Losing a fish every month or so

[ScottB]

I apologise for the long post; just trying to get it all out there.

Tank is RSR 525, SPS dominant, running about 6 years now. I track everything in APEX. Aside from salinity creep, nothing sticks out. Acros all too happy and now crowding each other out. Very stable setup for corals, and very limited fish turnover until say mid summer. Since then, I "randomly" lose a fish that otherwise seemed healthy the day before. No visible signs of illness before disappearance except for my Purple Tang as described below. I have 90 lbs of SPS overgrown rock so I rarely ever see a carcass.

Pajama cardinal (4 yrs)
Cromis 1 (3 yrs)
Cromis 2 (3 yrs)
Male clown ( 8 yrs)
Potters angel (3 yrs; but harassed in months preceding)
Purple Tang (4 yrs); fine one night, euthanized the next night. Completely covered in "molt". Heart braking. Hand fed that fish nori for years.
Algae blenny (4-5 yrs)
Replacement Female clown (6 months; male looks fine)

Current occupants:
Azure damsel(8 yrs), PBT (1 yr), Yellow tang(5 yrs), Coral Beauty(4 yrs), Marine Betta(3 yrs), 2X yellow coris(1 yr), melanurus (6 months newest fish), copious CUC.

Possible contributors:
a) I've been supplementing mysis & soaked nori with @Paul B DIY recipe. This started about 3-4 months ago after recognizing the pace of losses.
b) The tank is 2-Part dosed 144ml of ALK and Ca via APEX and this leads to gradual salinity creep... 1.026, 1.027, 1.0275 until I drain some water and let the ATO even it out. My APEX charts don't look scary and never exceed 36.6.
c) In the adjacent family room, the couches get stain treated (they are white; don't ask) a couple times a year. The guys tell me there are no VOCs. No harsh smells, but a pump sprayer is used. Distance of 30-40 feet away. Nothing immediate happens, but maybe it is something.
d) At startup, I did have in Ich outbreak. Lost only a (slightly bullied) flame angel. Tangs (some of which are now in another system) and clowns all pulled through. No fallow period. So it is in there, but have not seen any spots since the recovery.

So the purple tang is the only one I saw "sick" and she looked awful, like a 100% burn victim. Whatever it is, it kills quick and without any visible prelude. Then a month or two goes by before the next fish disappears. The last fish added was the melanurus (5-6 mos) and it looks fine. The PBT is the tank boss, but only occasionally chases the YT. No other noticeable hostilities since the Potter past. Checked for stray voltage a few times and just got the usual noise levels around 10v.

Give me some ideas beyond going fallow and QT? Or is that really the only way to "assure" resolving?

 

[nickkohrn]

Have you sent in a water sample to an ICP analysis lab? That may eliminate any suspicions from the furniture cleanings.
From the photo, it's clear that your corals are doing well. Regarding that alone, I would say that you're likely dealing with some form of life that kills quickly. Based upon your knowledge of having Ich in your system, I'm not sure that I can offer any advice other than quarantining your fish at this point, which I'm certain would be a challenge since you'd have to catch fish in a packed system.

 

[MrsBugmaster]

It could be Brooklynella, which will look like the skin is sloughing off which may be what you are describing as molting.
Read up on it here:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/brooklynella.247938/

This is also a good gthread to read:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-disease-index-pictorial-guide.285708/

Quarantine and fallow is the only way to eradicate the disease.

 

[ScottB]

Have you sent in a water sample to an ICP analysis lab? That may eliminate any suspicions from the furniture cleanings.
From the photo, it's clear that your corals are doing well. Based on that alone, I would say that you're likely dealing with some form of life that kills quickly. Based upon your knowledge of having Ich in your system, I'm not sure that I can offer any advice other than quarantining your fish at this point, which I'm certain would be a challenge since you'd have to catch fish in a packed system.

Thanks. Yes, I did an ICP but no contaminants found; just low on Iodine (fixed that) and Arsenic!

 

[ScottB]

It could be Brooklynella, which will look like the skin is sloughing off which may be what you are describing as molting.
Read up on it here:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/brooklynella.247938/

This is also a good gthread to read:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-disease-index-pictorial-guide.285708/

Quarantine and fallow is the only way to eradicate the disease.

I will read up, but yeah, picture that on a 4 inch purple tang. Awful. Brook is quick, right?

 

[h2so4hurts]

Hard to imagine it's a parasite like Brook or Velvet killing your fish. When those hit they hit hard, they're not known for killing one or two at a time. Same with crypto. It seems your tank is stable and the last thing you want to do is over react. Do you run a UV sterilizer? It won't eliminate any parasites in your system but it will prevent massive out breaks and limit the degree of reinfection

 

[Reef AquaCult]

It sucks but you probably should go fallow, otherwise it’s just a gamble. You have ich already anyway and probably brook or velvet based on the rapidity of symptoms.

 

[ScottB]

Hard to imagine it's a parasite like Brook or Velvet killing your fish. When those hit they hit hard, they're not known for killing one or two at a time. Same with crypto. It seems your tank is stable and the last thing you want to do is over react. Do you run a UV sterilizer? It won't eliminate any parasites in your system but it will prevent massive out breaks and limit the degree of reinfection

I hope you are right. Each time I lost a fish, I would be deathly afraid for the lights to come up the next morning. I'd gradually return to complacency before the next would disappear. Repeat.

UV! That is brilliant. Not a cure, but a management tool. I run one on my frag for dinos, but never put one on the DT.

Thank you.

 

[ccs]

Your fish disappears as in you never see them again or do you remove them when they dye? Maybe something eating them..? Wouldn't be the first time in a big established tank.

 

[h2so4hurts]

There are many many reefers that manage the parasites in their tank. Even those that quarantine religiously likely have low level infestations. Yes, you should definitely quarantine to get your new animals stable, but most people are delusional if they think they don't have these parasites in their system. Unless you're QTing everything for 72 days + (I mean everything, especially your frags, CUC, etc), there's a good chance you have these things in there. Your fish can fight them off easily in a stable system, it's when they're stressed and their immune systems become compromised that these parasites are allowed to take over. Try UV and see if it helps (I like the Lifegard Pro-Max units - run 1/6th the recommended flow to kill parasites). Feed your fish well and don't do anything drastic. Removing your fish and going fallow is only helpful in a severe outbreak and in that case it's really the only option to try to save your fish. So unless every fish you have is showing signs of disease, I'd hold off, especially since it's not obvious to me that's what's killing them.

 

[ScottB]

Your fish disappears as in you never see them again or do you remove them when they dye? Maybe something eating them..? Wouldn't be the first time in a big established tank.

Well the purple tang I found still alive, but had to euthanize. I found part of the blenny uneaten. Pretty sure the CUC team just drags the carcass back into the rock and gets to work. I feed twice a day and keep track of who shows up and their general condition.

 

[ScottB]

There are many many reefers that manage the parasites in their tank. Even those that quarantine religiously likely have low level infestations. Yes, you should definitely quarantine to get your new animals stable, but most people are delusional if they think they don't have these parasites in their system. Unless you're QTing everything for 72 days + (I mean everything, especially your frags, CUC, etc), there's a good chance you have these things in there. Your fish can fight them off easily in a stable system, it's when they're stressed and their immune systems become compromised that these parasites are allowed to take over. Try UV and see if it helps (I like the Lifegard Pro-Max units - run 1/6th the recommended flow to kill parasites). Feed your fish well and don't do anything drastic. Removing your fish and going fallow is only helpful in a severe outbreak and in that case it's really the only option to try to save your fish. So unless every fish you have is showing signs of disease, I'd hold off, especially since it's not obvious to me that's what's killing them.

Thanks. I've not had much turnover in fish population over the span of the tank, but I have corals frequently going in/out. Thus REAL diligent QT feels impossible to me too.

Will look into the Lifeguard UV. I am a little space constrained so footprint will play into the decision as well.

As to new / replacement fish, I have been holding off until I have a better sense of what is happening, but I really rely on fish waste as a coral food source. Once I have the UV up for a bit, I will replace my herbivores at least.

Thanks again.

 

[Big G]

Sorry to hear about your losses. Gut wrenching. Almost quit the hobby after velvet and the associated bacterial infections wiped out my tank. Pretty sure it came in on a coral. So now I QT everything "wet". Takes some of the fun out for sure.

I've been adding Beta Glucan to my fish's food. Heck my wife and I both take it to boost our immune systems. Then I found out it can benefit fish as well. I highly recommend it. I've seen it work on annoying viruses like Lympho. Here's a link. I hope it helps a bit. This is one I use. It's produced from algaes. I order it from Amazon.

Feature Article: Beta Glucan As A Biological Defense Modulator: Helping Fish To Help Themselves

Wouldn’t it be great if there were one thing that we could give any sick fish that could help it? Aquarists dream of a “magic bullet” that could be used as a treatment for a plethora of problems.

www.advancedaquarist.com

 

[Birdbrains?]

Your fish can fight them off easily in a stable system, it's when they're stressed and their immune systems become compromised that these parasites are allowed to take over. Try UV and see if it helps (I like the Lifegard Pro-Max units - run 1/6th the recommended flow to kill parasites). Feed your fish well and don't do anything drastic. Removing your fish and going fallow is only helpful in a severe outbreak and in that case it's really the only option to try to save your fish.

+1 to this.

Also, you said that your purple tang looked burned, could this be caused by one of your corals if the fish got suddenly pushed against the stingers? I have read about similar situations with fishes slowly dying/disappearing where it ends up being tracked back to a problematic blenny slamming them up against the LR.

 

[Halal Hotdog]

Hard to imagine it's a parasite like Brook or Velvet killing your fish. When those hit they hit hard, they're not known for killing one or two at a time. Same with crypto. It seems your tank is stable and the last thing you want to do is over react. Do you run a UV sterilizer? It won't eliminate any parasites in your system but it will prevent massive out breaks and limit the degree of reinfection

From what was described, external parasite seems very likely. Both can kill fish one at a time based on parasitic load in the water and thickness of slime coat of the fish.

There are many many reefers that manage the parasites in their tank. Even those that quarantine religiously likely have low level infestations. Yes, you should definitely quarantine to get your new animals stable, but most people are delusional if they think they don't have these parasites in their system. Unless you're QTing everything for 72 days + (I mean everything, especially your frags, CUC, etc), there's a good chance you have these things in there. Your fish can fight them off easily in a stable system, it's when they're stressed and their immune systems become compromised that these parasites are allowed to take over. Try UV and see if it helps (I like the Lifegard Pro-Max units - run 1/6th the recommended flow to kill parasites). Feed your fish well and don't do anything drastic. Removing your fish and going fallow is only helpful in a severe outbreak and in that case it's really the only option to try to save your fish. So unless every fish you have is showing signs of disease, I'd hold off, especially since it's not obvious to me that's what's killing them.

I disagree, with proper medicated QT someone can absolutely have a parasite free tank. I medicated my fish before introducing them into the DT and regardless of stressor they never showed any sign of having a low level parasitic infection. A parasitic infection sounds likely based on description and removal and treatment is the best way to proceed.

 

[Birdbrains?]

I disagree, with proper medicated QT someone can absolutely have a parasite free tank. I medicated my fish before introducing them into the DT and regardless of stressor they never showed any sign of having a low level parasitic infection. A parasitic infection sounds likely based on description and removal and treatment is the best way to proceed.

The problem with attempting to keep a 100% sterile environment for a community of fishes, is that they end up having zero natural immunity, which heightens the chance of the entire community being wiped out.

 

[h2so4hurts]

Sorry, you can medicate your fish all you want but if you're not quarantining literally everything before it touches your tank then it's very likely you have most of those things in there already. I religiously quarantine and treat with chloroquine phosphate for their entire stay in QT and I'm not going to delude myself into thinking there aren't things looking in my DT that I don't want there because I don't QT my corals, nems, or CUC... And I bet you don't either.

 

[Halal Hotdog]

The problem with attempting to keep a 100% sterile environment for a community of fishes, is that they end up having zero natural immunity, which heightens the chance of the entire community being wiped out.

Couple of misused terms. You cannot sterilize a living system. I personally feel treating and having no parasites in my system is the way to go, I have tried the other way and didn't care for it at all.

Sorry, you can medicate your fish all you want but if you're not quarantining literally everything before it touches your tank then it's very likely you have most of those things in there already. I religiously quarantine and treat with chloroquine phosphate for their entire stay in QT and I'm not going to delude myself into thinking there aren't things looking in my DT that I don't want there because I don't QT my corals, nems, or CUC... And I bet you don't either.

If you treat correctly you can absolutely be parasite free, that doesn't mean you will be void of anything and everything. I am specifically speaking of parasites.

 

[ScottB]

From what was described, external parasite seems very likely. Both can kill fish one at a time based on parasitic load in the water and thickness of slime coat of the fish.

I disagree, with proper medicated QT someone can absolutely have a parasite free tank. I medicated my fish before introducing them into the DT and regardless of stressor they never showed any sign of having a low level parasitic infection. A parasitic infection sounds likely based on description and removal and treatment is the best way to proceed.

Part 1: Yes, my experience suggests you are correct in that parasites don't always overwhelm all occupants at the same time. Most of these fish lived for 3+ years with some level of Ich in the system for certain. Not sure why my luck is running out now, but it seems to be so. Gradually.

Part 2: I agree parasite free is possible. Unnatural, but possible. And I can envision doing this with fish only. However I cannot imagine this in practise when it comes to every rock, frag, invert, colony that passes between my two systems and others. I have a coral QT of sorts that has worked but takes only a few weeks. 70+ days for every piece is a whole different game I do not have the bandwidth for given other commitments.

Purity is beyond my resources. Maintaining fish nutrition: Check. Maintaining water stability: Check. Avoiding fish aggression: uhhh... B-. Implementing UV to reduce parasite population: soon to Check.

So far, I have one suggestion that the parasite is Brook, but no others. I know what Ich looks like and have not seen it in years in this tank (although it should still be there as there was never a fallow period after I saw it).

When it takes a fish it is really really fast. But a month or more goes by before the next fish is gone. What parasite behaves this way?

I do appreciate all your input.

 

[Birdbrains?]

Couple of misused terms. You cannot sterilize a living system. I personally feel treating and having no parasites in my system is the way to go, I have tried the other way and didn't care for it all.

Actually a sterile environment doesn't mean nothing is in it, it means selectivism is applied to what is allowed in an environment - people grow stuff in sterile environments all the time, it is actually more or less how humans prefer to do things

If you treat correctly you can absolutely be parasite free, that doesn't mean you will be void of anything and everything. I am specifically speaking of parasites.

Nah, humans can't cure everything but we can overplay the benefits of our personal choices easily.