Lets figure out whats wrong.

[m0jjen]

Hey, So over the past 3 years my reef has been slowly dying and i cant seem to find anything wrong with it nomather how much i look. So i recently did another ICP and N-Doc with triton and thought it should give some insight but it pretty much came back perfect.

N-dock results with abit of elevated nitrogen:

ICP:

I've checked all the equipement and such for corrosion. Everything works just fine. Had a small pump leaking some stray voltage about 2 years ago which got replaced, Apart from that nothing.

About the system:

~1000 liters total volume fragtank and reefer 625 sharing a sump with an inline fuge.

Filtration is a skimmer, biomedia (maxspect and siporax) along with the fuge.
Flow is 4x MP40 and i've replaced all wesides about a year ago. Sump flow is various pumps and probably abit overkill.

I do 10% waterchages weekly and dose some carbon (about half recommended) to keep nitrates down. All the major elements are supplimented with a calcium reactor.

Lights are radion gen3 pro and ai hydra 26 over the fragtank.


Cleanup crew is replenished over the years and are about 50-60 snails of varied sorts. 4 differents sized hermits, sea urchins. Cleaner shrimp and whatnot. Nothing out of the ordinary.

Any ideas? Im kinda at a loss here.

 

[m0jjen]

Some pictures of what remains

 

[maroun.c]

Fluoride is more and more reported to be an important element somehow similar to Potassium. I would correct that slowly and see if things improve. I's also run 5-6 large water changes to offset anything thats accumulated, run some carbon for few weeks, maybe a polyfilter to remove anything thats irrtitating the corals not caught by ICP.
i struggled for extensive time with coral issue and the above seems to have helped.

 

[m0jjen]

Fluoride is more and more reported to be an important element somehow similar to Potassium. I would correct that slowly and see if things improve. I's also run 5-6 large water changes to offset anything thats accumulated, run some carbon for few weeks, maybe a polyfilter to remove anything thats irrtitating the corals not caught by ICP.
i struggled for extensive time with coral issue and the above seems to have helped.

Its the first time it comes in low but its certainly on my fix list.

The bigger waterchanges is something i do from time to time. Like every fifth/sixth is about 30% total volume.

 

[maroun.c]

Mine has been low on all my ICPs from around 1 year ago. I even tested a fresh mix of tropic Marine pro that I use and found it to be low in the salt so now I even supplement the new water before a water change

 

[m0jjen]

Mine has been low on all my ICPs from around 1 year ago. I even tested a fresh mix of tropic Marine pro that I use and found it to be low in the salt so now I even supplement the new water before a water change

Just went in to check. seems like the previous one was low aswell. Might have been soon after the problems started to escalate. Will order some floride.

 

[mcarroll]

Hey, So over the past 3 years my reef has been slowly dying and i cant seem to find anything wrong with it nomather how much i look.

Sounds like starvation, maybe with a component of that starvation being low flow.

You mentioned a lot of detritus. Vortech pumps (like many others) specialize in low velocity flow.....which is fine, but it does limit what the pumps can do. An mp40 can only provide meaningful flow out to a distance of 24" or so. I suspect with only 4 in such a large tank that flow has been borderline at best, with areas of sub-par flow. Detritus is proof of this.

You mentioned previously that the skimmer is always running....no "resting phase" can indicate an undersized unit.

You mentioned previously that you have multiple types of auxiliary bio-media. I would remove these from the equation.

You mentinoed before that a pH range of 7.7-7.9 was too low. Maybe by your preference, but not according to the needs of your corals....and considering you run a calcium reactor, that is not low whatsoever.

You've mentioned ICP testing multiple times, but I havne't seen any home test results....consider switching to home testing since you have more control and can test more frequently.

To me, flow stands out as the obvious problem that is causing the more apparent issues. Remember that detritus settling represently UNFED corals.....detritus is supposed to be FOOD. Remember this is not a fish tank – it's a reef.

For better and worse, flow impacts corals in all the ways you're seeing....it can limit respiration, feeding and access to dissolved nutrients, and pretty much every function of the coral.

I would either increase the number of pumps you have by 50% (maybe more, but try that first) or try something stronger like a Tunze 6105 in a couple places.

 

[CHSUB]

Your pictures don’t show any growth, maybe just misrepresentation? I’m not seeing once growing healthy colonies that declined. I’m seeing sick looking corals that never grew and now are fading. I personally have had troubles with carbon dosing and corals. What is your no3 that you need wc and carbon dosing to control? For reference your TBn is 3.74 which seems very high imo, mine is 0.34 and while this measurement is rather new it the hobby a high number is an indicator of “pollution”.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Sounds like starvation, maybe with a component of that starvation being low flow.

You mentioned a lot of detritus. Vortech pumps (like many others) specialize in low velocity flow.....which is fine, but it does limit what the pumps can do. An mp40 can only provide meaningful flow out to a distance of 24" or so. I suspect with only 4 in such a large tank that flow has been borderline at best, with areas of sub-par flow. Detritus is proof of this.

You mentioned previously that the skimmer is always running....no "resting phase" can indicate an undersized unit.

You mentioned previously that you have multiple types of auxiliary bio-media. I would remove these from the equation.

You mentinoed before that a pH range of 7.7-7.9 was too low. Maybe by your preference, but not according to the needs of your corals....and considering you run a calcium reactor, that is not low whatsoever.

You've mentioned ICP testing multiple times, but I havne't seen any home test results....consider switching to home testing since you have more control and can test more frequently.

To me, flow stands out as the obvious problem that is causing the more apparent issues. Remember that detritus settling represently UNFED corals.....detritus is supposed to be FOOD. Remember this is not a fish tank – it's a reef.

For better and worse, flow impacts corals in all the ways you're seeing....it can limit respiration, feeding and access to dissolved nutrients, and pretty much every function of the coral.

I would either increase the number of pumps you have by 50% (maybe more, but try that first) or try something stronger like a Tunze 6105 in a couple places.

Just went in to check. seems like the previous one was low aswell. Might have been soon after the problems started to escalate. Will order some floride.

Municipalities are adding more flouride than ever. Some reasons this happens are are often a change in salinity, temperature and salt mixes. Additionally, Elevated phosphate, light and even new light and elevated alkalinity levels will be a higher risk to coral. Other minor factors will be low Dissolved oxygen, new corals especially leathers (which emit a toxin known as Terpenes), false test kit readings and newly added rock can alter chemistry.

 

[m0jjen]

Sounds like starvation, maybe with a component of that starvation being low flow.

You mentioned a lot of detritus. Vortech pumps (like many others) specialize in low velocity flow.....which is fine, but it does limit what the pumps can do. An mp40 can only provide meaningful flow out to a distance of 24" or so. I suspect with only 4 in such a large tank that flow has been borderline at best, with areas of sub-par flow. Detritus is proof of this.

You mentioned previously that the skimmer is always running....no "resting phase" can indicate an undersized unit.

You mentioned previously that you have multiple types of auxiliary bio-media. I would remove these from the equation.

You mentinoed before that a pH range of 7.7-7.9 was too low. Maybe by your preference, but not according to the needs of your corals....and considering you run a calcium reactor, that is not low whatsoever.

You've mentioned ICP testing multiple times, but I havne't seen any home test results....consider switching to home testing since you have more control and can test more frequently.

To me, flow stands out as the obvious problem that is causing the more apparent issues. Remember that detritus settling represently UNFED corals.....detritus is supposed to be FOOD. Remember this is not a fish tank – it's a reef.

For better and worse, flow impacts corals in all the ways you're seeing....it can limit respiration, feeding and access to dissolved nutrients, and pretty much every function of the coral.

I would either increase the number of pumps you have by 50% (maybe more, but try that first) or try something stronger like a Tunze 6105 in a couple places.

Detritus is mostly accumilated in the sump since i've reconfigured the flow, thats taken care of with waterchanges and filterfloss on a weekly basis. Pumps are more than adequate for a 500 liter / 130 gal tank. The skimmer dont always skim, Got a bubble king which is properly sized. If anything im on the higher end on fishload.

The PH range has been better lately and stays above 8 at all times. peaks at 8.2 and low end during the night at 8.05ish.

I do hometest weekly and log them in my apex. They are fairly in line with the ICP tests so i didnt mention them.

Flow might be an issue as you state it but im having a hard time seeing it, can up it abit and see if it provides any results in a few weeks. Had a Gyre 250 in the display aswell but removed it since it was overkill and my gonnies really didnt like the amount of flow provided.

Your pictures don’t show any growth, maybe just misrepresentation? I’m not seeing once growing healthy colonies that declined. I’m seeing sick looking corals that never grew and now are fading. I personally have had troubles with carbon dosing and corals. What is your no3 that you need wc and carbon dosing to control? For reference your TBn is 3.74 which seems very high imo, mine is 0.34 and while this measurement is rather new it the hobby a high number is an indicator of “pollution”.

There were plenty with growth at the start. The acro was 1 branch about 2 inch frag, Gonnie was about 1/10th of the size and the duncan 3-4 heads. The half dead colony is about 15-20 heads at peak. Pollution might be a source of the problem, indeed.

 

[mcarroll]

Detritus is mostly accumilated in the sump since i've reconfigured the flow, thats taken care of with waterchanges and filterfloss on a weekly basis. Pumps are more than adequate for a 500 liter / 130 gal tank. The skimmer dont always skim, Got a bubble king which is properly sized. If anything im on the higher end on fishload.

Sounds like there's been an improvement since you mentioned it settling all over the rocks, etc before. That's excellent!

Consider improving the flow in the sump as well – keep the detritus afloat until the corals eat it. That was how my old sump was setup....thankfully it wasn't too hard to pull off just using a spare Seio 1000 pump I had around. No settling detritus in the sump or the display! (It does take a fair coral density for this to work if you're feeding the tank heavy due to lots of fish...thus lots of detritus.)

The thing with flow is that GPH is a difficult figure to use for saying how much flow you really have. GPH measures volume. GPH doesn't tell us how much work the water can do though. We need a measure of flow like feet per second to know that.

Pump makers have worked hard to lower the speed of flow while increasing volume, so these days it's actually *easy* to wind up with insane flow numbers according to GPH but have soft, mediocre flow around the tank. Flow setup matters – *a lot*.

The PH range has been better lately and stays above 8 at all times. peaks at 8.2 and low end during the night at 8.05ish.

How recent a change is this, and to what would you attribute the change?

I do hometest weekly and log them in my apex. They are fairly in line with the ICP tests so i didnt mention them.

That's a good sign. :)

Flow might be an issue as you state it but im having a hard time seeing it, can up it abit and see if it provides any results in a few weeks. Had a Gyre 250 in the display aswell but removed it since it was overkill and my gonnies really didnt like the amount of flow provided.

The downside of a mixed reef approach is trying to satisfy all those differing (sometimes competing or contradicting) coral needs....sometimes it's pretty tricky and sometimes it doesn't work.

To our benefit, we have so many good options for flow.....and options for corals! :)

There were plenty with growth at the start. The acro was 1 branch about 2 inch frag, Gonnie was about 1/10th of the size and the duncan 3-4 heads. The half dead colony is about 15-20 heads at peak. Pollution might be a source of the problem, indeed.

This is a typical pattern for frags, especially acros tho.....a burst of frag growth as they attempt to adapt to local conditions....and if conditions aren't both optimal *and* pretty consistent, they stall out, maybe recede or RTN.

IMO flow problems (and improvements!!) might explain most of what's going on....perhaps all of it.

I second making some additions to flow and continue what you've been doing and see how it goes.

 

[m0jjen]

Sounds like there's been an improvement since you mentioned it settling all over the rocks, etc before. That's excellent!

Consider improving the flow in the sump as well – keep the detritus afloat until the corals eat it. That was how my old sump was setup....thankfully it wasn't too hard to pull off just using a spare Seio 1000 pump I had around. No settling detritus in the sump or the display! (It does take a fair coral density for this to work if you're feeding the tank heavy due to lots of fish...thus lots of detritus.)

The thing with flow is that GPH is a difficult figure to use for saying how much flow you really have. GPH measures volume. GPH doesn't tell us how much work the water can do though. We need a measure of flow like feet per second to know that.

Pump makers have worked hard to lower the speed of flow while increasing volume, so these days it's actually *easy* to wind up with insane flow numbers according to GPH but have soft, mediocre flow around the tank. Flow setup matters – *a lot*.


How recent a change is this, and to what would you attribute the change?


That's a good sign. :)


The downside of a mixed reef approach is trying to satisfy all those differing (sometimes competing or contradicting) coral needs....sometimes it's pretty tricky and sometimes it doesn't work.

To our benefit, we have so many good options for flow.....and options for corals! :)


This is a typical pattern for frags, especially acros tho.....a burst of frag growth as they attempt to adapt to local conditions....and if conditions aren't both optimal *and* pretty consistent, they stall out, maybe recede or RTN.

IMO flow problems (and improvements!!) might explain most of what's going on....perhaps all of it.

I second making some additions to flow and continue what you've been doing and see how it goes.

I have a small tunze in the sump which stirrs around :) Every WC i use it to blow the sump clean and catch the debrise with filterfloss.

I agree that flow is tricky and GPH is far from everything, i have changed the locations of the MP40's afew times to get the best possible solution for flow. A blanket flow from the gyre is nice but i hate to clean that pump haha.

The idea is SPS dominated but since its all dead now its kinda lack luster. I wanto get the tank back on track and go that route but im having a really hard time getting there. Never had this much problems with a tank before in all honesty.

Regarding detrius im actually quite amazed about how much i do get tho. Each waterchange i get what i can out and turkeybaster the rock, blast the sump with a pump and get what i can with a sock + floss in the sump. But when the dust settles it quite the amount still in there eventho i do this weekly.

 

[BryanM]

Do you vacuum the sand at all?

I was not a sand vacuumer for a long time. I hired a local company to consult and clean the tank, they vacuumed the sand and it made a noticable difference quickly in the happiness of my corals (which I thought were happy at the time).

Since then I vacuum more often than never :)

 

[m0jjen]

How recent a change is this, and to what would you attribute the change?

lika a year ago. kalkwasser

Do you vacuum the sand at all?

I was not a sand vacuumer for a long time. I hired a local company to consult and clean the tank, they vacuumed the sand and it made a noticable difference quickly in the happiness of my corals (which I thought were happy at the time).

Since then I vacuum more often than never :)

no sand, BB :)

 

[mcarroll]

I have a small tunze in the sump which stirrs around :) Every WC i use it to blow the sump clean and catch the debrise with filterfloss.

If you can keep that detritus cycling through the water, that eliminates a signnificant amount of work on your part.

I agree that flow is tricky and GPH is far from everything, i have changed the locations of the MP40's afew times to get the best possible solution for flow. A blanket flow from the gyre is nice but i hate to clean that pump haha.

MP40's are great at what they do. But I don't think they are as universal as some other pumps like the Tunze Streams and Nanostreams. IMO try them across the back of your tank and if you are dedicated to that ecosystem, I would get 50% more mp40's than you have right now. If you have 4 get 2 more.

If you shade the Gyre that ight provide a longer cycle between cleanings and maybe make the cleanings not as intensive.

I would at least be considering an upgrade to more Tunze pumps, this time in the display.

I your tank roughly 60x24x24"?

Lots of ways to add flow...even a pair of cheap Tunze 6045's could make a difference. Switching out main flow to a pair of 6105's or even maybe ORCA 6075's would be another option.

Regarding detrius im actually quite amazed about how much i do get tho. Each waterchange i get what i can out and turkeybaster the rock, blast the sump with a pump and get what i can with a sock + floss in the sump. But when the dust settles it quite the amount still in there eventho i do this weekly.

It sounds like you have already made a lot of improvements in this category....but that still sounds like a lot of detritus settling (and a lot of work). Flow is supposed to prevent 99% of that.

Keep thinking about flow and keep improving – even if it takes more or different pumps.

 

[m0jjen]

If you can keep that detritus cycling through the water, that eliminates a signnificant amount of work on your part.


MP40's are great at what they do. But I don't think they are as universal as some other pumps like the Tunze Streams and Nanostreams. IMO try them across the back of your tank and if you are dedicated to that ecosystem, I would get 50% more mp40's than you have right now. If you have 4 get 2 more.

If you shade the Gyre that ight provide a longer cycle between cleanings and maybe make the cleanings not as intensive.

I would at least be considering an upgrade to more Tunze pumps, this time in the display.

I your tank roughly 60x24x24"?

Lots of ways to add flow...even a pair of cheap Tunze 6045's could make a difference. Switching out main flow to a pair of 6105's or even maybe ORCA 6075's would be another option.


It sounds like you have already made a lot of improvements in this category....but that still sounds like a lot of detritus settling (and a lot of work). Flow is supposed to prevent 99% of that.

Keep thinking about flow and keep improving – even if it takes more or different pumps.

Yeah seems like it might be a culpit ill have to tackle for sure :) Might get afew tunzes to blast some of the calmer spots.

Ya the tank is about 60x24x24, its a reefer 625 xxl display