Lasses Dream Build

[Lasse]

Thank you everyone

@klp
1) The accepted term for the process where bacteria use nitrate instead for oxygen in metabolism is denitrification (the process you call to denitrate). We are talking about the same thing. I´m aware of that DSB normally are passive but my goal is to build a more effective DSB with more functions.

2) Probably through gravity feed in one of the pipes

3) The main idea is that flow will go from the bottom and up. The main denitrification will take place in the lower part of the DSB – in the plenum or the siporax layer

4) See 1 and 3

Sincerely Lasse

 

[TaylorPilot]

Interesting build. I always enjoy seeing how people create their reefs from other regions of the world. Subscribed.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Hi Lasse, beautiful aquarium and stand. Looks like an intriguing filtration system you plan on experimenting with. I'm sure the plenum will be a powerful denitrifying tool. I've never had an issue keeping nitrates low, it's always phosphate I have to keep down. Often nitrate is in short supply for me. I'm interested to see how your system turns out.

On a side note, any reason why the bulkhead fittings for the plumbing are installed 'backwards' ? Did you place the gasket on the wet side?. I'm sure you have your reason for doing it. I'm just curious because I've been doing tank installations for a while now and always place the gasket and flange on the wetside so I can use a wrench to tighten down the nut. It looks like the way you have it you'd only be able to access the nut by hand. I'm curious as to your reasoning.

Best of luck with the build, it's looking sharp already!

 

[Lasse]

Thank you

The rubber gasket is on the wet side and the nut on the dry side. This is because if you do the opposite you can always risk to have water going down through the threads. Have done such installation also (the nut at the wet side) when there has been no other options and that has been working too – but I prefer the rubber gasket on the wet side and the nut on the dry side. There was a problem to use a wrench - so I grab my silicon tube also

I´m aware of the problems with low nitrate - but there is always KNO3 to use

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Looking forward to learning from all your years of experiance. Very nice start and very thought provoking. The tank construction and stand are very nice! Thanks for sharing your build with us.

 

[Lasse]

Thank you

Provoke is my middle name .........

Sincerely Lasse

 

[rockskimmerflow]

The rubber gasket is on the wet side and the nut on the dry side. This is because if you do the opposite you can always risk to have water going down through the threads. Have done such installation also (the nut at the wet side) when there has been no other options and that has been working too – but I prefer the rubber gasket on the wet side and the nut on the dry side. There was a problem to use a wrench - so I grab my silicon tube also

Ahh sounds good to me. I think the long plastic extension on the flange side of your bulkheads, combined with their hex shaped flange made me think it was the threaded side. Gasket and flange on the wetside is exactly how I would do it, and I don't expect you'll have any leaks to worry about. The picture and style of bulkhead were deceiving to my eyes. Glad to see you won't be at risk for any water seeping through the threads.

I've never had a problem with loss of livestock from lack of nitrate, I've just always found nitrate to be in short supply in a stable system - that is in relation to accumulated phosphate. This is why I haven't seen the need for an anaerobic denitrification filter on any reef systems I've built. The coral and other aerobic life seem to incorporate nitrogen into their tissues as fast as I can feed. I could certainly see the need for a denitrifier on a heavily fed predator tank that lacks sufficient light intensity and biodiversity to drive nitrogen uptake at a rate closely matched to food input. I know anaerobic nitrate processing systems are very effective. I'm curious to see if that will allow you to add more food without worry of nitrate or phosphate spikes, or will you see phosphates spike once the balance of the phosphate binding capacity of your calcium carbonate sand and rock surfaces is exhausted - That is unless you employ other means to directly and separately control phosphate accumulation.

I will certainly follow your progression!

 

[Lasse]

I've never had a problem with loss of livestock from lack of nitrate, I've just always found nitrate to be in short supply in a stable system - that is in relation to accumulated phosphate. This is why I haven't seen the need for an anaerobic denitrification filter on any reef systems I've built. The coral and other aerobic life seem to incorporate nitrogen into their tissues as fast as I can feed. I could certainly see the need for a denitrifier on a heavily fed predator tank that lacks sufficient light intensity and biodiversity to drive nitrogen uptake at a rate closely matched to food input. I know anaerobic nitrate processing systems are very effective. I'm curious to see if that will allow you to add more food without worry of nitrate or phosphate spikes, or will you see phosphates spike once the balance of the phosphate binding capacity of your calcium carbonate sand and rock surfaces is exhausted - That is unless you employ other means to directly and separately control phosphate accumulation.

I will certainly follow your progression!

That´s my general idea too - the nitrogen cycle has a couple of several gas phase - ammonia gas (NH3), nitrogen oxides NOx) and nitrogen (N2) as examples. Further, some macro algae take up very much nitrogen - far above Redfield ratio - therefore in the long run – it will always be a loss of nitrogen compared to the phosphorus that lack a gas phase.

I´m not either worried about nitrate levels (to high) because nitrate is not very toxic for the aquatic life. Too low total nitrogen levels (0) in the water column seems to me more dangerous compared to high levels according to coral growth and health (exception ammonia gas (NH3) which is very toxic – however ammonia ion (NH4) is not toxic). With the word total nitrogen I incorporate NO3, NO2, NH4, amino acids and organic nitrogen (coral food) in this context.

I´m planning two very effective nitrogen “filter” – DSB and macro algae – therefore – a bottle of KNO3 will also be a part of my husbandry.

However a DSB as a phosphorus sink is not tested very much, that´s one of the ideas in my head. In natural sediments – phosphorus bind to the sediment. My goal is to see if I´m able to create a stable biological system and not use a lot of non-biological methods (like GFO). A system that both bind and release nutrients to the water column. But I build the system in order to not exclude any possibilities of management.

The load of this tank will not be too high – I´m not planning any larger fishes than 4-6 cm and I will try to do not hear my wife´s wish of a yellow tang. To withstand that wish will be the toughest task of all – and I´m not sure I´ll win that fight


Sincerely Lasse

 

[rockskimmerflow]

That´s my general idea too - the nitrogen cycle has a couple of several gas phase - ammonia gas (NH3), nitrogen oxides NOx) and nitrogen (N2) as examples. Further, some macro algae take up very much nitrogen - far above Redfield ratio - therefore in the long run – it will always be a loss of nitrogen compared to the phosphorus that lack a gas phase.

I´m not either worried about nitrate levels (to high) because nitrate is not very toxic for the aquatic life. Too low total nitrogen levels (0) in the water column seems to me more dangerous compared to high levels according to coral growth and health (exception ammonia gas (NH3) which is very toxic – however ammonia ion (NH4) is not toxic). With the word total nitrogen I incorporate NO3, NO2, NH4, amino acids and organic nitrogen (coral food) in this context.

I´m planning two very effective nitrogen “filter” – DSB and macro algae – therefore – a bottle of KNO3 will also be a part of my husbandry.

However a DSB as a phosphorus sink is not tested very much, that´s one of the ideas in my head. In natural sediments – phosphorus bind to the sediment. My goal is to see if I´m able to create a stable biological system and not use a lot of non-biological methods (like GFO). A system that both bind and release nutrients to the water column. But I build the system in order to not exclude any possibilities of management.

The load of this tank will not be too high – I´m not planning any larger fishes than 4-6 cm and I will try to do not hear my wife´s wish of a yellow tang. To withstand that wish will be the toughest task of all – and I´m not sure I´ll win that fight


Sincerely Lasse

I definitely agree with your assessment of the typical nitrogen pathway within an aquarium. If you are planning on using external addition of pure potassium nitrate solution to influence the ratio, wouldn't the most simple and controllable method involve no deep sand bed? -Just an efficient filter housing lots of nitrifying bacteria?

I would bet you could drive increased phosphorous uptake by life forms simply by adding extra nitrate until you find the balance between feeding, supplemental nitrate, and phosphate level within aquarium water. To me the deep sand bed would be a confounding system given it's unpredictable and potentially fluctuating rate of nitrate off gassing. If I were to test a balanced nutrient supplementation system to avoid using phosphate removal media, I would definitely elect to use a large air driven sponge or fluidized sand filter. Both are efficient aerobic filters and will process foods into nitrate rapidly without denitrifying to any degree. This would give you a more stable baseline upon which to adjust your need for potassium nitrate dosage.

Again, I'm curious to the thought process behind the incorporation of a denitrification filter in a system you plan on dosing nitrate into. I'm sure you'll see success once it's all dialed in, I just wonder if you'll be fighting yourself along the way. I have no doubt the dsb and macroalgae with be a superb habitat for microfauna. This is undoubtedly a benefit to such a filter system vs more sterile fluidized or sponge based solutions.

Cheers! And thank you for the detailed explanations.

 

[Lasse]

First of all – this is a large experiment – not an invitation to do like this and you will end up in heaven

I´m planning to test some ideas and therefore I construct the system in a way that I can have different options. I´m planning to have a tiny flow through the bed for different reasons – denitrification is one but maybe not the most important. In the beginning I probably do not see any denitrification – I calculate with a start phase for at least 3 months. I will have the option to add a fast carbon source but I´m not sure I will use it. I can also stop the flow under the bed if I want and use the bed as a passive DSB. The KNO3 bottle is plan B or C. I will also make it possible to manage when the flow through the bed will take place in order not to put both pedals to the metal at the same time.

I´m going to use a skimmer in the beginning because I have not any other way to manage gas exchange for the moment. A trickle filter (one of the fastest nitrification filters and a good gas exchanger) was on the drawing board but for the moment it have to wait a while. But deep in my soul – I want to have a tank without a skimmer

Again, I'm curious to the thought process behind the incorporation of a denitrification filter in a system you plan on dosing nitrate into

I´m not really planning to add KNO3 but you highlight weak points in the thinking (that I am also was aware of) so I need to have a solution if it goes that way. I´m not in the first hand interested of the denitrification in the DSB – I´m interested if I can have other benefits with it but I have to accept that it will be a denitrification if I want an anaerobe zoon in my aquarium in spite if I want it or not.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[rockskimmerflow]

First of all – this is a large experiment – not an invitation to do like this and you will end up in heaven

I´m planning to test some ideas and therefore I construct the system in a way that I can have different options. I´m planning to have a tiny flow through the bed for different reasons – denitrification is one but maybe not the most important. In the beginning I probably do not see any denitrification – I calculate with a start phase for at least 3 months. I will have the option to add a fast carbon source but I´m not sure I will use it. I can also stop the flow under the bed if I want and use the bed as a passive DSB. The KNO3 bottle is plan B or C. I will also make it possible to manage when the flow through the bed will take place in order not to put both pedals to the metal at the same time.

I´m going to use a skimmer in the beginning because I have not any other way to manage gas exchange for the moment. A trickle filter (one of the fastest nitrification filters and a good gas exchanger) was on the drawing board but for the moment it have to wait a while. But deep in my soul – I want to have a tank without a skimmer

I´m not really planning to add KNO3 but you highlight weak points in the thinking (that I am also was aware of) so I need to have a solution if it goes that way. I´m not in the first hand interested of the denitrification in the DSB – I´m interested if I can have other benefits with it but I have to accept that it will be a denitrification if I want an anaerobe zoon in my aquarium in spite if I want it or not.

Sincerely Lasse

Ahh I see. The denitrification is not the goal, but is an unfortunate and likely byproduct of incorporating the deep sand bed- which you want to include for other aspects of the multi faceted experiments you are conducting with this tank build. I think I have a clearer picture of your vision for the tank now.

Thank you for your patience with my questions!

P.S. I love having no skimmers in my tanks. All my personal systems have no skimmers and generally thrive in their absence. I only add skimmers to the tanks I design and maintain for clients because they will be feeding the tanks and I cannot control their feeding/consistency to as detailed an extent as with my personal aquariums. I don't think skimmers hurt, but I view them mainly as gas exchange mechanisms and overfeeding 'insurance' in most tanks

 

[Lasse]

P.S. I love having no skimmers in my tanks. All my personal systems have no skimmers and generally thrive in their absence. I only add skimmers to the tanks I design and maintain for clients because they will be feeding the tanks and I cannot control their feeding/consistency to as detailed an extent as with my personal aquariums. I don't think skimmers hurt, but I view them mainly as gas exchange mechanisms and overfeeding 'insurance' in most tanks

Soulmates across the Atlantic

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Aussie paul]

Looking very good Lasse can't wait to see more

 

[d2mini]

Lasse, this is awesome! I can't wait to see how things progress. I'll be watching closely.

 

[Lasse]

@Aussie paul , @d2mini

Thank you - it will be more - probably i will do a leak test this evening (local time).

Sincerely Lasse

 

[nitro]

I love it, very interesting.....
Nitro

 

[Lasse]

Leak test done - no leak. Capacity test – the system manage a turnover of 4000 l/h with no problem. Function test – work well and very silent. Power Cut test – ok but with a remark. The outlet from the return pump must be reconstructed because I get a siphon effect which lower the surface with 1 cm more than necessary, and fill up the sump a little too much. 1 cm in the DT is around 8 litre and respond to 4 cm in the sump.


Pictures

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Gino]

Really interesting project, specifically with the aproach to manege the nitrates and phosphate. By the way the carbon sources you are planning is the skimmer residues? Or I miss understand?

Definitely I will follow your progress. And welcome to the community.
Sincerely Gino

 

[Lasse]

Really interesting project, specifically with the aproach to manege the nitrates and phosphate. By the way the carbon sources you are planning is the skimmer residues? Or I miss understand?

No - you did not - its one of my ideas - maybe not for the carbon i first place but for it is a concentrated bacteria solution so I will have a lot of bacteria junk down in the DSB in a short time. And without bacteria junk - nothing will happen I have experiences with systems that fix their own sources of fast organic carbons internally and thats my goal to etablish this in my DSB also. If it is a bright idea or not - I have no idea

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Gino]

No - you did not - its one of my ideas - maybe not for the carbon i first place but for it is a concentrated bacteria solution so I will have a lot of bacteria junk down in the DSB in a short time. And without bacteria junk - nothing will happen I have experiences with systems that fix their own sources of fast organic carbons internally and thats my goal to etablish this in my DSB also. If it is a bright idea or not - I have no idea

Sincerely Lasse

Actually it's not a bad idea. It's like many systems out there that doesn't use protein skimmer, to keep a load of junk at the DSB for the bacteria to thrive. But by other side your parameters will be wild until it get well establish. But I like the idea.