Lets Discuss Ethics in the Hobby

[MnFish1]

Is killing a hermit by stomping on it ethical? If no, then why is injecting vinegar into an aiptasia OK? If yes, then why all the uproar?

Ethical - depends on a lot of things, right? In certain cultures killing an ant is unethical. etc etc. Its kind of a loaded term - kind of like a political issue thats being widely debated now as to 'ethics'

You see where I am going here. But let expand a little.

By injecting the nem with vinegar, you are burning it. Yet stepping on a hermit to kill it quickly is not OK?

In my culture, as an organism increases from a bacteria to a human being, there are different ethics. The anemone does not have a brain. The hermit Crab does, for example. You could also ask the question is it ethical to take an antibiotic - since the antibiotic is going to cause the bacteria to explode. With your specific question - it is difficult/impossible to eradicate aiptasia without those methods. There are more humane methods to kill a hermit crab (including giving it away). So - stomping on a hermit crab is 'not ethical' - but also not a crime.

Then we get into nuking tanks for baddies. Think about how much stuff dies when you reset a tank and dry a rock out. Is that OK.

This goes to the same question as using an antibiotic to kill bacteria. I think it's 'ethical' in the sense you're asking. I do not necessarily think it's ethical to use antibiotics used for human medicine to eradicate algae or cure anemones, etc - because this can promote bacterial resistance which can harm humans.

Does "ethical" only apply to fish and crabs? Would it not apply to all "living things"?

There are many places that eat tangs, parrotfish, angelfish. A better question (IMHO) - is it ethical to kill a walleye and eat it? Most would say yes. I know this is going to sound bad - but IMHO, my fish - I love each one. I would be sad if they died - I try to keep them healthy. I do not view them necessarily the same as a dog for example. They are, in fact, fish. From an ethical perspective - I think our responsibility is to treat all of the things we purchase in our tanks in the highest/best manner possible.

Buy the way, lets keep this PC and "Be Nice"

Not sure what 'PC' has to do with the discussion. PC IMHO - would mean there would be no discussion. Of course nice is always best

 

[MnFish1]

I am just more into defining R2R ethics. I feel this needs to be outlined, as what is currently known is to "be nice and care for our critters". If I do not consider something a critter, then how can it be deemed unethical when I remove it and kill it.

Maybe I should have done the title as "What is considered a critter in a reef tank"?

Since people eat the fish we keep in tanks. If you HAD to - I do not think it's unethical to kill a fish (i.e. you could not re-home it and it was causing a problem with your tank - of course this would be a last resort). So - given that definition, I think that would apply to everything else in the tank. Before the attacks start - I'm not advocating killing anything. Here is a nice picture of parrotfish for sale in a fish market. There is another one with a bucket full of naso tangs - which I can't find.

 

[MnFish1]

I am trying to determine those other persons ethics to help determine what R2R should and should not consider ethical.

If we are the treat our animals ethically and post have to reflect those ethics, shouldn't we get a consensus of what most consider ethical or not ethical?

Let's face it - Many people - and organizations - think its totally unethical to keep coral, fish, and aquaria in general (whether tank raised or not). There are many posts I've read that have said 'I don't think it's ethical to keep xxxx, but I'm selfish'. There is no one answer to this question IMHO - and again - many people would say R2R is unethical for promoting aquarium keeping at all:

Fish in Tanks? No, Thanks! | PETA

Fragile tropical fish, who were born to dwell in the majestic seas and forage among brilliantly colored coral reefs, suffer miserably when they are forced

www.peta.org

 

[MnFish1]

Yes and no.

This is more to see how much common ground we all have.

At the end of the day, we are at the mercy of the mods. I get that. Would just be nice to have a few common things everyone considers ethical or not ethical to go off of.

End of day, there will always be differences and that is what makes things great. Well, provided it can lead to a civil discussion and people can meet in the middle or can see others points of view. To much of an optimist here lol.

If that makes sense.

If you mean what you wrote above - then we already have the ethics definition you asked for 'for R2R'. In other words - you could have made a poll and said click the things it's ethical to kill in your opinion. For R2R the staff decides what's ethical. Period. (for R2R). Unfortunately I don't know what the other thread was/is - so it's a little unclear. I do not think we will have a common ground - given the fact that I disagree with at least a couple things on your list of ethical and unethical things.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

While I could get philosophical with this question as many have, Im simply going to offer my most basic personal POV as I think that's closer to what @Eagle_Steve wanted...I think having a relatively complex central nervous system places many organisms into a different category than say bacteria for example. I know "relative" isnt clearly defined here but I think most people know what I mean. I wouldn't consider aiptasia for example to have a complex nervous system. This doesn't mean it's fine to just go around killing organisms without a more complex CNS but that's where I personally draw the line. And it's not simply about feeling pain. There's actually evidence that plants can even feel pain, yet we have to eat something and I've never heard of humanely harvesting a crop being an issue. I draw the line on a case by case basis because I know what I personally feel is ethical and know not everyone or possibly anyone will always agree. Feel free to ask me hypothetical questions and I'll get back to you if you wanna delve into this deeper with me.

 

[Lavey29]

While I could get philosophical with this question as many have, Im simply going to offer my most basic personal POV as I think that's closer to what @Eagle_Steve wanted...I think having a relatively complex central nervous system places many organisms into a different category than say bacteria for example. I know "relative" isnt clearly defined here but I think most people know what I mean. I wouldn't consider aiptasia for example to have a complex nervous system. This doesn't mean it's fine to just go around killing organisms without a more complex CNS but that's where I personally draw the line. And it's not simply about feeling pain. There's actually evidence that plants can even feel pain, yet we have to eat something and I've never heard of humanely harvesting a crop being an issue. I draw the line on a case by case basis because I know what I personally feel is ethical and know not everyone or possibly anyone will always agree. Feel free to ask me hypothetical questions and I'll get back to you if you wanna delve into this deeper with me.

But wait, aren't you the guy who used a starfish to get a girlfriend? OMG ethics out the window using aquatic life to enhance your love life.....geez....what's next here on R2R? I am going to church now and pray for you all guys right after I leave the bar.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

But wait, aren't you the guy who used a starfish to get a girlfriend? OMG ethics out the window using aquatic life to enhance your love life.....geez....what's next here on R2R? I am going to church now and pray for you all guys right after I leave the bar.

No, I was already going to buy starfish for my study and asked a girl if she wanted to come along...what's unethical here?

 

[Lavey29]

No, I was already going to buy starfish for my study and asked a girl if she wanted to come along...what's unethical here?

so you used the starfish as a wingman, OMG even worse....repent

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

so you used the starfish as a wingman, OMG even worse....repent

That study had been premeditated for months and it came time to finally pick them up...what's wrong with asking someone who's never seen one if they want to come? I feel there's a disconnect here...

 

[Lavey29]

That study had been premeditated for months and it came time to finally pick them up...what's wrong with asking someone who's never seen one if they want to come? I feel there's a disconnect here...

Starfish seduction in the name of science.....OMG the end of times are upon us

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Starfish seduction in the name of science.....OMG the end of times are upon us

This is a post about ethics...the starfish would have been purchased regardless... should I have gone to the shops in secret or convinced them to meet me in a backstreet alley so nobody would witness my starfish purchase?

 

[Lavey29]

This is a post about ethics...the starfish would have been purchased regardless... should I have gone to the shops in secret or convinced them to meet me in a backstreet alley so nobody would witness my starfish purchase?

Now you want to do back alley starfish deals? OMG its gone from bad to worse....pray and ask for forgiveness.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Now you want to do back alley starfish deals? OMG its gone from bad to worse....pray and ask for forgiveness.

We're trying to have a serious discussion about ethics here...if you just want to troll that's what FB is for. The sole ethical position that can be drawn from your comments is that it's unethical to take someone to a store with you to buy something that's already predetermined to be bought. If that's your standpoint that's fine but you could have simply stated that like the rest of us.

 

[Lavey29]

We're trying to have a serious discussion about ethics here...if you just want to troll that's what FB is for. The sole ethical position that can be drawn from your comments is that it's unethical to take someone to a store with you to buy something that's already predetermined to be bought. If that's your standpoint that's fine but you could have simply stated that like the rest of us.

BKK, laugh a little it will make life much easier. I am just having some fun with you.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

BKK, laugh a little it will make life much easier. I am just having some fun with you.

I know but I was hoping someone would actually question me on my ethical POV...that's all. If I took everything too seriously in my life I would've been dead long ago...I just like these type of discussions because they question why you believe what you believe and make you aware of others points of view as a bonus

 

[vetteguy53081]

So, due to a previous thread and the last comment by a Mod, what is considered ethical?

Is killing a hermit by stomping on it ethical? If no, then why is injecting vinegar into an aiptasia OK? If yes, then why all the uproar?

You see where I am going here. But let expand a little.

By injecting the nem with vinegar, you are burning it. Yet stepping on a hermit to kill it quickly is not OK?

At least it is quick and you are not injecting the crab with vinegar.

Then we get into nuking tanks for baddies. Think about how much stuff dies when you reset a tank and dry a rock out. Is that OK.

Does "ethical" only apply to fish and crabs? Would it not apply to all "living things"?

Buy the way, lets keep this PC and "Be Nice".

The thing is, you are going to get many mixed feelings, opinions, behaviors, ones' decision making and beliefs on a given forum whether it be marine, cars, etc.
You have to do what you feel is best and humane/ethical based on your desire and belief
This is the part of being on a forum. I typically freeze a suffering specimen which has been a few years but the need does arise

 

[MnFish1]

We're trying to have a serious discussion about ethics here...if you just want to troll that's what FB is for. The sole ethical position that can be drawn from your comments is that it's unethical to take someone to a store with you to buy something that's already predetermined to be bought. If that's your standpoint that's fine but you could have simply stated that like the rest of us.

I think he was making a joke.

 

[I.AM.MR.MIKE]

I am not flushing a living fish and if you feel you have to kill it do it as fast and humanely as possible,

 

[MnFish1]

I am not flushing a living fish and if you feel you have to kill it do it as fast and humanely as possible,

Curious - how would you do it?

 

[I.AM.MR.MIKE]

Curious - how would you do it?

I wouldn't, but they say to freeze them. I have given fish I didn't want to a LFS. Kind of irritating to give them the fish for nothing and see it for sale later. If I had to put it down I would take it out back and shoot it in the head with my 45 and PD ammo. Make it quick.


Just kidding