Mandarin feeding plan - is he looking fed enough?

[saltyfish24]

I brought this small Mandarin that has been cultured and raised on TDO pellets. It did a great job of eating TDO pellets while in QT. He would pick it off the sand as well as pick it off the water surface. Great job at eating. While in QT and later in isolation box, I tried to fatten it up with TDO pellets because it was so easy.

Now that he is in my main tank, he has to compete with a yellow coris wrasse, two clown fish, and tail spot blenny that are all much faster eaters of the TDO pellets. I have to stratgic about feeding the Mandarin using a long pipet, and even then there are days where I don't think he got more than one of two TDO pellets before the other fish steal it.

I'm attaching photos of the Mandarin from May 2nd and May 11th this month when he has been in my main tank (released from isolation box). Does he look too skinny? I'm worried he's not eating enough.

My tank is a 30 gallon Biocube AIO. I know, kinda small. I dose 1 liter of phyto (mix of 50% Tetraselmis and 50% Rhodomonus) that I culture every week. I use the back filter area of the biocube as a refugium with chaeto and rubble, and I also have some rock and 3D printed pod hotels in the main tank for copepod habitat. I added Tisbe pods in March, but also had a 3-pod mix late last year. Despite adding so much phyto, I don't spot copepods in the main part of the tank. I think maybe the yellow coris wrasse picks on the ones that are out in the open. I see them in the chaeto though. The Mandarin is the smallest fish in the tank, only about 1". But he doesn't get picked on much and seems to adapt well. He's been in the main tank for almost 2 weeks and hovers all over looking for food.

My intention is for the Mandarin to get enough nutrition from the combination of strategic feeding of TDO pellets and the copepods growing in the tank. Hopfully my phyto dosing is helping to boost the pod population. But I'm a bit concern that I don't actually spot any pods crawling around in the main tank and maybe the pod portion of his diet isn't cutting it. During QT and isolation, I was feeding the Mandarin about 30 x-small TDO pellets over the course of one day, so I figure I'm trying to make up for at least 20 TDO pellets worth of nutrition with copepods.

What do you think? Is it a good plan, or am I missing something?

 

[Tahoe61]

The other fish will accept other foods right?
Can you feed a couple different food types to satisfy them temporarily giving the mandarin a chance.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/mandarin-feeding-tools.1153104/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/mandarin-feeders.694201/

The mandarin looks good, but you might consider having to re-home another fish.

 

[afboundguy]

Mandarin looks pretty good as well and my male looks similar body shape and breeds with the female I have every 1-2 nights.

You can make a @Paul B mandarin feeder or check out the mandarin feeder that @Printed Reef has and hatch BBS daily. I used to do that all the time when I had a mandarin in my 25 cube and it was nice and plump. I know BBS isn't the most nutritional but within first 24 hours they are loaded with fat so high in calories.

 

[saltyfish24]

Mandarin looks pretty good as well and my male looks similar body shape and breeds with the female I have every 1-2 nights.

You can make a @Paul B mandarin feeder or check out the mandarin feeder that @Printed Reef has and hatch BBS daily. I used to do that all the time when I had a mandarin in my 25 cube and it was nice and plump. I know BBS isn't the most nutritional but within first 24 hours they are loaded with fat so high in calories.

I forgot to mention that I do have a tube and dish in a slow flow corner of the tank, and I had trained the mandarin while is QT and isolation to look for pellets inside the dish. The other fish are just too fast and get to the dish when I sink pellets. Good idea @Tahoe61, it didn't occur to me to try splashing frozen calamus into the tank while I feed the Mandarin the TDO pellets.

​

Maybe broadcast feeding of calamus would work well in general for feeding the Mandarin. I've seen it eat frozen calamus before. I've just been hyper-focused on TDO pellets for the dense nutrition.

I'm really glad the mandarin I got is willing to take all kinds of food. I had mixed feeling about paying for Biota cultured mandarin, but it does make feeding in a small tank more manageable, despite my current anxiety over nutrition. It'd be much harder with a wild caught mandarin I think.

 

[sgdnycct]

I’ve got a male and female mandarin from Biota and both are doing fantastic.

Yours is looking ok but I couldn’t get a good look at its belly. That’s where malnutrition and starvation will show first.

It’s great it’s taking pellets but long term I don’t know if it’s feasible to keep it based on that. They barely have a stomachs and need to be eating constantly. And I mean constantly. Your other fish will always beat the mandarin to the food.

What you can do is set up a refugium and seed with pods. That’s their diet in the wild. You can supplement with brine shrimp in a screened feeder.

I’ve seen people who have kept them successfully and say it’s solely based on feeding but I suspect they have good pod populations. You may already since you are dosing phyto. I like to add new pods from different breeders every few months to keep the gene pool varied and healthy.

Good luck! They are great fish!

 

[afboundguy]

I forgot to mention that I do have a tube and dish in a slow flow corner of the tank, and I had trained the mandarin while is QT and isolation to look for pellets inside the dish. The other fish are just too fast and get to the dish when I sink pellets. Good idea @Tahoe61, it didn't occur to me to try splashing frozen calamus into the tank while I feed the Mandarin the TDO pellets.

​

Maybe broadcast feeding of calamus would work well in general for feeding the Mandarin. I've seen it eat frozen calamus before. I've just been hyper-focused on TDO pellets for the dense nutrition.

I'm really glad the mandarin I got is willing to take all kinds of food. I had mixed feeling about paying for Biota cultured mandarin, but it does make feeding in a small tank more manageable, despite my current anxiety over nutrition. It'd be much harder with a wild caught mandarin I think.

The good thing about the BBS/mandarin feeder is that they can pick and graze throughout the day as the BBS will try and swim out as they're attracted to light allowing them to graze/eat more naturally.

 

[W31Olds]

I have a similar problem with my WC Female. No competition from wrasses but my large fish eat everything in sight and muscle her out of the way. You could try a second dish at the other side of your Tank and feed them simultaneously. I don't have a lot of Pods either and only feed 2x a day and she seems fine. I think they don't need as much food as people think, especially Pellets which are high protein. Pods are very tiny, so they have to eat hundreds whereas a half dozen pellets 2x a day is probably the equivalent of hundreds of Pods.

 

[saltyfish24]

I have a similar problem with my WC Female. No competition from wrasses but my large fish eat everything in sight and muscle her out of the way. You could try a second dish at the other side of your Tank and feed them simultaneously. I don't have a lot of Pods either and only feed 2x a day and she seems fine. I think they don't need as much food as people think, especially Pellets which are high protein. Pods are very tiny, so they have to eat hundreds whereas a half dozen pellets 2x a day is probably the equivalent of hundreds of Pods.

I put it back in a large isolation basket for now just to fatten it up some more and try again later. I'm going to try a different feeding tube setup and desensitize my other fish to my movements when filling the tube.

I've also read and heard other people say mandarins need constant feeding throughout the day and that they have small stomachs. FWIW, even my tiny mandarin will take 7-10 xsmall TDO pellets at once in the isolation box. Which is about how much I expect my wrasse and clown fish to eat per feeding. So I'm not sure Mandarins are as small-stomached as they're made out to be. At least the one I have will chow down on pellets if given the opportunity.

 

[afboundguy]

I think they don't need as much food as people think, especially Pellets which are high protein. Pods are very tiny, so they have to eat hundreds whereas a half dozen pellets 2x a day is probably the equivalent of hundreds of Pods.

Not true per se because ..

I've also read and heard other people say mandarins need constant feeding throughout the day and that they have small stomachs.

...of this. Mandarins sort of don't have a stomach like we think of but instead only really have intestines. This isn't totally scientific but the easiest way I can explain it. Without a true "stomach" and just "intestines" they have to eat all the time to be healthy. They can't survive on 1-2 feedings a day even if they eat frozen and pellet as they'll slowly starve to death as they need to eat all the time.

 

[saltyfish24]

Not true per se because ..

...of this. Mandarins sort of don't have a stomach like we think of but instead only really have intestines. This isn't totally scientific but the easiest way I can explain it. Without a true "stomach" and just "intestines" they have to eat all the time to be healthy. They can't survive on 1-2 feedings a day even if they eat frozen and pellet as they'll slowly starve to death as they need to eat all the time.

I've heard that same things mentioned about Mandarins needing constant small feedings. But I've also heard other people with captive bred Mandarins have pretty good success with just a couple of feedings per day. I myself observed my Mandarin doing pretty well in isolation with just 2 or 3 feedings of TDO pellets when there's very little access to pods to account for them doing well. So whatever the physiology of their stomachs, I tend to believe Mandarins can live on a couple of feedings per day. It's not their natural feeding style, but I don't think they'd starve. There's just seems too many accounts of pellet eating Mandarins to think mine is an exception.

 

[sgdnycct]

Not true per se because ..

...of this. Mandarins sort of don't have a stomach like we think of but instead only really have intestines. This isn't totally scientific but the easiest way I can explain it. Without a true "stomach" and just "intestines" they have to eat all the time to be healthy. They can't survive on 1-2 feedings a day even if they eat frozen and pellet as they'll slowly starve to death as they need to eat all the time.

I've heard that same things mentioned about Mandarins needing constant small feedings. But I've also heard other people with captive bred Mandarins have pretty good success with just a couple of feedings per day. I myself observed my Mandarin doing pretty well in isolation with just 2 or 3 feedings of TDO pellets when there's very little access to pods to account for them doing well. So whatever the physiology of their stomachs, I tend to believe Mandarins can live on a couple of feedings per day. It's not their natural feeding style, but I don't think they'd starve. There's just seems too many accounts of pellet eating Mandarins to think mine is an exception.

I think the reason these folks succeed is because they have enough food growing in their system to keep the mandarin alive. I think many of us underestimate how much food could live and reproduce in our systems. In addition, they can live a very long time slowly starving to death so people may think they’ve been successful and attribute the loss to something other than food.

This is a summary from AI and confirmed accurate based on my experience and additional research:

“The Mandarin Dragonet (Synchiropus splendidus) possesses a highly specialized stomachless digestive system and an intense metabolic demand that requires near-continuous grazing on live prey to prevent starvation. They are deliberate, slow hunters that cannot compete with fast-swimming tankmates for standard fish food.”

It’s like seahorses. They also need frequent feedings.

I should add that I don’t think keeping Mandarins is all that hard as long as the aquarium has plenty of surface area where pods and other microfauna can establish and maintain healthy populations. A refugium of course could help. When I set up my tank I glued pod hotels inside rock + a refugium. I never have to worry about feeding my two mandarins and juvie multibar.

 

[saltyfish24]

I think the reason these folks succeed is because they have enough food growing in their system to keep the mandarin alive. I think many of us underestimate how much food could live and reproduce in our systems. In addition, they can live a very long time slowly starving to death so people may think they’ve been successful and attribute the loss to something other than food.

I think chatgpt mostly just repeats the often repeated advice that Mandarins need large copepod populations to survive and that they need to eat a little bit all day long. I wouldn't argue that's not the BEST way to keep a Mandarin, but it's probably also not the only way for good results. The hobby hasn't caught up with folks keeping two Mandarins in a 20 gallon tank on pellets, for example. This guy isn't even feeding phyto to increase pod population, and his live food feeding is mostly to avoid high phosphates, he can keep his pair of Mandarins on pellets alone.

At this point, my problem is mostly a matter of food competition, not feed frequency, feed amount, or pods vs. pellets.

 

[Paul B]

Unfortunately, if you have a tank where you have to feed a mandarin, it isn't going to work long term. As was said, they need constant food and not pellets. They live on pods and anything small enough to look like a pod.

I also believe your tank is a little small and new for a mandarin. Sorry, but it is what it is.
And IMO your mandarin is a little skinny.

 

[Privateye]

A photo of the belly would be needed to confirm, if you can post one.

I've seen bigger mandarins do fine for years in smaller tanks than yours. It's totally possible, just not typical. Most of the wild mandarins I've seen coming from wholesalers are skinny and will starve before they wean onto frozen food. For smaller tanks, weaning is necessary to supplement their foraging.

I don't shop for mandarins by color, I do it by the size of the belly. That increased my success rate a lot. I haven't tried one of the captive-bred ones that eat pellets though. They likely fare better.

 

[Sophie"s mom]

I’ve got a male and female mandarin from Biota and both are doing fantastic.

Yours is looking ok but I couldn’t get a good look at its belly. That’s where malnutrition and starvation will show first.

It’s great it’s taking pellets but long term I don’t know if it’s feasible to keep it based on that. They barely have a stomachs and need to be eating constantly. And I mean constantly. Your other fish will always beat the mandarin to the food.

What you can do is set up a refugium and seed with pods. That’s their diet in the wild. You can supplement with brine shrimp in a screened feeder.

I’ve seen people who have kept them successfully and say it’s solely based on feeding but I suspect they have good pod populations. You may already since you are dosing phyto. I like to add new pods from different breeders every few months to keep the gene pool varied and healthy.

Good luck! They are great fish!

How big were yours when you first got them? I am asking because I really want one, but am seriously nervous about the size. I am afraid something else in my tank will eat it if too small. The biggest fish in my tank are both veggie fish. I have a Naso tang and a foxface.

 

[sgdnycct]

I’ve got a male and female mandarin from Biota and both are doing fantastic.

Yours is looking ok but I couldn’t get a good look at its belly. That’s where malnutrition and starvation will show first.

It’s great it’s taking pellets but long term I don’t know if it’s feasible to keep it based on that. They barely have a stomachs and need to be eating constantly. And I mean constantly. Your other fish will always beat the mandarin to the food.

What you can do is set up a refugium and seed with pods. That’s their diet in the wild. You can supplement with brine shrimp in a screened feeder.

I’ve seen people who have kept them successfully and say it’s solely based on feeding but I suspect they have good pod populations. You may already since you are dosing phyto. I like to add new pods from different breeders every few months to keep the gene pool varied and healthy.

Good luck! They are great fish!

How big were yours when you first got them? I am asking because I really want one, but am seriously nervous about the size. I am afraid something else in my tank will eat it if too small. The biggest fish in my tank are both veggie fish. I have a Naso tang and a foxface.

I bought the larger option. The male was probably just under 1” and the female was tiny. The size of my thumbnail.

The trick is to have them in the aquarium water for a few days so they absorb the biome and won’t be considered food or new by the existing fish. This also helps with aggression ( mandarins generally won’t be bothered in that sense).

I had them in observation doing water changes with DT water. You can also use an acclimation box. Then follow best practices (ie nighttime release, heavy feeding prior, release onto a surface, etc).

They grow very fast if they are healthy and have access to enough food.

Good luck! I highly recommend them!

 

[Sophie"s mom]

I bought the larger option. The male was probably just under 1” and the female was tiny. The size of my thumbnail.

The trick is to have them in the aquarium water for a few days so they absorb the biome and won’t be considered food or new by the existing fish. This also helps with aggression ( mandarins generally won’t be bothered in that sense).

I had them in observation doing water changes with DT water. You can also use an acclimation box. Then follow best practices (ie nighttime release, heavy feeding prior, release onto a surface, etc).

They grow very fast if they are healthy and have access to enough food.

Good luck! I highly recommend them!

Thank you so much for the help! My tank is almost 3 years old and I add pods monthly. SO I know they will have plenty to eat. Also have about 75 pounds of live rock, so plenty of places to hide as well.

 

[sgdnycct]

Unfortunately, if you have a tank where you have to feed a mandarin, it isn't going to work long term. As was said, they need constant food and not pellets. They live on pods and anything small enough to look like a pod.

I also believe your tank is a little small and new for a mandarin. Sorry, but it is what it is.
And IMO your mandarin is a little skinny.

OP is no longer interested in those facts. They are convinced Mandarins don’t have that kind of dietary need. I think all we can do now is help OP improve their chances. So many of these beautiful fish are killed b/c people want them so bad they’ll convince themselves they’ll be the exception. I know because I did it. Once. And I still think about how terrible that was.

 

[Sophie"s mom]

OP is no longer interested in those facts. They are convinced Mandarins don’t have that kind of dietary need. I think all we can do now is help OP improve their chances. So many of these beautiful fish are killed b/c people want them so bad they’ll convince themselves they’ll be the exception. I know because I did it. Once. And I still think about how terrible that was.

agreed! There is more than enough material out there about how to care for these beautiful fish. So many want to get them when they are nowhere near ready. As I mentioned, my tank is old enough, and I purchase pods monthly! But I am still nervous about it. They really are amazing little fish to watch.

 

[Paul B]

They are amazing fish and in the proper tank will live about 10 years and spawn constantly without any help from us. I have never bought a POD but I wish the OP the best of luck.

I do stand by what I said, though.