, and they all don't care, one way or another.
That's not saying "it can't happen to you cause it didn't happen to me", it's just calling out that something has got to be different in what you're putting into the tank as opposed to the others that don't seem to have any issues with LC.