Manganese supplement for Goniopora?

[Big E]

I've been following this and other sources concerning dosing Mn and I'm not convinced it does anything for the gonis. The info is sketchy at best.

Part of my skepticism is that ICP measurments are not that reliable with this element and I have 6 different goni colonies that grow like weeds and I just do weekly water changes with IO salt.

I think it's more important to get aquacultured gonis and a lot of those types vendors are pushing aren't being aquacultured for multuple years.

 

[Miami Reef]

Here's the calculation for the second one that Miami recommended (from another thread):


Let's suppose your target is 165 ng/L, which is a typical ocean value (it varies a lot). Triton uses a set point 10x higher.

100 gallons is 379 liters.

So a NSW value of 165 ng/L x 379 L = 62,535 ng (0.063 mg) in your tank.

From the stock recipe above:

Manganese(II) chloride tetrahydrate is 28% manganese by weight.
Here's a recipe:

Dissolve 1 gram (which contains 280 mg actual manganese) in 2.8 L fresh water. Manganese = 280 mg/2.8 L = 100 mg/l.

Thus you want 0.063 mg/100 mg/L = 0.00063 L or 0.6 mL added to the 100 gallon tank to match typical NSW levels.

I made this solution in January. I heard manganese isn‘t very stable.

I store my solution is a used pickle jar (cleaned prior). I don’t see any precipitation.

Can you give some information if Manganese(II) chloride tetrahydrate is stable if kept closed in RO/DI. Will it be stable if added to a reef tank?

 

[Reefer911]

Interesting topic. What level should we shoot for in our tank?

One source I read says NSW Mn concentration is 2mcg/l. In this thread, sounds like it needs to be significantly higher than that.

The salt I use (Nyos) has Mn concentration of 3mcg/l

I also dose All for Reef, and I’m hoping that will help maintain Mn

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I made this solution in January. I heard manganese isn‘t very stable.

I store my solution is a used pickle jar (cleaned prior). I don’t see any precipitation.

Can you give some information if Manganese(II) chloride tetrahydrate is stable if kept closed in RO/DI. Will it be stable if added to a reef tank?

If protected from air, it is stable. Oxygen will convert it to a higher oxidation state which is less soluble.

Interestingly, when looking into some papers on this topic, I ran across a reference of another situation where hydrogen peroxide acts as a reducing agent (like with copper) rather than as an oxidant that most people expect. it once again should remind us that folks using hydrogen peroxide for various purposes are impacting the speciation and bioavailability of trace elements in their systems (which few users recognize).

Biotic and Abiotic Mechanisms of Manganese (II) Oxidation in Lake Erie

Manganese (Mn), an element sensitive to redox conditions in aquatic environments, plays a role in numerous biogeochemical cycles. Although the speciation of Mn in lakes largely tracks the availability of dissolved oxygen, direct oxidation of Mn by molecular oxygen occurs slowly and, instead, the...

www.frontiersin.org

"hydrogen peroxide acted as a net reductant for manganese oxides and completely masked oxidation of Mn by the superoxide free radical"

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Interesting topic. What level should we shoot for in our tank?

One source I read says NSW Mn concentration is 2mcg/l. In this thread, sounds like it needs to be significantly higher than that.

The salt I use (Nyos) has Mn concentration of 3mcg/l

I also dose All for Reef, and I’m hoping that will help maintain Mn

Manganese is very rapidly depleted. A little macroalgae growth can strip all the manganese from the water.

I do not know what levels or chemical forms are most useful for the various organisms we keep, but folks not dosing it often see none by ICP.

 

[Reefer911]

If protected from air, it is stable. Oxygen will convert it to a higher oxidation state which is less soluble.

Interestingly, when looking into some papers on this topic, I ran across a reference of another situation where hydrogen peroxide acts as a reducing agent (like with copper) rather than as an oxidant that most people expect. it once again should remind us that folks using hydrogen peroxide for various purposes are impacting the speciation and bioavailability of trace elements in their systems (which few users recognize).

Biotic and Abiotic Mechanisms of Manganese (II) Oxidation in Lake Erie

Manganese (Mn), an element sensitive to redox conditions in aquatic environments, plays a role in numerous biogeochemical cycles. Although the speciation of Mn in lakes largely tracks the availability of dissolved oxygen, direct oxidation of Mn by molecular oxygen occurs slowly and, instead, the...

www.frontiersin.org

"hydrogen peroxide acted as a net reductant for manganese oxides and completely masked oxidation of Mn by the superoxide free radical"

Looks like aquarium lighting largely has an affect on the fate of Mn as well.

Given this newly learned information for me, I can appreciate the efforts by Nyos to increase Mn concentration in their salt mix. How much of a difference that makes remains to be seen however.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Looks like aquarium lighting largely has an affect on the fate of Mn as well.

Given this newly learned information for me, I can appreciate the efforts by Nyos to increase Mn concentration in their salt mix. How much of a difference that makes remains to be seen however.

Light may promote the oxidation, but I'm not convinced any reasonable amount in a salt mix can offset the rapid depletion from consumption, unless one is doing large and frequent water changes.

 

[Miami Reef]

If protected from air, it is stable. Oxygen will convert it to a higher oxidation state which is less soluble.

Interestingly, when looking into some papers on this topic, I ran across a reference of another situation where hydrogen peroxide acts as a reducing agent (like with copper) rather than as an oxidant that most people expect. it once again should remind us that folks using hydrogen peroxide for various purposes are impacting the speciation and bioavailability of trace elements in their systems (which few users recognize).

Biotic and Abiotic Mechanisms of Manganese (II) Oxidation in Lake Erie

Manganese (Mn), an element sensitive to redox conditions in aquatic environments, plays a role in numerous biogeochemical cycles. Although the speciation of Mn in lakes largely tracks the availability of dissolved oxygen, direct oxidation of Mn by molecular oxygen occurs slowly and, instead, the...

www.frontiersin.org

"hydrogen peroxide acted as a net reductant for manganese oxides and completely masked oxidation of Mn by the superoxide free radical"

How about ozone? Does it affect manganese? Does oxygen from ozone and a regular aquarium also convert it to a higher oxidation state?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How about ozone? Does it affect manganese? Does oxygen from ozone and a regular aquarium also convert it to a higher oxidation state?

Ozone will certainly oxidize a number of trace elements to a higher oxidation state, including iron and manganese.

Does that make it less desirable to use? Maybe. Maybe not. Trace elements in a reef tank are already pretty dilute and possibly bound to organics to help keep them soluble.

 

[Leo.L]

It isn't:

How would I dose these manganese products?

 

[Miami Reef]

How would I dose these manganese products?

For the second one:

Here's the calculation for the second one that Miami recommended (from another thread):


Let's suppose your target is 165 ng/L, which is a typical ocean value (it varies a lot). Triton uses a set point 10x higher.

100 gallons is 379 liters.

So a NSW value of 165 ng/L x 379 L = 62,535 ng (0.063 mg) in your tank.

From the stock recipe above:

Manganese(II) chloride tetrahydrate is 28% manganese by weight.
Here's a recipe:

Dissolve 1 gram (which contains 280 mg actual manganese) in 2.8 L fresh water. Manganese = 280 mg/2.8 L = 100 mg/l.

Thus you want 0.063 mg/100 mg/L = 0.00063 L or 0.6 mL added to the 100 gallon tank to match typical NSW levels.

IF you used manganese gluconate (about 12.4% manganese by weight) you would need to use about twice as much.

 

[Miami Reef]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Is there a difference in stability and bioavailability of manganese in Manganese Sulfate monohydrate vs manganese chloride (II) tetrahydrate?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Is there a difference in stability and bioavailability of manganese in Manganese Sulfate monohydrate vs manganese chloride (II) tetrahydrate?

No. Both of those will release free Mn++ that may then go on to bind to organics or be oxidized, etc.

 

[Miami Reef]

Thank you.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You’re welcome.

Happy Reefing!

 

[Terrapod]

Here's the calculation for the second one that Miami recommended (from another thread):


Let's suppose your target is 165 ng/L, which is a typical ocean value (it varies a lot). Triton uses a set point 10x higher.

100 gallons is 379 liters.

So a NSW value of 165 ng/L x 379 L = 62,535 ng (0.063 mg) in your tank.

From the stock recipe above:

Manganese(II) chloride tetrahydrate is 28% manganese by weight.
Here's a recipe:

Dissolve 1 gram (which contains 280 mg actual manganese) in 2.8 L fresh water. Manganese = 280 mg/2.8 L = 100 mg/l.

Thus you want 0.063 mg/100 mg/L = 0.00063 L or 0.6 mL added to the 100 gallon tank to match typical NSW levels.

IF you used manganese gluconate (about 12.4% manganese by weight) you would need to use about twice as much.

Hi Randy

Sorry I am peppering you with questions.

According to my icp, I need to add 2ug/L of manganese, to bring to recommend levels.

If use the above to convert ug/l to Ng/l I should be adding 2000ng/l ? That's seems crazy high compared to NSW? Wouldnt I have to also add that incredibly slowly too, so not to shock the system?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi Randy

Sorry I am peppering you with questions.

According to my icp, I need to add 2ug/L of manganese, to bring to recommend levels.

If use the above to convert ug/l to Ng/l I should be adding 2000ng/l ? That's seems crazy high compared to NSW? Wouldnt I have to also add that incredibly slowly too, so not to shock the system?

Well, that target is much higher than NSW levels that I'd target (~170 ng/mL), so that's part of the issue.

Who says to target 2,000 ng/L?

It may be fine, but I would not start there.

 

[Terrapod]

Well, that target is much higher than NSW levels that I'd target (~170 ng/mL), so that's part of the issue.

Who says to target 2,000 ng/L?

It may be fine, but I would not start there.

The instructions I received from RZ here in the UK is to add 1.5ug/l to get over 2ug/l, which is a 1500ng/l increase!

Can I dose 1.5ug/l in one hit or should I be breaking it down into incremental values over weeks? (which will take me up to my new ICP!)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The instructions I received from RZ here in the UK is to add 1.5ug/l to get over 2ug/l, which is a 1500ng/l increase!

Can I dose 1.5ug/l in one hit or should I be breaking it down into incremental values over weeks? (which will take me up to my new ICP!)

Again, 2 ug/L seems high to me. Manganese is also rapidly depleted.

If you try to split that dosing over many days you may never reach the target.

If you dose 1.5 ug/L all at once, then in a week it may be back to undetectable.

If I were to dose manganese, which is a reasonable plan, I'd personally dose about 100 ng/L per day and then get an ICP test after a couple of weeks of dosing.

 

[Terrapod]

Again, 2 ug/L seems high to me. Manganese is also rapidly depleted.

If you try to split that dosing over many days you may never reach the target.

If you dose 1.5 ug/L all at once, then in a week it may be back to undetectable.

If I were to dose manganese, which is a reasonable plan, I'd personally dose about 100 ng/mL per day and then get an ICP test after a couple of weeks of dosing.

Thanks randy, perfect help!