Lights for deep Tanks

[ReefCartel]

I hear ya I love Echotechs too but ive seen both good and bad tanks with them. Of course we all know lights are important but not the "Most" important assuming my water parameters are stable. I am definitely looking into all of your suggestions with the exception of price, quality, inefficiency or overkill. I just know T5s and Halides are out the question for me.

I actually purchased a Quantum PAR meter and ended up selling it but I jot down the numbers before I added corals in the tank so i have already have an idea of what T5s gave me and Kessils alone.

Top Left Kessils @ 7500k white 100% Intensity.
Top Right Kessils @ 450mn 100% Intensity
Bottom Right T5 with Kessils supplemented.
Bottom Left T5s alone

 

[cb684]

I have been looking for a way to improve colors in my 96x24 that is 31" deep. I have two 8x54w ATI fixture that give me enough light for my SPS but miss the royal blues from LEDs. I got 2 radion pros G3 in another 48x18 also 31" deep and they provide enough light. My experience with Kessils (I own a 360W-E) on a shallow reef was not great. I could not get 200 PAR on a 12" deep tank with the fixture hanging at 8" from the water line.
Here another, more conservative, idea:
Have you seen these?
(http://www.marinedepot.com/Euroquat...quariums-Euroquatics-5U05947-FILTBUT5-vi.html). Those are LEDs in a T5 casing that might just work for color.
Also there are quite a few people using royal blue reef brite strips to get the color pop.
Good luck.

 

[mcarroll]

[...]I actually purchased a Quantum PAR meter and ended up selling it but I jot down the numbers before I added corals in the tank so i have already have an idea of what T5s gave me and Kessils alone.[...]

I'd be interested to know the measurements you took at the water surface in those pics?

Noticed there were somemeasurements not associated to corals. ;)

I'll assume those were all at the water surface vs up near the light fixture.

PAR of 2000+ is in excess of actual "full sunlight" (can be dangerous), but it looks like those peak areas are pretty small.

Do you recall any other surface measurements such as between the two fixtures or at the edges of the tank?

 

[Osteoclast]

I agree with Mcarroll that you do not want to copy a system without reviewing it and analyzing it in detail--thereby winging it. The tank history is very important and that is why some of the TOTMs reviewed (in many good sites) are good starting points. Many excellent references are out available and systems have been reviewed also (BRS, mrsaltwatertank, Vivids, etc). You can find data with PAR in some instances. Lux is another good metric. Agree it is important to take time, ask questions, see the tanks, etc. Finding experience reefers who have established tanks is very important in my view. The good part is the lighting is so much improved over the past 4-5 years. And for those inclined to diy I have seen extremely nice SPS tanks with DIY LEDs. Go slow, take your time, review as much information and data as you can. I concur that new or trendy is not necessarily best. Good luck with your choice.

 

[CoralIN]

Hey. What LEDs would you guys prefer for Deep tanks? About over 48" + Tanks. Mixed Reef.

What are the total dimensions of the tank? This is a better way to look at the problem. You can overcome unacceptable PAR values through the increase in fixture.....ie: 1 fixture gives you X PAR then 2 fixtures covering the same area give you 2 x X PAR.

If you have a tank that is 48" deep and you run 4 fixtures over it and only get 20 PAR at the bottom. Increasing the fixtures will incrementally increase the PAR levels. So, even the lowest of light levels can be increased using additional fixtures.

This is where a well designed fixture and getting your moneys worth really comes in..... You may like the "look" and price point of one fixture BUT when you realize that you need 20 of them to get an acceptable amount of light into the tank that price point doesn't look as attractive.

 

[fragit]

Any recommendations for a 48x20x24 (l,w,h) mixed heavy on the sps?

 

[mcarroll]

Any recommendations for a 48x20x24 (l,w,h) mixed heavy on the sps?

Almost any light can do that. I can't think of any that won't. [emoji3]. Unfortunately your use case cannot just be "growing SPS". (Unless you're OK with just getting any old light and making do. That can definitely work.)

You need a meter to make sure the tank is getting the correct amount of light no matter what you buy or build though. A Luxmeter is the place to start. A handheld unit is only $15 and you can get apps for free.

Power usage, cost, lenses, emitter layout/coverage, mounting height, ability to dim, etc. all will figure in. What's important to you out of all that?

 

[fragit]

@mcarroll I am well aware of the lux meter I wish I new about them years ago. I've read a few threads here about their usefulness. As for the other options I definitely want something dimmable, and I'm okay if it has controllability built in or a cheap controller as an add on like the kessils. I would like to have enough coverage for most of the tank but if there are lower par reading on the edges that's okay as I plan on putting lps on the outer margins. Mounting height would be anywhere between 12-20 inches. The biggest problem I have with some of the models I've read reviews on is the disco ball effect and that is something I definitely don't want. Cost is a factor as well and would like to stay under a grand. Any suggestions now?

 

[reefjerk]

If I might chime back in here since other options are being thrown around, I ponder why you aren't asking which Metal Halide to get instead of which LED?

I was trying to stay on topic which is why I didn't suggest Metal Halide. They are really the best choice all around.

Aside from the Kessils and perhaps the Orpheks being suggested, generly speaking the LEDs don't blend very well, especially for the hefty price.
Start buying multiple LED fixtures and were talking a fair amount of wattage consumed for inferior lighting also. Don't forget about that controller! :)

Factor in the coral you may lose and the LED isn't so cheap anymore.

I have tried LEDs at all price points and recently switched to Metal Halide. Its pretty much a night and day difference.
Sure you can fade the colours and the brightness with LEDs, big deal. Too much to think about, too easy to get it wrong.

My LED experiment with a mixed reef was mediocre at best. (Kessil A360W over 10" high tank)
Most things stayed basically the same size as when I bought them, the rest slowly withered away. (SPS etc.) Except for my Pink Texas Trash Paly's, I think they grow in the dark.
Turning those knobs is almost a fools errand. The LED has already decided what grows and what goes.

I thought I would try a temporary 50W halide on a magnetic ballast, the change was immediate. So I decided to get 150W HQI setup with a magnetic ballast and I'm not looking back at least as primary lighting is concerned.
I will probably run some T5 or LED as well for diffuse dusk and dawn light, to shorten my "high noon" photo-period which should ideally be around 4 hours, in my opinion.

Financially it works out, I'm barely using any extra power since my heater doesn't run when the light is on. When I get my dusk and dawn lights factored in I might end up using less power compared to using the Kessil full time.

Since my recent switch to Halide a couple of weeks ago, I've seen more growth in 2 days then I have in 2 months, no exaggeration. EVERYTHING in the tank is doing great now, stuff that was slowly declining made a complete turnaround.

I actually prefer the look to. It has 85% of the "pop" that my Kessil had, but without the tank looking dim blue and clowns looking black. Now I still get some "pop" and tangerine orange clowns with white sand too boot!
At the moment I am just using the factory 14K bulb that came with the fixture, I was worried I was going to NEED LEDs to have the some "pop", fortunately I don't.
I am also going to try a 14K Phoenix or 20K Radium in the future, but am satisfied with what I have now.

 

[fragit]

And for me it's rose last two thing you mentioned,bulbs. Needing to replace them a constant cost. Having to worry about spectrum loss as they increase in age. And the heat factor my tank is going to be in a very small enclosed space and the added heat from a halide will not work for my application. There are so many sick LED SPS tanks out there they do work and work well you can't deny it.

 

[reefjerk]

Bulb cost isn't much of a concern. With the money I got from selling the LEDs, I was able to buy new halide everything (For two tanks) and still have money left over for a few bulbs.

Now heat can be a ***** for some people, I understand that. Some have hoods and can't put hot lights like that in there. I prefer rimless tanks with pendants so heat is a non-issue.
Also to be fair, an enclosed hood can be a problem for almost any lighting technology.

Sure I saw a few "sick LED SPS" tanks too when I was buying into the whole LED thing, but in hindsight I wonder the merit in displaying an obviously multiple year old tank with LEDs that have only been out a few months....
In hindsight I saw way more threads with experienced reefers going back to metal halide, I should have paid more attention to that but I was too fixated on the LEDs and didn't want to hear it I guess.

 

[mcarroll]

@mcarroll I am well aware of the lux meter I wish I new about them years ago. I've read a few threads here about their usefulness. As for the other options I definitely want something dimmable, and I'm okay if it has controllability built in or a cheap controller as an add on like the kessils. I would like to have enough coverage for most of the tank but if there are lower par reading on the edges that's okay as I plan on putting lps on the outer margins. Mounting height would be anywhere between 12-20 inches. The biggest problem I have with some of the models I've read reviews on is the disco ball effect and that is something I definitely don't want. Cost is a factor as well and would like to stay under a grand. Any suggestions now?

The Meter
Don't wait on picking your light to get the meter! Head to AmaBayGateAzonMart and order one! Shouldn't be more than $15-$20 including shipping. If you have an iphone, check out Galactica Luxmeter (free) to get yourself started. (The lux meter may come straight from China so there could be a significant wait.) :)

The Light
One thing to consider is that commercial fixtures are always going to be the most expensive options. A DIY for your tank of a light like mine would cost <=$200. Basic colors, on/off functionality, nothing fancy except happy corals.

To light a 48" x 20" tank from 12", you'd need something with something in the range of 60º or 80º lenses. At 20" you'd need something like 30º lenses. This assumes you want to light the whole tank, but not light the room it's in nor grow excess algae on your glass. Most commercial fixtures make enough "compromises" that they struggle with those three items.

I think you've got some commercial options at 12", but at 20" you'd have to do some finagling to make something work - there just aren't many (any at all?) fixtures that make good use of lenses at all, let alone powerful lenses like 30º. (My DIY fixture does.)

Check out the Orbit Marine Pro, Kessils Narrow lens options, Maxspect's default might not be too bad even at 90º, but opt for a Razor that's "a bit too long" vs one that's "a bit too short" as the edges of 90º light are exceedingly dim....as well as any others you can think of with lenses in the range of 60º to 80º.

BTW, 68º is what I calculated as "ideal"...the corals aren't that particular, so I say 60-80.
My go-to triangle calculator: http://ostermiller.org/calc/triangle.html

 

[stunreefer]

but in hindsight I wonder the merit in displaying an obviously multiple year old tank with LEDs that have only been out a few months....

This is a growth sequence from Sanjay Joshi after he switched to Radion's. He is, IMHO, the person to ask about any reef lighting. He's been loving these LED's after switching from halides.

The tech is there now in LED's, no doubt.

I still enjoy my T5 light as there's nothing wrong with it :)

 

[reefwiser]

The problem with MH is that with the 2007 Energy bill they are being phased out of manufacturing.

 

[reefjerk]

This is a growth sequence from Sanjay Joshi after he switched to Radion's. He is, IMHO, the person to ask about any reef lighting. He's been loving these LED's after switching from halides.


The tech is there now in LED's, no doubt.

I still enjoy my T5 light as there's nothing wrong with it :)

I don't know what to tell ya, I am certainly no Sanjay, I can only tell you what worked for a hack like me.

There are too many variables presenting those pictures to me, the really don't mean very much unfortunately.

For 2 1/2 years I played with LED, tried Halide then BAM I got the results I was looking for.

The reality is I had to switch to save my livestock.
Just a couple of examples, my favorite watermelon chalice was only 10% of it's original size and even a cool orange zoa colony was down to a couple heads not even an 1/8th wide.
Probably lost at least half dozen SPS over that time that either bleached or slowly receded away. I was chasing water parameters when really it was the lights.
The Zoas have a head that will soon be 1/4" or so and the chalice has grown about 15% and all the holes of exposed skeleton have healed over. (Yes it was almost done, another week or two and it would have been in the garbage)

I see obvious results with the Halides, I am smitten with them.
They give me much more confidence going forward.

 

[reefjerk]

The problem with MH is that with the 2007 Energy bill they are being phased out of manufacturing.

That would be unfortunate, I guess I better stock up on bulbs! lol

Hope it doesn't effect Canada.
At first glance it's mentioning something about mercury vapor ballasts and not metal halide bulbs specifically....fingers crossed.

 

[reefjerk]

At the risk of going too off topic, it appears that metal halides are fine to manufacture provided the ballasts meet the efficiency requirements.
(94% efficiency for probe-start magnetic ballasts, 88% for pulse-start magnetic ballasts. 92% for electronic ballasts 250 watts and higher, 90% for electronic ballasts under 250watts)

It doesn't effect fixtures 150w and under, fixtures rated for use in wet locations, ones that contain a ballast rated to operate above 50C plus a few more that I'm not sure apply to this hobby specifically.

Blacklights and appliances also seem to be exempt.
Although I'm not sure if these two apply to future manufacturing or not, I think the fridge here has an incandescent bulb, I would have to check, but it's only a year or so old.

I am getting the impression they are actually encouraging use of halides as replacements for devices that may have run mercury vapor bulbs.

 

[ReefCartel]

I'd be interested to know the measurements you took at the water surface in those pics?

Noticed there were somemeasurements not associated to corals. ;)

I'll assume those were all at the water surface vs up near the light fixture.

PAR of 2000+ is in excess of actual "full sunlight" (can be dangerous), but it looks like those peak areas are pretty small.

Do you recall any other surface measurements such as between the two fixtures or at the edges of the tank?

I used a Quantum par meter Wand and placed the "Eye" at points where i thought i would be placing corals. The 2000+ on the very top surface was actually before i put the PAR meter in the water. I was just curious to see the values i guess lol

 

[mcarroll]

I don't know what to tell ya, I am certainly no Sanjay, I can only tell you what worked for a hack like me.[...]

It's likely you had a better (or less-bad) example to follow in setting up your halides. If you weren't using a meter to set up your lights, it's actually too easy to go wrong with LEDs...or any lighting if you don't have a good example to follow. (A "good example" you can actually follow can be difficult to find.)

It's especially easy to go wrong if you are transitioning a tank of established corals to LED from some other lighting source...I can attest to this. :( I think on one hand frags are more adaptable and on the other hand, larger, less-adaptable colonies tend to grow to the surface, where they are more exposed, when mature. Most of my colonies were breaking the water surface when I had to switch to LEDs.

It's a long story, but in a nutshell: I had no meter at the time and roached everything in the top six inches of the tank....around 10 gallons of coral skeleton (from a 50 gallon tank) once I pruned it all out. :oops: Sad, but the tank was so overgrown that some pruning was going to have to happen one way or another anyway, sooner than later.

 

[acesfull44]

Instead of exclusively focusing on which fixture to get - I see nothing wrong with the Kessils if you like the light they generate - consider focusing on how much light you are applying to the tank.

What this means is to use a light meter of some sort.

I personally cannot recommend a PAR meter due to price, but a handheld lux meter ($15) or even lux app on your smart phone ($free) can do the trick! (Of course a par meter will too, if you already have one. :-). Also, "Galactica Luxmeter" is one app that seems to work well.)

As long as you are providing correct light levels over the tank it doesn't matter how deep your tank is too much.

Technically, anything between 20,000 and 80,000 lx should be fine. 40,000 to 50,000 seems to be the sweet spot. Perhaps shoot for 50,000+ in a deeper tank, but still in the neighborhood of 50,000.

You have plenty of the depth to move corals down, so you could go closer to 80,000 or 100,000 Lux, but corals growing anywhere close to the surface would be at risk of bleaching.

I tried searching this app with no luck![emoji20]