Lets chat heater redundancy with controllers

[MnFish1]

Anything can happen

That sounds flippant but it's not. There are so many things that can happen why not mitigate the ones we can?

Oh - sorry I dont think this mitigates anything. (or if it does - it ignores another potential problem)

 

[MnFish1]

I have my power heads that provide plenty of flow and air exchange. I keep my house at around 72F during the day so my DT would stay above that temperature. Not ideal, but should not be harmful.

But to generalize that concept - without explaining your situation =sorry not everyone lives in those climates - though at this point I wish I did lol:)

 

[dantimdad]

Oh - sorry I dont think this mitigates anything. (or if it does - it ignores another potential problem)

Well in all honesty nothing will completely mitigate a problem unless we sit in a chair and watch 24-7.

The proper word would be minimize

But I am not a controller guy. I have had them fail. Others believe and rely on them.

 

[Brew12]

But to generalize that concept - without explaining your situation =sorry not everyone lives in those climates - though at this point I wish I did lol:)

We had record highs today. It was nice being outside in 77F degree weather. Unfortunately, highs in the 40's tomorrow. Was nice while it lasted.

I don't expect my heater failsafe to ever come into play. It took less than 10 minutes to program and cost nothing extra. I wouldn't even go so far as to recommend others to take this step because it is a very unlikely scenario. But, since the OP asked, I offered what I did. Would I have spent money to provide this kind of backup? Probably not.

 

[Brew12]

But I am not a controller guy.

You need to embrace your inner geek! :p

 

[MnFish1]

We had record highs today. It was nice being outside in 77F degree weather. Unfortunately, highs in the 40's tomorrow. Was nice while it lasted.

I don't expect my heater failsafe to ever come into play. It took less than 10 minutes to program and cost nothing extra. I wouldn't even go so far as to recommend others to take this step because it is a very unlikely scenario. But, since the OP asked, I offered what I did. Would I have spent money to provide this kind of backup? Probably not.

Awesome - understood - In my tank shutting the return off would be a mess... thats why I wondered:)

 

[Hemmdog]

Well in all honesty nothing will completely mitigate a problem unless we sit in a chair and watch 24-7.

The proper word would be minimize

But I am not a controller guy. I have had them fail. Others believe and rely on them.

Which ranco Or heater probe and controller would you recommend? I need to plug 3 heaters in.

 

[Gablami]

I have the dual one, and have not heard of one controller three heaters independently. You can always get a splitter and split one outlet to two heaters.

To answer the OP question, I have two heaters on a dual ranco, on an apex outlet with two apex temp probes (one in the sump and one in the overflow).

 

[Hemmdog]

I have the dual one, and have not heard of one controller three heaters independently. You can always get a splitter and split one outlet to two heaters.

Maybe it’s time to upgrade the jagers to some finnex. I think I would probably be fine with 2 300watts. Finnex is the best right?

 

[Gablami]

Which ranco Or heater probe and controller would you recommend? I need to plug 3 heaters in.

Not sure how large these heaters are, but ranco can only support 9.8A max.

 

[Gablami]

Maybe it’s time to upgrade the jagers to some finnex. I think I would probably be fine with 2 300watts. Finnex is the best right?

I have finnex titanium without internal temp controller. Very simple and should last a long time (like the ranco). I started with neotherms but soured on them as I had a few problems with them dying early and another leaked voltage.

 

[Hemmdog]

I have finnex titanium without internal temp controller. Very simple and should last a long time (like the ranco). I started with neotherms but soured on them as I had a few problems with them dying early and another leaked voltage.

Perfect. If it’s not to much trouble could you link the ranco you recommend? There’s several different ones when I looked in the past, and sort of got confused and gave up lol.

Preferably one with a probe. I don’t have apex.

 

[Emerson]

I just went through this thought process after watching a BRS Live discussion where they mentioned Neptune doesn't recommend you ever plug an uncontrolled titanium heater directly in to the Apex.

I have a 90 gal with two Finnex 300w heaters, a primary and a back up. I had the primary hooked up directly to the Apex EB832, and the back up to a second EB832 through an Inkbird ITC-308. This setup has done fine for two years. The flaw in my rig was if the Apex temp probe failed or the relay controlling the heater outlet stuck "ON" on the primary, I could have cooked my tank. A tank can recover from colder temps, say 68, much better than hotter, say 90+. Also, one failed "ON" heater will get you overheated potentially killing your tank, where one failed "OFF" will just go to your backup.

for overheat protection and redundancy, I put a second controller on the primary heater, an Inkbird ITC -306T ($30 on Amazon). It's probably better suited for my heater only application and a few dollars less than the ITC-308 which is set up for a heater and chiller.

The minimum temp swing on the Inkbirds is 1 deg F, not near the 1/10th ° fidelity of the Apex. I got around it it by setting the Inkbird at 80 deg with a 2 deg swing. This means the Inkbird will power on it's outlet(s) at 78°, off at 80° I have my Apex set to power the outlet at 77.5° off at 78°. So... the outlet powers on at 77.5°, the Inkbird sensing the temp below 78° allows the heater to power up and draw power through the Inkbird outlet. It will now warm the tank to 78°, then Apex shuts off the EB832 outlet until the temp drops to 77.5° and continues that loop until the the heater is no longer needed (Summer), and protects against high temperature. With a separate (and calibrating probe) the Inkbird will power off at 80° should the Apex temp probe fail, or the outlet relay on the EB832 stick "ON". I have the backup set the same, but "ON" at a degree lower with a notification to let me know if it ever draws power, telling me the primary heater is failing/ has failed.

I'm sure it's not the only option, maybe not even the best option, but in my Apex setup, for $30 I now have redundant overheat protection on both heaters.

 

[Gablami]

I have this ranco. It’s a bit more expensive because of the NEMA 4 enclosure, which is supposed to be more “water proof” enclosure, but I’m not sure you need it.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/product/~product_id=ETC-241000-000

This is the nema 1 enclosure which is a bit cheaper.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Ranco-E...e-Temperature-Control-w-Sensor-120-240V-Input

It may seem complicated to wire, but there are lots of videos tutorials online. Mostly by people who brew beer :).

I’ve owned both ranco and inkbird, and it’s a different level of quality and longevity. You should get shrink wrap or make a waterproof well for the ranco temp probe. It is technically not waterproof, but I hear some have used it fine for a long time without issues.

 

[Gablami]

The only thing I don’t like about the ranco, is it is not sensitive to fractions of a Fahrenheit degree. Ex. It will turn on at 77, and off at 78. And the back up might turn on at 76 and off at 78.

 

[Tastee]

If you use an aquarium controller such as an Apex and heaters with a thermostat you already have two ‘controllers’ - the Apex (or alternate) and the thermostat.

My Apex controls my main heater and it’s internal thermostat is set just > the Apex off level. So if Apex fails on the heater turns itself off.

My backup heater is not controlled by Apex and powered from mains and set just < the Apex main heater off level. So if Apex fails off or fails completely the backup heater will take over.

Similarly I power (but not control) my chiller from the EB. So if the chiller fails on, the primary heater will ‘fight’ it and if temp gets too low the Apex will turn the chiller off.

If the chiller fails off I get an Apex alert. At that point I would go home and turn the air conditioning on.

 

[dantimdad]

Which ranco Or heater probe and controller would you recommend? I need to plug 3 heaters in.

I use the ITC1000. How I have done mine is to wire it to a switch panel I built then to an outlet. If you check out my build you can see how I did it and I have tips for hooking it up properly. I have to do the pics of the probe sealing.

You could, theoretically, wire it to as many heaters as you want as long as it didn't break 1000 watts. If I remember.

 

[Feet4Fish]

I run two temperature sensors in my sump and if either gets above 81F they shut off my return pump and send me an alert. I don't use an Apex so there might be a better way to do it with your system. I would much rather cook my sump than my DT.

What temp sensors do you use?

 

[dantimdad]

I just went through this thought process after watching a BRS Live discussion where they mentioned Neptune doesn't recommend you ever plug an uncontrolled titanium heater directly in to the Apex.

I have a 90 gal with two Finnex 300w heaters, a primary and a back up. I had the primary hooked up directly to the Apex EB832, and the back up to a second EB832 through an Inkbird ITC-308. This setup has done fine for two years. The flaw in my rig was if the Apex temp probe failed or the relay controlling the heater outlet stuck "ON" on the primary, I could have cooked my tank. A tank can recover from colder temps, say 68, much better than hotter, say 90+. Also, one failed "ON" heater will get you overheated potentially killing your tank, where one failed "OFF" will just go to your backup.

for overheat protection and redundancy, I put a second controller on the primary heater, an Inkbird ITC -306T ($30 on Amazon). It's probably better suited for my heater only application and a few dollars less than the ITC-308 which is set up for a heater and chiller.

The minimum temp swing on the Inkbirds is 1 deg F, not near the 1/10th ° fidelity of the Apex. I got around it it by setting the Inkbird at 80 deg with a 2 deg swing. This means the Inkbird will power on it's outlet(s) at 78°, off at 80° I have my Apex set to power the outlet at 77.5° off at 78°. So... the outlet powers on at 77.5°, the Inkbird sensing the temp below 78° allows the heater to power up and draw power through the Inkbird outlet. It will now warm the tank to 78°, then Apex shuts off the EB832 outlet until the temp drops to 77.5° and continues that loop until the the heater is no longer needed (Summer), and protects against high temperature. With a separate (and calibrating probe) the Inkbird will power off at 80° should the Apex temp probe fail, or the outlet relay on the EB832 stick "ON". I have the backup set the same, but "ON" at a degree lower with a notification to let me know if it ever draws power, telling me the primary heater is failing/ has failed.

I'm sure it's not the only option, maybe not even the best option, but in my Apex setup, for $30 I now have redundant overheat protection on both heaters.

OK so basically, if you have your tank get cooked it's because a volcano sprang up in your back yard. :)

Well, done! Seriously. You and @Brew12 have two of the most well thought out protection plans ever.

 

[Brew12]

What temp sensors do you use?

I use a Profilux controller.