Lets chat heater redundancy with controllers

[Jstn]

So first off I live in Minnesota, it gets (stupid) cold, I have been running two Finnex titanium 500w heaters with two EB832 (one in each EB) for my 140 gal system for the past 6 months without issue. I use a temp probe in my sump with one heater is a primary (on at 77.9 off at 78.1) the other is a fallback, (on at 77.5 of at 78.1). I watched a few videos recently (BRS and Neptunes) that mention a titanium heater needs a second fail safe such as a temp controller between the apex and heater, making it more like a conventional heater, which i understand. I previously ran ehiems and the only reason to get away from them is i can't fit 2 250w (4 for redundancy) in my sump, as many of your are aware the ehiems are giants compared to the other options.

Now, after looking at inkbird, JBJ and a few other temp controllers, they all seem to be flawed with a decent amount of issues after reading the reviews. The JBJ temp sensor goes bad and reads off, the inkbird one cannot calibrate. So in my opinion this option would be introducing more error instead of helping. Not to mention they are 40-100 bucks each (80-200 for my pair).

So i wonder what others have done in a similar situation, I was debating on just getting a PM1 and adding an additional temp sensor in the DT, since neptune temp sensors have been very robust for me in the past 5-6 years of using them along with it would be 120 with the probe.

 

[Brew12]

So first off I live in Minnesota, it gets (stupid) cold, I have been running two Finnex titanium 500w heaters with two EB832 (one in each EB) for my 140 gal system for the past 6 months without issue. I use a temp probe in my sump with one heater is a primary (on at 77.9 off at 78.1) the other is a fallback, (on at 77.5 of at 78.1). I watched a few videos recently (BRS and Neptunes) that mention a titanium heater needs a second fail safe such as a temp controller between the apex and heater, making it more like a conventional heater, which i understand. I previously ran ehiems and the only reason to get away from them is i can't fit 2 250w (4 for redundancy) in my sump, as many of your are aware the ehiems are giants compared to the other options.

Now, after looking at inkbird, JBJ and a few other temp controllers, they all seem to be flawed with a decent amount of issues after reading the reviews. The JBJ temp sensor goes bad and reads off, the inkbird one cannot calibrate. So in my opinion this option would be introducing more error instead of helping. Not to mention they are 40-100 bucks each (80-200 for my pair).

So i wonder what others have done in a similar situation, I was debating on just getting a PM1 and adding an additional temp sensor in the DT, since neptune temp sensors have been very robust for me in the past 5-6 years of using them along with it would be 120 with the probe.

I run two temperature sensors in my sump and if either gets above 81F they shut off my return pump and send me an alert. I don't use an Apex so there might be a better way to do it with your system. I would much rather cook my sump than my DT.

 

[dantimdad]

The reason folks can't keep the inkbird calibrated is the sensors were never meant for saltwater.

You have to seal the sensor with clear pvc heatshrink.

Same goes for other heater controllers as well.

Check out the Ranco website they even sell it as a "temperature well"

I bought the heat shrink from them.

 

[dantimdad]

I meant probe. Not sensor.

 

[Jstn]

The reason folks can't keep the inkbird calibrated is the sensors were never meant for saltwater.

You have to seal the sensor with clear pvc heatshrink.

Same goes for other heater controllers as well.

Check out the Ranco website they even sell it as a "temperature well"

I bought the heat shrink from them.

Interesting, so hypothetically sealing (Porto g) of these sensors is the weak link, makes sense JBJ users mention changing the sensor which seems to align with your statement.

But still with all of that makes really wonder if these external controllers are indeed safer than just a titanium heater with the apex...

 

[MnFish1]

I run two temperature sensors in my sump and if either gets above 81F they shut off my return pump and send me an alert. I don't use an Apex so there might be a better way to do it with your system. I would much rather cook my sump than my DT.

Curious - why not just shut off the heater rather then your return?

 

[dantimdad]

Interesting, so hypothetically sealing (Porto g) of these sensors is the weak link, makes sense JBJ users mention changing the sensor which seems to align with your statement.

But still with all of that makes really wonder if these external controllers are indeed safer than just a titanium heater with the apex...

I had one apex and it tanked and killed everything. It allowed a heater to run to 90+.

I am not sure either one is any better but, I have never had a standalone heater controller fail.

Just my .02

 

[dantimdad]

Curious - why not just shut off the heater rather then your return?

Double fail safe. If you shut off the pump and the heater, even if the controller fails to stop the heater or the heater leaks something nasty, it's isolated from the livestock.

It's pure genius if you ask me.

 

[MnFish1]

Double fail safe. If you shut off the pump and the heater, even if the controller fails to stop the heater or the heater leaks something nasty, it's isolated from the livestock.

It's pure genius if you ask me.

Except when you're out of town and your return isn't working - or you're at work for 12 hours and your return isnt working. Just not sure why not to power down the heater - why would a heater 'leak something' - (or do you mean a glass heater that might have broken?). I have a heater with an independent control - lets say I set it at 81 max. If my apex is set at '80' and it fails somehow - the max it will go up to is 81. But in the meantime the return, etc is still working.

 

[Brew12]

Curious - why not just shut off the heater rather then your return?

It's a failsafe in case the controller outlet fails on.

 

[Brew12]

Except when you're out of town and your return isn't working - or you're at work for 12 hours and your return isnt working. Just not sure why not to power down the heater - why would a heater 'leak something' - (or do you mean a glass heater that might have broken?). I have a heater with an independent control - lets say I set it at 81 max. If my apex is set at '80' and it fails somehow - the max it will go up to is 81. But in the meantime the return, etc is still working.

My tank will be just fine for 12 hours without the return running. Less than idea, but everything should survive. And, since I get an email notification, I can either go home to fix it or ask someone to help. Same as if I'm on vacation. I can walk my tank sitter through unplugging the heater causing the problem (current monitored ports) and then restore flow.
My primary heater should be turned off by the controller at 78.3F and my backup heater should turn off at 77.3F. If the temp probe that controls my heaters fails low, or the outlet fails to deenergize, my return pump is a last ditch response to keep from cooking my tank.

 

[dantimdad]

My tank will be just fine for 12 hours without the return running. Less than idea, but everything should survive. And, since I get an email notification, I can either go home to fix it or ask someone to help. Same as if I'm on vacation. I can walk my tank sitter through unplugging the heater causing the problem (current monitored ports) and then restore flow.
My primary heater should be turned off by the controller at 78.3F and my backup heater should turn off at 77.3F. If the temp probe that controls my heaters fails low, or the outlet fails to deenergize, my return pump is a last ditch response to keep from cooking my tank.

Like I said: GENIUS! (and I don't even like controllers) :)

 

[Brew12]

Like I said: GENIUS! (and I don't even like controllers) :)

Thanks!

 

[fernalfer]

So i have 2 Finnex Titanium 300 watt heaters with the temp probe inside the actually heater end. It has a controller with it to set when the heater should turn off. It is this one: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/finnex-hmo-heater-w-digital-led-controller.html

now i want redundancy too, but can someone lead me in the right direction on what i should add to these heaters to do so? This topic is confusing me.

 

[MnFish1]

It's a failsafe in case the controller outlet fails on.

Why would that happen

 

[dantimdad]

Why would that happen

Anything can happen

That sounds flippant but it's not. There are so many things that can happen why not mitigate the ones we can?

 

[MnFish1]

My tank will be just fine for 12 hours without the return running. Less than idea, but everything should survive. And, since I get an email notification, I can either go home to fix it or ask someone to help. Same as if I'm on vacation. I can walk my tank sitter through unplugging the heater causing the problem (current monitored ports) and then restore flow.
My primary heater should be turned off by the controller at 78.3F and my backup heater should turn off at 77.3F. If the temp probe that controls my heaters fails low, or the outlet fails to deenergize, my return pump is a last ditch response to keep from cooking my tank.

Mine would not be - how is yours. This is just curiosity not a critique

 

[Brew12]

Why would that happen

Not sure. Could be caused by a failure of the gating voltage for a solid state relay or sticking contacts in a mechanical relay. I haven't had one fail yet, but that doesn't mean it can't.

 

[Brew12]

Mine would not be - how is yours. This is just curiosity not a critique

I have my power heads that provide plenty of flow and air exchange. I keep my house at around 72F during the day so my DT would stay above that temperature. Not ideal, but should not be harmful.

 

[MnFish1]

Anything can happen

That sounds flippant but it's not. There are so many things that can happen why not mitigate the ones we can?

Because this only mitigates one thing that could happen. There are hundreds of examples of how this is a mistake.