Lets Discuss Ethics in the Hobby

[Sailaway]

Had to kill a fish this morning. A lot of people freeze fish and say it puts them in a “sleep” this is not true at all. I’m a fisherman and I have been out for hours on a boat, only to come back to shore and see the fish on the ice are still breathing, which is awful. Freezing fish is unethical. on the other hand, flushing a live fish is worse. Can’t even imagine that. This morning, my linear blenny was choking on sand, struggling to keep himself upright. He had stopped eating for the past two days and it showed. I tried everything and he even ate a little last night, but today he looked awful. I used the most humane, fast method possible. I stabbed him in the head, which immediately killed him. I hated it, because although I do this to red drum, snapper and bass all the time, this was a pet. Everyone has their ideas of being ethical, but we should always treat the animals we are responsible for with respect.

 

[WVNed]

Today we learn that all ethics are relative.

Mine may not be yours and vice versa.

 

[Piscans]

So, due to a previous thread and the last comment by a Mod, what is considered ethical?

Is killing a hermit by stomping on it ethical? If no, then why is injecting vinegar into an aiptasia OK? If yes, then why all the uproar?

You see where I am going here. But let expand a little.

By injecting the nem with vinegar, you are burning it. Yet stepping on a hermit to kill it quickly is not OK?

At least it is quick and you are not injecting the crab with vinegar.

Then we get into nuking tanks for baddies. Think about how much stuff dies when you reset a tank and dry a rock out. Is that OK.

Does "ethical" only apply to fish and crabs? Would it not apply to all "living things"?

Buy the way, lets keep this PC and "Be Nice".

if i kill it quickly, it suffers less.

 

[Piscans]

Had to kill a fish this morning. A lot of people freeze fish and say it puts them in a “sleep” this is not true at all. I’m a fisherman and I have been out for hours on a boat, only to come back to shore and see the fish on the ice are still breathing, which is awful. Freezing fish is unethical. on the other hand, flushing a live fish is worse. Can’t even imagine that. This morning, my linear blenny was choking on sand, struggling to keep himself upright. He had stopped eating for the past two days and it showed. I tried everything and he even ate a little last night, but today he looked awful. I used the most humane, fast method possible. I stabbed him in the head, which immediately killed him. I hated it, because although I do this to red drum, snapper and bass all the time, this was a pet. Everyone has their ideas of being ethical, but we should always treat the animals we are responsible for with respect.

im sorry you had to do that. if i have to kill a fish, ive only had to do it twice, i put it in a plastic bag and smash it with a big rock, kills it instantly. severs all the nerves instantly pretty much

 

[AKL1950]

Just a thought on this, and right up front I am in no way throwing spears at anyone. Just looking at this from a larger perspective. We seem, as an “intelligent species“, to have come up with all sorts of methods to “kindly” euthanize other species. We accept that and seem to have no problem thinking there is anything wrong with it. But, when it comes to our own species, we cannot fathom even considering that euthanization is acceptable at all. Seems like a fairly wide double standard. We do the same thing with spay and neutering our pets so they won’t reproduce, but would never consider doing that to humans. Life is quite precious whether it a human or any other life form on the planet (except mosquitos). I think we should do everything in our powers to help those other species in our care to stay alive. If they are finally taken by disease, injury or natural causes then we did our best to save them and if we can’t, we move on. Just like we would do with our own kind.

I will have to caviat my own comments knowing that life on this planet is based on consumption to stay alive. We are part of the food chain, so we also have to eat other species (plant or animal). I I acknowledge that and understand there has to be dual standard that has to cover both our survival and our care for other species.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Just a thought on this, and right up front I am in no way throwing spears at anyone. Just looking at this from a larger perspective. We seem, as an “intelligent species“, to have come up with all sorts of methods to “kindly” euthanize other species. We accept that and seem to have no problem thinking there is anything wrong with it. But, when it comes to our own species, we cannot fathom even considering that euthanization is acceptable at all. Seems like a fairly wide double standard. We do the same thing with spay and neutering our pets so they won’t reproduce, but would never consider doing that to humans. Life is quite precious whether it a human or any other life form on the planet (except mosquitos). I think we should do everything in our powers to help those other species in our care to stay alive. If they are finally taken by disease, injury or natural causes then we did our best to save them and if we can’t, we move on. Just like we would do with our own kind.

I will have to caviat my own comments knowing that life on this planet is based on consumption to stay alive. We are part of the food chain, so we also have to eat other species (plant or animal). I I acknowledge that and understand there has to be dual standard that has to cover both our survival and our care for other species.

Definitely not trying to start a debate here but we dont only fathom euthanization of members of our own species, we've enforced it by law through the death penalty...humans are pretty cruel to their fellow man I'd say throughout history worldwide

 

[Mortgaged Reefs]

I think I identify as a crab

 

[AKL1950]

Definitely not trying to start a debate here but we dont only fathom euthanization of members of our own species, we've enforced it by law through the death penalty...humans are pretty cruel to their fellow man I'd say throughout history worldwide

Yes, different subject, but I agree we are an incredibly cruel species. Very few other species kill just for the fun of it.

 

[Big Smelly fish]

I’m late but I look at pest in the aquarium the same as pest like weeds in a garden. Put them and kill them. If your lawn has weeds you kill them . Nothing unethical about it. Now fish are different because any fish in your tank is there because you made a choice to put it there.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No discussion of hobby ethics is complete without a discussion of hobby vendor ethics. Apologies if I missed it earlier in the thread.

This hobby is filled with issues ranging from borderline unethical to grossly unethical/illegal.

Borderline might be lighting issues in corals for sale. IMO, folks should be told the lighting in a picture, at the very least, and corals should not be shown in lighting that no one or almost no one uses by itself in a reef tank. I've been burned by this myself.

What level of confidence should a company have before claiming a product accomplishes something? Seachem, for example, sells a product that has a claim that is based solely on a few users saying it had that effect for them (they literally state this deep in the FAQ section of their web site). Is that sufficient to market with that claim? Without any testing? (this question seems rhetorical to me lol).

If a product does something in fresh water, is it ethical to market it to reefers and freshwater folks in the same advertisement if you haven't actually tested to see if it does it in seawater? I know of some that have this issue, misleading lots of reefers without actually lying to them. Maybe the manufacturer intentionally mislead, and maybe they are just ignorant of their own product limitations. Is it unethical to be ignorant of whether your product works in any scenario that a user is likely to use it?

Manufacturer claims that are simply wrong without the company knowing it may not be unethical at first if they actually thought it was accurate. But what about after being told it is wrong and not changing the advertising? I personally know of several of these.

Sadly, the list of unethical company behavior is too long to even put it all down.

 

[Gtinnel]

But, when it comes to our own species, we cannot fathom even considering that euthanization is acceptable at all.

Are you aware that euthanasia is legal in several U.S. states and several countries, so saying not acceptable at all is a bit of a stretch IMO. Also, about the spay and neuter part there are a few countries in the world that have forced castration for sex offenders. I think a lot of human ethics in regards to other humans will change drastically from on country/region to the next.

I for one in certain circumstances am completely okay with euthanasia and personally think it should be legal everywhere, again under certain circumstances.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Had to kill a fish this morning. A lot of people freeze fish and say it puts them in a “sleep” this is not true at all. I’m a fisherman and I have been out for hours on a boat, only to come back to shore and see the fish on the ice are still breathing, which is awful. Freezing fish is unethical. on the other hand, flushing a live fish is worse. Can’t even imagine that. This morning, my linear blenny was choking on sand, struggling to keep himself upright. He had stopped eating for the past two days and it showed. I tried everything and he even ate a little last night, but today he looked awful. I used the most humane, fast method possible. I stabbed him in the head, which immediately killed him. I hated it, because although I do this to red drum, snapper and bass all the time, this was a pet. Everyone has their ideas of being ethical, but we should always treat the animals we are responsible for with respect.

Sorry to hear.

"Pithing" is an accepted means to kill fish for the food industry and sportfishing. It is also a viable method for aquarium fish, but many people find it distasteful to do.

At the risk of it being "too long, didn't read", here is an excerpt from my fish disease book on euthanasia:

Euthanasia​

Euthanasia is a word derived from two Greek words that roughly translates to “good death”. In other words, euthanasia is the painless killing of an organism. In general usage, there is also the underlying understanding that euthanasia is performed on terminal patients only. This however, is not always the case with aquarium animals. Euthanasia may be performed as a population management tool, or for scientific research. Sometimes the phrase “humane euthanasia” is used, but that is redundant, as the lack of pain means the process is humane.

In this era of quick fixes and immediate gratification, it can be difficult for aquarists to understand that some fish diseases are simply not going to respond to any medication or treatment provided. Some ailing fishes, especially those with chronic diseases, simply cannot be cured and are in fact, slowly dying. Once they reach the point of being “moribund” (not able to feed or swim normally) euthanasia should be considered as a humane alternative to continued unsuccessful treatments.

Do fish feel pain?
Some research has indicated that fish do feel pain, while other studies show that they don’t. The true answer probably lies somewhere in-between; fish do feel an avoidance to adverse stimulus, but it isn’t “conscious pain” as seen in mammals. Termed “Nociception”, this is an animal’s nervous system's response to potentially harmful stimuli. Nociception triggers a variety of physiological and behavioral responses and usually results in a subjective experience of pain in sentient beings. It is less clear how fish and invertebrates receive nociception; is it felt as classical pain, or does it simply create an avoidance response in the animal? Since it is better to err on the side of caution, so euthanasia (painless death) is the most humane option.

Whatever degree of pain or physical discomfort fish experience, it can be argued that allowing chronically ill fish to continue suffering from any major nociception is ethically questionable.

When is euthanasia warranted?

Euthanasia should be considered for a fish if:

1) It has a chronic, untreatable disease (such as tumors, blindness, or starvation)
2) The fish is “moribund” due to severe injury or illness.
3) In some cases, euthanasia is considered necessary for population management reasons. For the sake of argument, let’s say that a population of an endangered species is being managed for conservation purposes, and there is an issue where if the male/female ratio becomes skewed, and increased numbers of one sex (often the males) will disrupt the integrity of the whole population. In that case, it may be best to euthanize the surplus males in order to better preserve the genetic diversity of the entire population.

The American Veterinary Medical Association have their 2020 euthanasia guidelines posted online at https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Documents/euthanasia.pdf

Preferred methods for euthanasia

MS-222
Every aquarist should have a plan for specimen euthanasia before they need to employ it. An overdose of buffered Tricaine methane sulfonate (MS-222) is the preferred method for euthanizing fish. Dosing at a rate of greater than 300 mg/l MS-222 along with 300 mg/l sodium bicarbonate is effective for euthanizing fish within 30 minutes. However, MS-222 is expensive, and not readily available in smaller quantities to home aquarists. Removing the fish too soon from the solution may allow it to recover. It is therefore suggested to leave the fish in a small amount of the euthanizing solution, and freeze it for later disposal.

Clove oil (eugenol)
One product that aquarists can buy that is approved by at least some veterinarians and research biologists is clove oil, also called eugenol. A dose of 50 mg/l is usually sufficient in euthanizing fish. This equates to about 0.20 ml of eugenol in one gallon of aquarium water.

Because eugenol does not mix well with water, and because larger volumes are easier for hobbyists to measure out, it can be dosed using the following method:

1) Add 2 ml of eugenol to 100 ml of tank water in a sealed container and shake it vigorously.

2) Add 10 ml of this suspended solution to each gallon of water needed to euthanize the fish.

3) Place the fish in this solution and keep it covered to prevent it from jumping out and to help keep it calm.

4) Wait at least twenty minutes after it stops breathing, and then remove the fish from the solution and freeze it for later disposal.


Other methods
A variety of other methods have been proposed for the euthanasia of fishes, but none are fully accepted by veterinary experts. Still, home aquarists need more common tools to use, so those methods are listed here in roughly descending order of suitability:

Ethanol
Regular alcohol at a dose of 25 ml per liter will cause respiratory collapse and death in fishes within 30 minutes. The trouble is that alcohol is not available in pure form unless it has been “denatured” by the addition of distasteful chemicals such as turpentine. Vodka is about 40% alcohol by volume, so using it 62 ml per liter will give an effective dose.

Decapitation/pithing
Cutting a fish’s spinal cord, right behind the head, is a quick method of euthanasia that is approved for use in food fishes (where the use of chemicals would otherwise make the flesh unfit to eat). The issue is really that the method is distasteful for most people to do, so it is rarely used by aquarists. However, it is quick and effective.

Freezing
Placing the affected fish in a small amount of aquarium water in a sealed container and then placing the container in a freezer is a euthanasia technique used by some people. However, it is slow to work, so it is not considered humane. Its appeal as a method is that the fish is “out of sight” so people feel more detached from the process.


An option of last resort
The animals in your aquariums are completely reliant on you for proper care. It is your responsibility to see to it that their lives in captivity are humane as possible and that all of their needs are met. If you cannot meet their needs, please find someone who is more able. Euthanasia should be considered only for health reasons, not because it is no longer convenient to care for an animal.


Jay

 

[Sailaway]

Sorry to hear.

"Pithing" is an accepted means to kill fish for the food industry and sportfishing. It is also a viable method for aquarium fish, but many people find it distasteful to do.

At the risk of it being "too long, didn't read", here is an excerpt from my fish disease book on euthanasia:

Euthanasia​

Euthanasia is a word derived from two Greek words that roughly translates to “good death”. In other words, euthanasia is the painless killing of an organism. In general usage, there is also the underlying understanding that euthanasia is performed on terminal patients only. This however, is not always the case with aquarium animals. Euthanasia may be performed as a population management tool, or for scientific research. Sometimes the phrase “humane euthanasia” is used, but that is redundant, as the lack of pain means the process is humane.

In this era of quick fixes and immediate gratification, it can be difficult for aquarists to understand that some fish diseases are simply not going to respond to any medication or treatment provided. Some ailing fishes, especially those with chronic diseases, simply cannot be cured and are in fact, slowly dying. Once they reach the point of being “moribund” (not able to feed or swim normally) euthanasia should be considered as a humane alternative to continued unsuccessful treatments.

Do fish feel pain?
Some research has indicated that fish do feel pain, while other studies show that they don’t. The true answer probably lies somewhere in-between; fish do feel an avoidance to adverse stimulus, but it isn’t “conscious pain” as seen in mammals. Termed “Nociception”, this is an animal’s nervous system's response to potentially harmful stimuli. Nociception triggers a variety of physiological and behavioral responses and usually results in a subjective experience of pain in sentient beings. It is less clear how fish and invertebrates receive nociception; is it felt as classical pain, or does it simply create an avoidance response in the animal? Since it is better to err on the side of caution, so euthanasia (painless death) is the most humane option.

Whatever degree of pain or physical discomfort fish experience, it can be argued that allowing chronically ill fish to continue suffering from any major nociception is ethically questionable.

When is euthanasia warranted?

Euthanasia should be considered for a fish if:

1) It has a chronic, untreatable disease (such as tumors, blindness, or starvation)
2) The fish is “moribund” due to severe injury or illness.
3) In some cases, euthanasia is considered necessary for population management reasons. For the sake of argument, let’s say that a population of an endangered species is being managed for conservation purposes, and there is an issue where if the male/female ratio becomes skewed, and increased numbers of one sex (often the males) will disrupt the integrity of the whole population. In that case, it may be best to euthanize the surplus males in order to better preserve the genetic diversity of the entire population.

The American Veterinary Medical Association have their 2020 euthanasia guidelines posted online at https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Documents/euthanasia.pdf

Preferred methods for euthanasia

MS-222
Every aquarist should have a plan for specimen euthanasia before they need to employ it. An overdose of buffered Tricaine methane sulfonate (MS-222) is the preferred method for euthanizing fish. Dosing at a rate of greater than 300 mg/l MS-222 along with 300 mg/l sodium bicarbonate is effective for euthanizing fish within 30 minutes. However, MS-222 is expensive, and not readily available in smaller quantities to home aquarists. Removing the fish too soon from the solution may allow it to recover. It is therefore suggested to leave the fish in a small amount of the euthanizing solution, and freeze it for later disposal.

Clove oil (eugenol)
One product that aquarists can buy that is approved by at least some veterinarians and research biologists is clove oil, also called eugenol. A dose of 50 mg/l is usually sufficient in euthanizing fish. This equates to about 0.20 ml of eugenol in one gallon of aquarium water.

Because eugenol does not mix well with water, and because larger volumes are easier for hobbyists to measure out, it can be dosed using the following method:

1) Add 2 ml of eugenol to 100 ml of tank water in a sealed container and shake it vigorously.

2) Add 10 ml of this suspended solution to each gallon of water needed to euthanize the fish.

3) Place the fish in this solution and keep it covered to prevent it from jumping out and to help keep it calm.

4) Wait at least twenty minutes after it stops breathing, and then remove the fish from the solution and freeze it for later disposal.


Other methods
A variety of other methods have been proposed for the euthanasia of fishes, but none are fully accepted by veterinary experts. Still, home aquarists need more common tools to use, so those methods are listed here in roughly descending order of suitability:

Ethanol
Regular alcohol at a dose of 25 ml per liter will cause respiratory collapse and death in fishes within 30 minutes. The trouble is that alcohol is not available in pure form unless it has been “denatured” by the addition of distasteful chemicals such as turpentine. Vodka is about 40% alcohol by volume, so using it 62 ml per liter will give an effective dose.

Decapitation/pithing
Cutting a fish’s spinal cord, right behind the head, is a quick method of euthanasia that is approved for use in food fishes (where the use of chemicals would otherwise make the flesh unfit to eat). The issue is really that the method is distasteful for most people to do, so it is rarely used by aquarists. However, it is quick and effective.

Freezing
Placing the affected fish in a small amount of aquarium water in a sealed container and then placing the container in a freezer is a euthanasia technique used by some people. However, it is slow to work, so it is not considered humane. Its appeal as a method is that the fish is “out of sight” so people feel more detached from the process.


An option of last resort
The animals in your aquariums are completely reliant on you for proper care. It is your responsibility to see to it that their lives in captivity are humane as possible and that all of their needs are met. If you cannot meet their needs, please find someone who is more able. Euthanasia should be considered only for health reasons, not because it is no longer convenient to care for an animal.


Jay

That was quite insightful, thanks Jay!

 

[jabberwock]

I just try to be quick about it. That is what I would prefer if it were me. There have been a couple times in my life when I applied that thought in my head (false alarms...). Like when I thought it was a giant shark, and it turned out to be a manatee.

I am a hunter and a fisherman, and I always thank the Lord for a quick and merciful kill. Death is part of life.

 

[Sailaway]

I just try to be quick about it. That is what I would prefer if it were me. There have been a couple times in my life when I applied that thought in my head (false alarms...). Like when I thought it was a giant shark, and it turned out to be a manatee.

I am a hunter and a fisherman, and I always thank the Lord for a quick and merciful kill. Death is part of life.

Well said.

 

[Hillpag]

Sorry to hear.

"Pithing" is an accepted means to kill fish for the food industry and sportfishing. It is also a viable method for aquarium fish, but many people find it distasteful to do.

At the risk of it being "too long, didn't read", here is an excerpt from my fish disease book on euthanasia:

Euthanasia​

Euthanasia is a word derived from two Greek words that roughly translates to “good death”. In other words, euthanasia is the painless killing of an organism. In general usage, there is also the underlying understanding that euthanasia is performed on terminal patients only. This however, is not always the case with aquarium animals. Euthanasia may be performed as a population management tool, or for scientific research. Sometimes the phrase “humane euthanasia” is used, but that is redundant, as the lack of pain means the process is humane.

In this era of quick fixes and immediate gratification, it can be difficult for aquarists to understand that some fish diseases are simply not going to respond to any medication or treatment provided. Some ailing fishes, especially those with chronic diseases, simply cannot be cured and are in fact, slowly dying. Once they reach the point of being “moribund” (not able to feed or swim normally) euthanasia should be considered as a humane alternative to continued unsuccessful treatments.

Do fish feel pain?
Some research has indicated that fish do feel pain, while other studies show that they don’t. The true answer probably lies somewhere in-between; fish do feel an avoidance to adverse stimulus, but it isn’t “conscious pain” as seen in mammals. Termed “Nociception”, this is an animal’s nervous system's response to potentially harmful stimuli. Nociception triggers a variety of physiological and behavioral responses and usually results in a subjective experience of pain in sentient beings. It is less clear how fish and invertebrates receive nociception; is it felt as classical pain, or does it simply create an avoidance response in the animal? Since it is better to err on the side of caution, so euthanasia (painless death) is the most humane option.

Whatever degree of pain or physical discomfort fish experience, it can be argued that allowing chronically ill fish to continue suffering from any major nociception is ethically questionable.

When is euthanasia warranted?

Euthanasia should be considered for a fish if:

1) It has a chronic, untreatable disease (such as tumors, blindness, or starvation)
2) The fish is “moribund” due to severe injury or illness.
3) In some cases, euthanasia is considered necessary for population management reasons. For the sake of argument, let’s say that a population of an endangered species is being managed for conservation purposes, and there is an issue where if the male/female ratio becomes skewed, and increased numbers of one sex (often the males) will disrupt the integrity of the whole population. In that case, it may be best to euthanize the surplus males in order to better preserve the genetic diversity of the entire population.

The American Veterinary Medical Association have their 2020 euthanasia guidelines posted online at https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Documents/euthanasia.pdf

Preferred methods for euthanasia

MS-222
Every aquarist should have a plan for specimen euthanasia before they need to employ it. An overdose of buffered Tricaine methane sulfonate (MS-222) is the preferred method for euthanizing fish. Dosing at a rate of greater than 300 mg/l MS-222 along with 300 mg/l sodium bicarbonate is effective for euthanizing fish within 30 minutes. However, MS-222 is expensive, and not readily available in smaller quantities to home aquarists. Removing the fish too soon from the solution may allow it to recover. It is therefore suggested to leave the fish in a small amount of the euthanizing solution, and freeze it for later disposal.

Clove oil (eugenol)
One product that aquarists can buy that is approved by at least some veterinarians and research biologists is clove oil, also called eugenol. A dose of 50 mg/l is usually sufficient in euthanizing fish. This equates to about 0.20 ml of eugenol in one gallon of aquarium water.

Because eugenol does not mix well with water, and because larger volumes are easier for hobbyists to measure out, it can be dosed using the following method:

1) Add 2 ml of eugenol to 100 ml of tank water in a sealed container and shake it vigorously.

2) Add 10 ml of this suspended solution to each gallon of water needed to euthanize the fish.

3) Place the fish in this solution and keep it covered to prevent it from jumping out and to help keep it calm.

4) Wait at least twenty minutes after it stops breathing, and then remove the fish from the solution and freeze it for later disposal.


Other methods
A variety of other methods have been proposed for the euthanasia of fishes, but none are fully accepted by veterinary experts. Still, home aquarists need more common tools to use, so those methods are listed here in roughly descending order of suitability:

Ethanol
Regular alcohol at a dose of 25 ml per liter will cause respiratory collapse and death in fishes within 30 minutes. The trouble is that alcohol is not available in pure form unless it has been “denatured” by the addition of distasteful chemicals such as turpentine. Vodka is about 40% alcohol by volume, so using it 62 ml per liter will give an effective dose.

Decapitation/pithing
Cutting a fish’s spinal cord, right behind the head, is a quick method of euthanasia that is approved for use in food fishes (where the use of chemicals would otherwise make the flesh unfit to eat). The issue is really that the method is distasteful for most people to do, so it is rarely used by aquarists. However, it is quick and effective.

Freezing
Placing the affected fish in a small amount of aquarium water in a sealed container and then placing the container in a freezer is a euthanasia technique used by some people. However, it is slow to work, so it is not considered humane. Its appeal as a method is that the fish is “out of sight” so people feel more detached from the process.


An option of last resort
The animals in your aquariums are completely reliant on you for proper care. It is your responsibility to see to it that their lives in captivity are humane as possible and that all of their needs are met. If you cannot meet their needs, please find someone who is more able. Euthanasia should be considered only for health reasons, not because it is no longer convenient to care for an animal.


Jay

Thank you for addressing this issue! I’ve been in the position of having to go with euthanasia option and have wondered what to do. This is so helpful and very well structured for a quick and easy read. Not a topic we want much to address but gratitude for reviewing it here, pithing option seems quickest and in someways the most difficult. As they say, the ‘right thing to do’ is often not the ‘easy thing to do’…. though all of these options seem reasonable.