LEDs. Forever controversial?

TheEngineer

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What is it going to take for people to accept LEDs? They clearly work. They clearly work well. Some coral farms are using them exclusively. There has yet to be anything other than anecdotal "<This> works better than LEDs, trust me" and people seem to agree with it!

I'm so tired of getting into all of these threads where people clearly don't understand the lights and don't understand even the basics of photosynthesis. When will it end!?
 

jsker

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That's why another R2R member and I are going to do a comparison Thread. Stay tuned.
 
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TheEngineer

TheEngineer

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That's why another R2R member and I are going to do a comparison Thread. Stay tuned.
Awesome! I can't wait. There have been a few in the past, but they don't seem to have convinced the naysayers.

Because there will always be those that stick to older tech. No matter what you do to prove the new tech is good.
True. There seems to be so much more than that going on though.
 

cb684

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What is it going to take for people to accept LEDs? They clearly work. They clearly work well. Some coral farms are using them exclusively. There has yet to be anything other than anecdotal "<This> works better than LEDs, trust me" and people seem to agree with it!

I'm so tired of getting into all of these threads where people clearly don't understand the lights and don't understand even the basics of photosynthesis. When will it end!?

I see differences in the growth (total growth and growth pattern), and color of my corals that were grown with LEDs (Radion, Gen 3, all blues, 30% white, 17% reds and green), wen compared to growth and color of the corals under my T5s (ATI 8x54w, 4b+, 2c+, 1E5 blue pop, 1actinic), when using similar PAR.

So it is not that LEDs do not work. But I believe that is different, and I personally prefer the colors and growth of corals under my T5s (the colors are better IMO if growth under T5 and displayed under LEDs 440-490).

This discussion is relevant but LEDs and T5s are a technology, when saying they work or they do not work, more detail needs to be given. Also I am not saying that LEDs will not grow or color corals. They will and that is a fact.
 
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JMacedo

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IMHO LEDs are not very well understood yet, I see some people using settings that give "pop" and a "cool look" to the tank instead of doing some research about what their corals needs are in terms of light intensity and light spectrum. Also just because some light modules can spread light over an area over a 36" x 36" inch at 24" deep that does not mean they can cover the same area in the middle or near the top. More modules are needed and that can be quite expensive.

And not all LEDs are made equal! Just my two cents. :)
 

McMullen

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People post with questions daily regarding LEDs. There seems to be more failure and frustration compared to other light sources. My observation, most people don't understand the point source and spread. T5 and MH for the most part are simple, hang light, plug in, grow coral. LED takes finness and fine tuning. I've used all three light sources, still using LED for my SPS dominant tank, and none are best. I am getting just as much growth with mine as I did with my 400watt MH too, but my Lux meter reads just over 80,000 with my LED. I think many people, if they check, are running much lower.
 

cb684

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People post with questions daily regarding LEDs. There seems to be more failure and frustration compared to other light sources. My observation, most people don't understand the point source and spread. T5 and MH for the most part are simple, hang light, plug in, grow coral. LED takes finness and fine tuning. I've used all three light sources, still using LED for my SPS dominant tank, and none are best. I am getting just as much growth with mine as I did with my 400watt MH too, but my Lux meter reads just over 80,000 with my LED. I think many people, if they check, are running much lower.
Although this is a true statement there are plenty knowledgeable reefers that understand those facts, have tried and wanted to have LEDs working for them and decided to continue with other light sources. IMO lack of knowledge or being afraid of new technologies are not the only reason for not using LEDs.
 

McMullen

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Although this is a true statement there are plenty knowledgeable reefers that understand those facts, have tried and wanted to have LEDs working for them and decided to continue with other light sources. IMO lack of knowledge or being afraid of new technologies are not the only reason for not using LEDs.

Agreed! Many of the daily posts are from people that are trying them for the first time, or bought a setup that included LED and having trouble. I think for me, I want to dial in the channels based on what my eyes find appealing, both brightness and color, but this was a mistake. I also find it difficult to balance SPS and LPS……it seems something isn't quite happy. Please know that I am not implying if someone tried LED and switched that I think they didn't understand the tech. I think the OP is frustrated with LED naysayers, and I do think that comes from a misunderstanding of things like tech, spectrum, intensity, etc, etc.
 

LostInTheDark

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I used Leds for several years. Started with Power Compacts and moved up from there. My issue was the quality of the units themselves. I started with the Ebay black boxes and they grew coral excellent. I upgraded to the Ocean Revive and they started out fantastic. Great growth and color. I was giving frags away monthly and the "pop" was amazing. I didn't know it at the time but the spectrum and par from the lights were changing rapidly and eventually they could no longer support SPS. It took me almost a year and a tank full of SPS to figure out it was the lights. OR sent me replacements and growth took off again. A year later the same issue cropped up but I was able to recognize it and fix the lights myself. I now run T5s. To me changing bulbs once a year to guarantee par and spectrum is a lot cheaper then loosing a tank full of coral. I realize the quality lights don't seem to have this issue but $2,200 to light a tank is not a reality for me. I am a little gun shy spending that much money only to have the same issues or watch the technology change and be outdated within a year.
 

McMullen

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I used Leds for several years. Started with Power Compacts and moved up from there. My issue was the quality of the units themselves. I started with the Ebay black boxes and they grew coral excellent. I upgraded to the Ocean Revive and they started out fantastic. Great growth and color. I was giving frags away monthly and the "pop" was amazing. I didn't know it at the time but the spectrum and par from the lights were changing rapidly and eventually they could no longer support SPS. It took me almost a year and a tank full of SPS to figure out it was the lights. OR sent me replacements and growth took off again. A year later the same issue cropped up but I was able to recognize it and fix the lights myself. I now run T5s. To me changing bulbs once a year to guarantee par and spectrum is a lot cheaper then loosing a tank full of coral. I realize the quality lights don't seem to have this issue but $2,200 to light a tank is not a reality for me. I am a little gun shy spending that much money only to have the same issues or watch the technology change and be outdated within a year.

I'm glad you brought this up! I really think companies are grossly exaggerating the longevity of their products. Same problem with OR for me as well. And the name brands are too expensive and IMO don't look as good as some of the black boxes.
 

jsker

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Awesome! I can't wait. There have been a few in the past, but they don't seem to have convinced the naysayers.


The odd thing about our experiment, we both have the same tank. Yes we both are doing a couple of things different.
 

john.m.cole3

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Hey @jsker and good morning!

We are planning on doing the LED and T5 comparison thread real soon (maybe starting this weekend). Most importantly, this will not be an arguement, but a friendly comparison of lighting choices. @jsker and I have both been in the hobby for 14 months, we own the same size tank (72 gal bowfront), and have just switched from Marine Orbit LEDs to our new and upgraded light fixtures.

I personally don't want to "dial in" my lights, so I went with T5.
Not sure of @jsker reason, but it should be a fun thread.
 

cb684

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Hey @jsker and good morning!

We are planning on doing the LED and T5 comparison thread real soon (maybe starting this weekend). Most importantly, this will not be an arguement, but a friendly comparison of lighting choices. @jsker and I have both been in the hobby for 14 months, we own the same size tank (72 gal bowfront), and have just switched from Marine Orbit LEDs to our new and upgraded light fixtures.

I personally don't want to "dial in" my lights, so I went with T5.
Not sure of @jsker reason, but it should be a fun thread.

I do not want to sound too critical, but I likely will. Doing the comparison using two different systems will not work. I have an ongoing comparison in the same system. Two display tanks, same sump (so same water parameters). Radion gen 3 on one display tank, and ATI T5s on the other, and a few duplicated corals in both tanks. But, even in a situation like this is very hard to reach conclusions. Two many variables: coral placement, PAR reading comparison (comparing readings of LEDs and T5s is not straight forward), water flow, different clean up crew, neighbor corals are different... Even in the same tank, is not infrequent that same corals with different placement look very different in colors (and grow differently too).

The comparison gets more complicated when trying to access the ability of those lights to support health of different types of corals including different SPS, LPS and soft corals. Impressions are biased, even more with time as we naturally select what corals are thriving in our tanks. We kill some, and some thrive and after a while, we only have thriving corals in our systems and conclude that the system make corals thrive (forgetting that it also kills corals). Some people that will not accept not being able to keep a certain type of coral and keep trying, know what I am talking about. I bought online rouge mili frags twice from the same vendor and both died within weeks. All other corals thrived and I have several milies growing well, but for some reason could not keep rouge millie twice. It might be a coral incompatibility with my water conditions, my light conditions, my dipping procedures, or that this vendor's rouge mili was not doing well to begin with (it is so hard to put a finger on what is the problem sometimes). My point is, I will buy it again from another vendor, but at this point I know my system works great and grow corals well, but not all corals.

Any ways, just a few mildly haphazard thoughts...

CB
 

john.m.cole3

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I do not want to sound too critical, but I likely will. Doing the comparison using two different systems will not work. I have an ongoing comparison in the same system. Two display tanks, same sump (so same water parameters). Radion gen 3 on one display tank, and ATI T5s on the other, and a few duplicated corals in both tanks. But, even in a situation like this is very hard to reach conclusions. Two many variables: coral placement, PAR reading comparison (comparing readings of LEDs and T5s is not straight forward), water flow, different clean up crew, neighbor corals are different... Even in the same tank, is not infrequent that same corals with different placement look very different in colors (and grow differently too).

The comparison gets more complicated when trying to access the ability of those lights to support health of different types of corals including different SPS, LPS and soft corals. Impressions are biased, even more with time as we naturally select what corals are thriving in our tanks. We kill some, and some thrive and after a while, we only have thriving corals in our systems and conclude that the system make corals thrive (forgetting that it also kills corals). Some people that will not accept not being able to keep a certain type of coral and keep trying, know what I am talking about. I bought online rouge mili frags twice from the same vendor and both died within weeks. All other corals thrived and I have several milies growing well, but for some reason could not keep rouge millie twice. It might be a coral incompatibility with my water conditions, my light conditions, my dipping procedures, or that this vendor's rouge mili was not doing well to begin with (it is so hard to put a finger on what is the problem sometimes). My point is, I will buy it again from another vendor, but at this point I know my system works great and grow corals well, but not all corals.

Any ways, just a few mildly haphazard thoughts...

CB
All very good points mentioned above.

I like Vivid Aquariums 800 gal half MH, half LED tank, and I think that tank is a GREAT example of comparing 2 different lighting systems. I personally can't tell which side is which until they unveil it.

Anyhoo, good luck on your next rouge millie venture. Now I have to look up this specimen, b/c it must be nice if you are ready to try it again!
 

jsker

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Want a case study on LED's versus the other guys? Can't get anymore in depth then what EcoTech Marine has done with their Coral Lab, a case study in exceptional reef keeping using LED's.
http://ecotechmarine.com/news/ecotech-marine-launches-coral-lab
The study done by a company and not a couple of plain ol simple reefer like @john.m.cole3 and myself, just doing a simple none debate thread just with a comparison with basically the same tank and setups of the differences.
 

cb684

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Want a case study on LED's versus the other guys? Can't get anymore in depth then what EcoTech Marine has done with their Coral Lab, a case study in exceptional reef keeping using LED's.
http://ecotechmarine.com/news/ecotech-marine-launches-coral-lab

I don't agree. Yes, its possible to get a lot more in depth than that study. And even if it was a well controlled study, with enough repetition, and measurements that were statistical relevant (which I do not believe it is) I would have difficulty in accepting without knowing that there was not a conflict of interest.

Now, let me step back a little and make it clear. Do I think it is important to have a rigorous study on those? No I do not. I really like my Radions g3. They are on my tanks and will continue there. I love to have the control, and I do think I found the sweet spot to get coral growth. Colors under all blues look great!

PS- Anybody knows why my ponape seriatopora is growing towards the bottom of the tank, or why some other SPS will not grow towards the lights? That is in the Radion g3 display tank...

IMG_1500.jpg
 
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