long term led par levels discussion

[Armydogracing]

Thanks for sharing everyone

I’m not against leds at all I just prefer the t5 led look

Definitely some good things being posted hopefully we can see some more hard data from when a person first got them to now.

Increasing power I can see as a benefit for sure but I guess is that power hindered from use. So instead of increasing 5% are you now having to increase 10% to achieve the goal. Does running at an increase intensity hinder the performance more over time.

Where is your apex par meter at in the Tank @Newb73 ?

My sand bed in my 300 I have 250par

 

[Armydogracing]

6 months growth on my purple stylo led and t5

 

[Newb73]

Thanks for sharing everyone

I’m not against leds at all I just prefer the t5 led look

Definitely some good things being posted hopefully we can see some more hard date from when a person first got them to now.

Increasing power I can see as a benefit for sure but I guess is that power hindered from use. So instead of increasing 5% are you now having to increase 10% to achieve the goal. Does running at an increase intensity hinder the performance more over time.

Where is your apex par meter at in the Tank @Newb73 ?

My sand bed in my 300 I have 250par

It's about 10 inches deep if i had to guess.

I have it half way between a hydra 52 and an A360

Much lower par levels deeper in tank.

Dana Ridle has a nice talk from Macna where he did some research on growth and par and found it was much less than people think. Flow and alk made up more of a "trio" of variables.

You might want to look it up.

 

[Armydogracing]

I guess in my 16 years in the hobby I get the best colors out of higher par. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it

 

[Streetcred]

I think we can probably all be agreed that LEDs don't last for 50,000 hours ... my first expensive fixtures, which replaced my beautiful MHs, started to drop out LEDs after 15,000 hours.

Now using GHL Mitras LX 6200-HV (2 years) no problems but really struggling to find the right spectrum setup.

 

[Armydogracing]

The picture on Facebook that R2R shared of this thread is really what I’m looking for to see if anything has changed.

 

[oreo54]

I think we can probably all be agreed that LEDs don't last for 50,000 hours ... my first expensive fixtures, which replaced my beautiful MHs, started to drop out LEDs after 15,000 hours.

4 years @ 10hrs/day...
adding how many and which adds info..
violets are notoriously short lived..
"expensive" 5 years plus ago is even cheap lights..

not defending LEd's but blanket statements don't really help anything.. on either "side"..
50,000 hrs @ 10hr/day is 13.7 years..no don't expect 100% at 14 years..

 

[ThatOneGuy2121]

I have had my led fixture for a little over 4 years and have seen little change in PAR readings. I have only checked it with a friend's meter a few times but the readings were consistent. I believe it was around 80 at the bottom ( 24" deep) during it's peak of the light cycle. The light is only running at 50% so it' not full intensity. I do agree that the light does have to diminish over time but the PAR radiation levels may stay within an acceptable parameter over the life of the bulb. i.e I have a strip LED fixture that was 10,000k over my refugium. Now, 4 years later it is closer to 9000k. Just a theory and thought I would share.

 

[Armydogracing]

So let’s say initial cost of good leds like 3 Radion pro xr30 g4 to light a 125g 6ft Tank is $2397

60” ati 8 bulb fixture 711.97 plus 8 bulbs which is 191.92 so 903.89 for initial startup

191.92 x 5 more years of bulbs=959.60

So 6yrs of bulbs and fixture is 1863.49

These are without anything going wrong with the lights or power consumption

640w from the T5s not sure on the leds but I’m sure similar.

On my 300DD 3 led fixtures wouldn’t work well I would need 5 at a minimum but most likely I would do 6 to get coverage if I wanted only leds so my initial cost would be much more.

I currently run a coralvue 8 bulb t5 fixture that I have had for many years I added 4 cheap leds to the fixture and took out 2 bulbs

My t5 fixture is 8 years old haven’t replace anything on it to make it work.

The leds I had on the other hand I put probably another 500 into them for parts.


But like I said I’m not against leds pick w.e. lighting that makes you happy I mainly want to see data of them holding their par or if they loose par over time

 

[Armydogracing]

I have had my led fixture for a little over 4 years and have seen little change in PAR readings. I have only checked it with a friend's meter a few times but the readings were consistent. I believe it was around 80 at the bottom ( 24" deep) during it's peak of the light cycle. The light is only running at 50% so it' not full intensity. I do agree that the light does have to diminish over time but the PAR radiation levels may stay within an acceptable parameter over the life of the bulb. i.e I have a strip LED fixture that was 10,000k over my refugium. Now, 4 years later it is closer to 9000k. Just a theory and thought I would share.

What kind of par meter?

 

[Armydogracing]

Btw the super blue tube in the fixture is a euro e5 blue pop led tube

 

[ThatOneGuy2121]

What kind of par meter?

He's not answering me but I know he got it from BRS, i want to say it was an apogee.

 

[Armydogracing]

He's not answering me but I know he got it from BRS, i want to say it was an apogee.

Depending on which sensor or model it could be off by 30-60 or more that you would add to the number you see. There was a thing on reefbuilders about it

 

[ThatOneGuy2121]

So let’s say initial cost of good leds like 3 Radion pro xr30 g4 to light a 125g 6ft Tank is $2397

60” ati 8 bulb fixture 711.97 plus 8 bulbs which is 191.92 so 903.89 for initial startup

191.92 x 5 more years of bulbs=959.60

So 6yrs of bulbs and fixture is 1863.49

These are without anything going wrong with the lights or power consumption

640w from the T5s not sure on the leds but I’m sure similar.

On my 300DD 3 led fixtures wouldn’t work well I would need 5 at a minimum but most likely I would do 6 to get coverage if I wanted only leds so my initial cost would be much more.

I currently run a coralvue 8 bulb t5 fixture that I have had for many years I added 4 cheap leds to the fixture and took out 2 bulbs

My t5 fixture is 8 years old haven’t replace anything on it to make it work.

The leds I had on the other hand I put probably another 500 into them for parts.


But like I said I’m not against leds pick w.e. lighting that makes you happy I mainly want to see data of them holding their par or if they loose par over time

Tank looks beautiful, I like the lighting combination. I know many people that run only T5 and have great success. I am running the radion xr30

Depending on which sensor or model it could be off by 30-60 or more that you would add to the number you see. There was a thing on reefbuilders about it

So let’s say initial cost of good leds like 3 Radion pro xr30 g4 to light a 125g 6ft Tank is $2397

60” ati 8 bulb fixture 711.97 plus 8 bulbs which is 191.92 so 903.89 for initial startup

191.92 x 5 more years of bulbs=959.60

So 6yrs of bulbs and fixture is 1863.49

These are without anything going wrong with the lights or power consumption

640w from the T5s not sure on the leds but I’m sure similar.

On my 300DD 3 led fixtures wouldn’t work well I would need 5 at a minimum but most likely I would do 6 to get coverage if I wanted only leds so my initial cost would be much more.

I currently run a coralvue 8 bulb t5 fixture that I have had for many years I added 4 cheap leds to the fixture and took out 2 bulbs

My t5 fixture is 8 years old haven’t replace anything on it to make it work.

The leds I had on the other hand I put probably another 500 into them for parts.


But like I said I’m not against leds pick w.e. lighting that makes you happy I mainly want to see data of them holding their par or if they loose par over time

Depending on which sensor or model it could be off by 30-60 or more that you would add to the number you see. There was a thing on reefbuilders about it

Oh really? Dang so expensive to be off that much... :/ I've been tempted to buy one but not if its unreliable.

 

[Armydogracing]

Tank looks beautiful, I like the lighting combination. I know many people that run only T5 and have great success. I am running the radion xr30

Thanks I appreciate it. I run the leds cause I love the shimmer like I had with my metal halides but no where near the same heat

 

[alton]

The original statement of 50,000 hours for leds was a 3% drop for ten years or 30% which is the standard for the lighting/lamp community. If you are wondering about lamps the same test for T8 lamps are 30,000 hours, metal halide 20,000 hours and T5's 20,000 hours and these numbers are based on better quality lamps and leds.
http://www.lighting.philips.com/mai...s/life-and-light-output/a-life-of-50000-hours
http://assets2.sylvania.com/media/bin/osram-dam-1377492/OCTRON_CURVALUME_ECOLOGI_ 6INCH_(FL049).pdf
https://www.energyavenue.com/Light-Bulbs/High-Intensity-Discharge/Metal-Halide-Lamps/20000-Hours
http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/nlpip/lightingAnswers/lat5/pc8.asp
As we all know Halide lamps for our aquariums are good for about 6,000 hours at a ten percent drop in PAR not the 20,000 advertised. T5HO are about 4,000 Hours at a 10% drop in PAR. And no one I know uses T8
The first leds for aquariums where not good and I remember some of my friends where changing their AI pucks faster than I was changing my Radium lamps.
So using the lamp formula 50,000 hours / 3 = 4.56 years if you ran them at 100%. The advantage to leds is your fixture the first year should be set at no more than 70% and increase the setting 3% each year for ten. (all in a perfect world) My oldest build my led fixture is going on almost five years and I have it set on 75% with a manual dimmer. For me nothing beat the MH / T12 VHO Actinic look or growth but but VHO is gone, MH well? I can't remember the last time my company installed a MH parking lot light fixture?

 

[Armydogracing]

I can't remember the last time my company installed a MH parking lot light fixture?

We just replaced our mh lights outside of our business and all of the t12 on the inside of it last month with leds

 

[oreo54]

Well back o this a bit.
Use 90%...

Keep in mind this is "old"..

due to the longetivity of the diodes newer measurements are leaning to "system" measurements to include all asst .electronics..
Capacitors in power supplies are STILL #1 failure point..

 

[Armydogracing]

Well back o this a bit.
Use 90%...

Keep in mind this is "old"..

due to the longetivity of the diodes newer measurements are leaning to "system" measurements to include all asst .electronics..
Capacitors in power supplies are STILL #1 failure point..

I would still like to hear from a person that logged their results and physically wrote them down on paper with dates or a picture would be even better with a time stamp from when they got them and then today. More of a real world logging I suppose you could say.

Proof is in the pudding . I’m beginning to think I need to run my own test. Might have to shut off the T5s and test the par level from the leds then compare in a year with pictures and percentages.

 

[oreo54]

I understand what you are attempting but caution you on what is really obtainable.
Worrying about PAR decreases in 10 years is a bit much..
Anyways how the pros are wrestling w/ it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwieyf-4lLrYAhUU6mMKHUf6C6AQFggxMAE&url=http://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/XLamp_lumen_maintenance.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1M0oDOoyrPOOzrDklnju8n
http://www.lighting.philips.com/mai...e-life-of-leds-measured-as-lumen-depreciation
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwieyf-4lLrYAhUU6mMKHUf6C6AQFgg9MAM&url=http://cool.conservation-us.org/byorg/us-doe/lifetime_white_leds_aug16_r1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0SdTd3Ud7ZJGIrEdCsaOUv

There is one more "gotcha" here.. A tube or bulb may be rated at 20000 hours WHEN the bulb survives that long.. Many fail long before reaching their lumen maintenance point.
LESS likely w/ LED's...

And there is the future..

Most manufacturers of high-power white LEDs estimate a lifetime of around 30,000 hours to the 70% lumen maintenance level, assuming operation at 350 milliamps (mA) constant current and maintaining junction temperature at no higher than 90°C. However, LED durability continues to improve, allowing for higher drive currents and higher operating temperatures. Specific manufacturer data should be consulted because some LEDs available today are rated for 50,000 hours at 1000 mA with junction temperature up to 120°C.2

248F for us in the US...........