Marine Velvet

ss88 · Dec 1, 2023

Is copper or Chloroquine phosphate the preferred method for treatment? If Chloroquine phosphate by what method of action is it superior?

Does treatment with FW dips provide relief from the parasite immediately? Some recommend the use of Ruby Reef Rally or hydrogen peroxide.

I have some new specimens in my secondary qt that presented with what appeared to be marine ick at first. Started full copper treatment yesterday. Overnight, the number of visible trophonts multiplied by 100x.

Respiration rate seems fairly normal, all specimens took food normally yesterday.

vetteguy53081 · Dec 1, 2023

ss88 said:
Is copper or Chloroquine phosphate the preferred method for treatment? If Chloroquine phosphate by what method of action is it superior?

Does treatment with FW dips provide relief from the parasite immediately? Some recommend the use of Ruby Reef Rally or hydrogen peroxide.

I have some new specimens in my secondary qt that presented with what appeared to be marine ick at first. Started full copper treatment yesterday. Overnight, the number of visible trophonts multiplied by 100x.

Respiration rate seems fairly normal, all specimens took food normally yesterday.

Coppersafe is safest and effective
Please let’s us know how you concluded velvet
With velvet, fish will have increased respiration, scratching on objects, gasping at surface, swimming in path of water flow and loss of appetite

ss88 · Dec 1, 2023

Quantity size and shape of trophonts. Went from zero or a few to over a few hundred/thousand per fish overnight. Can do skin scrape and look under microscope but I’m fairly confident its velvet.

ss88 · Dec 1, 2023

Do you have experience using hydrogen peroxide, providing temporary relief?

ss88 · Dec 1, 2023

Jay Hemdal · Dec 1, 2023

ss88 said:
Quantity size and shape of trophonts. Went from zero or a few to over a few hundred/thousand per fish overnight. Can do skin scrape and look under microscope but I’m fairly confident its velvet.

If you can see actual trophonts, it is more likely ich, Cryptocaryon. When ich reaches exponential growth, the numbers can really shoot up. With velvet, you first see rapid breathing and not eating. Towards the end of an infection, you'll see congested skin...fish often die before that stage.

Either way - coppersafe at 2.5 ppm is the best treatment. It takes up to 3 days to work, so you need to treat ASAP.

Oh - just saw your picture - 100% that is Cryptocaryon.....

Jay

ss88 · Dec 1, 2023

@Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

Thank you for the feedback!

Approaching 36 hrs at full dosage >2ppm.

Yesterday the visible infection was likely 1/100th of today. That’s an impressive exponential growth.

Would I see any potential benefit to a hydrogen peroxide bath? Of just wait and watch for secondary infections?

Jay Hemdal · Dec 1, 2023

ss88 said:
@Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

Thank you for the feedback!

Approaching 36 hrs at full dosage >2ppm.

Yesterday the visible infection was likely 1/100th of today. That’s an impressive exponential growth.

Would I see any potential benefit to a hydrogen peroxide bath? Of just wait and watch for secondary infections?

Peroxide is tricky to use, the active amount in the water is based on the tank's inherent organic loading. People like to mess with it because you can buy it anywhere, but the reality is that without a test kit, you cannot really dose it accurately.

Hydrogen Peroxide Bench-testing

Bench testing of the effects of hydrogen peroxide in aquariums.

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

ss88 · Dec 1, 2023

I guess a simple way around that would be to use freshly mixed saltwater without dissolved organics, made from rodi water. From what I read 75-150ppm is effective against Amyloodinium in a 30 minute bath. Would this also be the case Cryptocaryon, I would assume so. @Jay Hemdal your thoughts?

The Application of Hydrogen Peroxide as a Treatment for the Ectoparasite Amyloodinium ocellatum (Brown 1931) on the Pacific Threadfin Polydactylus sexfilis

www.academia.edu

vetteguy53081 · Dec 1, 2023

ss88 said:
@Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

Thank you for the feedback!

Approaching 36 hrs at full dosage >2ppm.

Yesterday the visible infection was likely 1/100th of today. That’s an impressive exponential growth.

Would I see any potential benefit to a hydrogen peroxide bath? Of just wait and watch for secondary infections?

Peroxide is an oxidizer and not an actual treatment and is purely a gamble and attempted short cut

ss88 · Dec 1, 2023

vetteguy53081 said:
Peroxide is an oxidizer and not an actual treatment and is purely a gamble and attempted short cut

Yes true, but if can lessen damage to gills while copper starts to work. was thinking more along the lines of temporary relief.

vetteguy53081 · Dec 1, 2023

ss88 said:
Yes true, but if can lessen damage to gills while copper starts to work. was thinking more along the lines of temporary relief.

Being a fla, requires direct treatment

Jay Hemdal · Dec 1, 2023

ss88 said:
I guess a simple way around that would be to use freshly mixed saltwater without dissolved organics, made from rodi water. From what I read 75-150ppm is effective against Amyloodinium in a 30 minute bath. Would this also be the case Cryptocaryon, I would assume so. @Jay Hemdal your thoughts?

The Application of Hydrogen Peroxide as a Treatment for the Ectoparasite Amyloodinium ocellatum (Brown 1931) on the Pacific Threadfin Polydactylus sexfilis

The Application of Hydrogen Peroxide as a Treatment for the Ectoparasite Amyloodinium ocellatum (Brown 1931) on the Pacific Threadfin Polydactylus sexfilis

www.academia.edu

That's the paper everyone cites. You need to move the fish into subsequent sterile tanks after each dip for it to work. It worked for them with Amyloodinium, but the ich trophont is a much tougher bug.

Jay

ss88 · Dec 1, 2023

@Jay Hemdal,
I feared that was the case, more resilient! Thus I shall wait for copper to start working. Hopefully the disease does not progress further. Anything else that can be done to improve the odds here?

Very impressive that the disease progressed so quickly even after full copper was administered.

@Jay Hemdal,
I do have some calcium carbonate rock/sand in the system, however I do check copper levels daily. The sand was added for the few wrasses. I did not have access to suitable silica sand at the moment. Does this pose an issue beyond copper absorption? Seems as if the absorption rate is very minimal at most if any.

Thanks in advance for the information!

Jay Hemdal · Dec 2, 2023

ss88 said:
@Jay Hemdal,
I feared that was the case, more resilient! Thus I shall wait for copper to start working. Hopefully the disease does not progress further. Anything else that can be done to improve the odds here?

Very impressive that the disease progressed so quickly even after full copper was administered.

@Jay Hemdal,
I do have some calcium carbonate rock/sand in the system, however I do check copper levels daily. The sand was added for the few wrasses. I did not have access to suitable silica sand at the moment. Does this pose an issue beyond copper absorption? Seems as if the absorption rate is very minimal at most if any.

Thanks in advance for the information!

As long as you keep the copper level between 2.25 and 2.6, the sand won't matter (but using any of that in a reef tank later on would be a bad idea, it could leach copper back out).

That's the problem with exponential growth - the trophonts can hit huge numbers with each new cycle. You can try siphoning the bottom of the tank early every morning (like 5 am). That snags a portion of the tomonts before they release their theronts for the day. Copper only kills the free swimming theronts.

Jay

ss88 · Dec 11, 2023

Just an update, the specimen is looking much better.

Thanks for the help.

ss88 · Dec 30, 2023

See pictures.

Directly behind the pectoral fin there is a small section of raised scales, not red.

My main concern is secondary bacterial or uronema. Would it be advisable to preform a wet mount skin scrape or wait 24-36hrs to see if condition improves?

Noticed today during feeding, fish is housed alone, other pomacanthidae specimen is visible through plastic dividing grate. No issues with accepting food, voraciously eating nearly everything. The two pomacanthidae specimens really don't notice each other, thus its a small possibility of mechanical damage IMO.

I will note, there was a large amount of mucus cones on the fish after the Cryptocaryon infection. Nearing day 30 of treatment with copper at 2.2-2.5 ppm.