Lost... Need help understanding H2O

[Subsea]

Thanks for everyone’s help, Biggest thing I found out is to do a large H2O change, increase temp, and don’t disturb the sandbed. My personal opinion is when I remove my fish I disturbed the sand. I remember watching bubbles roll up. But, I was in the moment of catching fishes. I’m starting to tank cycle again.
Some of the help, people need to read before asking. Never put the rock back in DT, it’s medicated, Duh. All fish out of DT, how can I cure ick with fish still in there. Watched enough YouTube videos on fallow 76 days average. Quarantine tank treated with seachem cupramine.
As far as the tank on transfer. Broke down that day and set it back up the same day. Next day fishes were added after the water cleared up. Fast forward to summer added kole tang got ick. Here we are now.
I again I believe it was my doing. I disturbed the sandbed. Barely fed the DT tank during fallow period. Then I had to disturb everything again to save my purple tang and Hoeven’s wrasse, just not as bad. That’s why I left in the mollies and chromis for tank cycling

For certain, your fish did not die of ich overnight. However, your display can easily still have ich because it was not fallow for the 80 day cycle, if this is true: “That’s why I left the mollies and chromis for tank cycling”.

PSS: If by our questions, we irritate, consider that a detailed chronological log on your part would eliminate some of that. I read your thread more than once. Some things are not very clear, so, we ask questions. I read a lot of threads that can get confusing when I post to someone’s thread.

Moving along. You have been asked some very specific questions. It would help us if you answered them as well as you can.

Only two things kill fish that fast. Lack of oxygen or toxic chemicals such as ammonia or hydrogen peroxide. Your hobby test kit showed ammonia which is easily removed by denitrification bacteria. You were asked several times about how you did your cycle. Do you think that you have denitrification bacteria established. This is easily determined by continuing to test for ammonia & nitrite. The bacteria that perform denitrification are much slower to reach mature populations but you should see a continued gradual decrease as bacteria populations increase. During this process, it is necessary to continue feeding as a source of ammonia & nitrite. Denitrification bacteria operate in the facultative zone which is a low oxygen enviroment in which bacteria that normally consume oxygen from the water column must now work harder for oxygen by consuming oxygen molecule in nitrate molecule reducing nitrate to a free gas which leaves the aquarium as nutrient export.

Is your nitrifying bacteria population healthy & mature to process nutrients?

 

[Bryce73]

Quarantine Tank

 

[Mtterry]

Quarantine Tank

Early morning apparently! Got it.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for everyone’s help, Biggest thing I found out is to do a large H2O change, increase temp, and don’t disturb the sandbed. My personal opinion is when I remove my fish I disturbed the sand. I remember watching bubbles roll up. But, I was in the moment of catching fishes. I’m starting to tank cycle again.
Some of the help, people need to read before asking. Never put the rock back in DT, it’s medicated, Duh. All fish out of DT, how can I cure ick with fish still in there. Watched enough YouTube videos on fallow 76 days average. Quarantine tank treated with seachem cupramine.
As far as the tank on transfer. Broke down that day and set it back up the same day. Next day fishes were added after the water cleared up. Fast forward to summer added kole tang got ick. Here we are now.
I again I believe it was my doing. I disturbed the sandbed. Barely fed the DT tank during fallow period. Then I had to disturb everything again to save my purple tang and Hoeven’s wrasse, just not as bad. That’s why I left in the mollies and chromis for tank cycling

Actually - I re-read several times - and frankly there were several ways to interpret what you said. Even what you're saying above doesn't really completely make sense. I know you understand what you did and when you did it - but I still don't.

I thought the fish were dying after they were in the QT for weeks right after you put them BACK in the display tank? If so - disturbing the sand bed weeks before you re-added the fish back to the display tank would have no effect. (you say above you disturbed the sand when you removed the fish to put them in quarantine right)?

Also if you left Mollies and Chromis in your tank - it wasn't 'fallow'. At least that's the impression you gave - that you left mollies and chromis in the tank

As far as the 'never put the rock back in the DT its medicated, duh' comment you made - you also said "No copper in DT, just quarantine. Same rocks in quarantine tank." Which again can be read a couple different ways.

 

[Brew12]

My opinion is that this is unlikely to be a fish disease issue. Mollies have very little resistance to marine diseases and are often used as a "canary" to check tanks for diseases. If there is a marine parasite in a tank it will kill a mollie quickly.

Low oxygen does sound like a possibility. I also worry about the bubbles from the sand bed. Did they have a sour or rotten egg smell?

 

[MnFish1]

My opinion is that this is unlikely to be a fish disease issue. Mollies have very little resistance to marine diseases and are often used as a "canary" to check tanks for diseases. If there is a marine parasite in a tank it will kill a mollie quickly.

Low oxygen does sound like a possibility. I also worry about the bubbles from the sand bed. Did they have a sour or rotten egg smell?

But - the bubbles were 80 days before he re-added the fish (I think). And the bubbles could very well be N2. BTW - found this in another thread:

1. A freshwater black molly will have no immunity whatsoever to marine diseases, thus making it probable for visible symptoms to show. However, a molly which has been kept in saltwater (SW) will begin building up immunity to whatever diseases it has been exposed to, the same as any other SW fish.

 

[Brew12]

But - the bubbles were 80 days before he re-added the fish (I think). And the bubbles could very well be N2. BTW - found this in another thread:

1. A freshwater black molly will have no immunity whatsoever to marine diseases, thus making it probable for visible symptoms to show. However, a molly which has been kept in saltwater (SW) will begin building up immunity to whatever diseases it has been exposed to, the same as any other SW fish.

Very true. That is why I said it is unlikely, not that it isn't possible. While some mollies may end up gaining immunities with no assistance it wouldn't be usual. They normally require some type of assistance such as repeated cycles of exposure and treatment (this is how many scientific studies on fish immunity is done), antibiotics, UV/Ozone, or similar.

Agree that N2 is the most likely cause of the bubbles if they didn't have a sulfur smell.

I may need to re-read the timeline again. I thought he had a problem, pulled and treated all his fish. Re-added them, had some deaths, then pulled all but a few again. I'll read it again and see if I missed something.

 

[Subsea]

My opinion is that this is unlikely to be a fish disease issue. Mollies have very little resistance to marine diseases and are often used as a "canary" to check tanks for diseases. If there is a marine parasite in a tank it will kill a mollie quickly.

Low oxygen does sound like a possibility. I also worry about the bubbles from the sand bed. Did they have a sour or rotten egg smell?

I have fourth & fifth generation mollies in marine tanks outdoors. Last winter they survived 45 degree temperature. Many initially showed ich type spots for the first week from fresh water of LFS.

@Paul B and I are on the same page about the most important consideration for fish health is not eliminating pest thru quarantine but instead: a healthy, stress free environment that allows fish immune system to combat host invasion by “bad boys”: bacterial infections, virus or parasite. Considering that bacteria are the building block of any reef aquarium that moves nutrients up the food chain using complex food webs to process nutrients, I encourage all bacteria growth by feeding the tank heavily with live food frozen food and dry food of many types. Even with all of the organic food, I find it necessary to dose nitrogen.

 

[MnFish1]

This might make it easier - based on what I read through your posts - the way things went was (correct any mistakes):):

1. You got a tank which had been up for 5 years from a friend. You took the rock fish etc out of the tank and set it up in your house very quickly (i.e. very little stress) That was in February. All was well.
2. You bought a Kole tang this summer that had CI which you hadn't quarantined
3. You removed the fish and some rock (you didn't like) from the DT and put in QT and treated with Copper (did you check levels?). Rock can absorb copper.
4. When you moved the fish - you noticed bubbles from the sand (was there a sulphur smell?)
5. You left the fish in QT for 80 days - with the display tank fallow. The fish all did fine in QT.
6. When you re-added the fish into the display tank 4 of them died. You took 2 tangs out but you think you disturbed the sand bed. But the mollies and chromis you left in (and the anemones) are all doing fine. Did you notice bubbles from the sand that time?
7. You added a diamond goby (at some point after the other fish were doing well) and within a short time it was dead - but all of the other fish are fine.
8. You've posted testing of ammonia etc - which you read as 0 - but really they are higher. You checked your pH when you got home from work (which is likely when the pH is likely to be the HIGHEST - and it was around 7.8 (it is probably lower at night)

The question you asked is 'why did the goby die?' Everyone else (myself included) have been trying to help out but no one has answered the main question (which I just saw in your OP).

IMHO - none of the issues brought up so far would 'kill' the diamond goby except disease of some kind (or some hidden poison that the chromis and mollies and anemones have 'gotten used to'. I think the other fish that died have nothing to do with the goby - first of all you have fish in the tank (that are doing well). Second you have anemones in the tank that are all doing well. Thirdly - you have testing that shows parameters that aren't 'great' but they aren't bad now either.

Could the goby have had a disease and died of something unrelated to all of the other 'stuff' you reported? I guess that what I come up with. I would check an ICP test.

 

[Subsea]

For certain, your fish did not die of ich overnight. However, your display can easily still have ich because it was not fallow for the 80 day cycle, if this is true: “That’s why I left the mollies and chromis for tank cycling”.

PSS: If by our questions, we irritate, consider that a detailed chronological log on your part would eliminate some of that. I read your thread more than once. Some things are not very clear, so, we ask questions. I read a lot of threads that can get confusing when I post to someone’s thread.

Moving along. You have been asked some very specific questions. It would help us if you answered them as well as you can.

Only two things kill fish that fast. Lack of oxygen or toxic chemicals such as ammonia or hydrogen peroxide. Your hobby test kit showed ammonia which is easily removed by denitrification bacteria. You were asked several times about how you did your cycle. Do you think that you have denitrification bacteria established. This is easily determined by continuing to test for ammonia & nitrite. The bacteria that perform denitrification are much slower to reach mature populations but you should see a continued gradual decrease as bacteria populations increase. During this process, it is necessary to continue feeding as a source of ammonia & nitrite. Denitrification bacteria operate in the facultative zone which is a low oxygen enviroment in which bacteria that normally consume oxygen from the water column must now work harder for oxygen by consuming oxygen molecule in nitrate molecule reducing nitrate to a free gas which leaves the aquarium as nutrient export.

Is your nitrifying bacteria population healthy & mature to process nutrients?

My timeline to edit this post had ended so I want to say that I meant to emphasize hydrogen sulfide, not h2o2.

With a 6” deep sand bed for 25 years, I have often observed black hydrogen sulfide line migrating back & forth with no ill effect. With a 10 year mud/macro filter, I often disturbed mud bed when harvesting macro for nutrient export. I also distinctly & briefly smelled hydrogen sulfide with no ill effects to display.

Having been trained in hydrogen sulfide survival because of deep water drilling environment that I worked for 30 years, I remember this statement from the instructor, “If you continue to smell rooton egg odor, that is a good thing, because at 10o parts per billion hydrogen sulfide deadens the ability to smell. It can be smelled at levels < 1 ppb. Hydrogen sulfide does not kill humans until concentration is
> 100 parts per million. This was OSHA data from 30 years ago.

 

[JumboShrimp]

Jumping in with a ‘newbie’ question, but I assumed water that is too warm would make a fish breathe hard, and be lethargic; but if I read correctly in this thread, the same would be true as well if the water is too cold? (Guessing now: Would it be that when the water is too warm it is too hard for the fish to pull the oxygen ‘from’ the water, but when it is too cold it is too hard for the oxygen to get ‘into’ the water? ) Thanks in advance...

 

[Bryce73]

This might make it easier - based on what I read through your posts - the way things went was (correct any mistakes):):

1. You got a tank which had been up for 5 years from a friend. You took the rock fish etc out of the tank and set it up in your house very quickly (i.e. very little stress) That was in February. All was well.
2. You bought a Kole tang this summer that had CI which you hadn't quarantined
3. You removed the fish and some rock (you didn't like) from the DT and put in QT and treated with Copper (did you check levels?). Rock can absorb copper.
4. When you moved the fish - you noticed bubbles from the sand (was there a sulphur smell?)
5. You left the fish in QT for 80 days - with the display tank fallow. The fish all did fine in QT.
6. When you re-added the fish into the display tank 4 of them died. You took 2 tangs out but you think you disturbed the sand bed. But the mollies and chromis you left in (and the anemones) are all doing fine. Did you notice bubbles from the sand that time?
7. You added a diamond goby (at some point after the other fish were doing well) and within a short time it was dead - but all of the other fish are fine.
8. You've posted testing of ammonia etc - which you read as 0 - but really they are higher. You checked your pH when you got home from work (which is likely when the pH is likely to be the HIGHEST - and it was around 7.8 (it is probably lower at night)

The question you asked is 'why did the goby die?' Everyone else (myself included) have been trying to help out but no one has answered the main question (which I just saw in your OP).

IMHO - none of the issues brought up so far would 'kill' the diamond goby except disease of some kind (or some hidden poison that the chromis and mollies and anemones have 'gotten used to'. I think the other fish that died have nothing to do with the goby - first of all you have fish in the tank (that are doing well). Second you have anemones in the tank that are all doing well. Thirdly - you have testing that shows parameters that aren't 'great' but they aren't bad now either.

Could the goby have had a disease and died of something unrelated to all of the other 'stuff' you reported? I guess that what I come up with. I would check an ICP test.

Yes!!! The correct order! Somethings are different but for the most part you are correct.
I left all the rock in quarantine tank. Never put it back.
As I look back, it did have the sulfur smell when I first removed the fish.
Second time around there were a few bubbles under the rock work, but not as bad as the first.
With everyone’s help I learned ammonia spikes at night. I checked those in the early morning after working third shift.

 

[MnFish1]

Yes!!! The correct order! Somethings are different but for the most part you are correct.
I left all the rock in quarantine tank. Never put it back.
As I look back, it did have the sulfur smell when I first removed the fish.
Second time around there were a few bubbles under the rock work, but not as bad as the first.
With everyone’s help I learned ammonia spikes at night. I checked those in the early morning after working third shift.

So - It doesnt make sense that either ammonia or sand stirring killed the goby.... (or low oxygen, etc). Or?

 

[Subsea]

Jumping in with a ‘newbie’ question, but I assumed water that is too warm would make a fish breathe hard, and be lethargic; but if I read correctly in this thread, the same would be true as well if the water is too cold? (Guessing now: Would it be that when the water is too warm it is too hard for the fish to pull the oxygen ‘from’ the water, but when it is too cold it is too hard for the oxygen to get ‘into’ the water? ) Thanks in advance...

Warmer water holds less oxygen than colder water, however oxygen content in water varies for other reasons like atmospheric pressure and the amount of consumers. Warmer water speeds up fish metabolism, thereby consuming more oxygen from the already reduced oxygen water, because of increased water temperature.

Cold water will absorb more oxygen than warm water. Cold water slows down metabolism so that tank oxygen content stays higher. This enviroment would be much healthier than on the warm side of things.



http://omp.gso.uri.edu/ompweb/doee/science/physical/choxy1.htm

“The amount of dissolved oxygen that the water can hold depends on the temperature and salinity of the water. Cold water can hold more dissolved oxygen than warm water and fresh water can hold more dissolved oxygen than salt water. So the warmer and saltier the water, the less dissolved oxygen there can be.”

 

[Bryce73]

Thanks everyone for your help! I did a large water change. Moved my power heads angle closer to the surface. Everything looks good, fishes and nems. I’ll start this weekend of adding my fishes in Qt slowly. Also excited for Christmas to upgrade my introduction hobby chemistry test kit. No more guess work.