"Ich Management"

[GARRIGA]

That's what I've found - breaking down H2O2 in seawater with UV-C produces short-lived oxidants.

Back in the early 1980's, there was a device called "Photozone" that used 185nm UV to produce a small amount of ozone that then went into the aquarium. I always loved the smell it made (grin) but the reality was the product was just making unregulated ozone (no ORP controllers back then).

Jay

What I'm trying to figure out from either UV and ozone or UV and HP being if those short lived hydroxyl radical (with HP) sanitize effectively that they come in contact with and if similar with ozone. In addition, were I to dose the tank with HP then could I quickly dissipate all or most of that HP quickly. Based on the literature for the UV Ozone combo that appears to be the case and what I've found researching both UV and HP.

 

[GARRIGA]

Its total opposite with the experiments we have done - they last enough time to do much better work than H2O2 and UV-C separately. FYI - its not H2O2 that kill microorganism - it is the radicals that is formed when H2O2 breaks down that is that active killing agent in a process that´s named "oxidation". And if you want a delayed action - just add the H2O2 in the DT - you get a slow release of radicals and when it pass the UV-C - you get 100% catalyzation.

Sincerely Lasse

What you are saying is what I understand in general. However, my simplistic grasp being that decomposition of HP frees the extra oxygen which now seeks to obtain a hydrogen bond. The UV-C appears to me to accelerate that decomposition.

The most important part to me being the last you state on 100% catalyzation. Is this dependent on wattage or flow as would be the case when using just UV to resolve pathogens or bacteria? Can't find much on this although there was a recent video on types of bulb such as the low pressure you previously mentioned and the presenter mentioned something about a cubic foot of volume but didn't go into detail or it was beyond my comprehension.

Assuming wattage and flow rate independent then that would imply one could more effectively sanitize water using lower wattage UV-C lamps and maximize flow to get display processed more often. Final equation being how much does one need to dose of HP and at what potency (3% to 35%). Looking into using sodium percarbonate which produces 27.5% HP at 120g/L. Plus some unknown amount of soda ash. Therefore, I can create my own dosing regiment that can dose low amount every minute or larger amounts less often. Trying to find the science behind that yet testing HP seems difficult as the test strips I've obtain not the most accurate and mostly depending on them to verify if present or absent although I did acquire a hand held ORP to see if I can glean how that reacts from base line to when different amounts are added. Controller would be preferred.

Plan on doing testing first with no life to see how quickly UV-C dissipates HP then add some test subjects (mollies) and see how having organics interact with different dosages of HP both in the display and direct to filtration. Only one way to find out.

 

[Lasse]

Please - publish your findings here

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ErikVR]

Thanks for the insights.
After a third case of ich in my tank in a year, I seriously doubt it's possible for me to keep it out and here is why.

First infection I installed UV and went with hyposalinity. Most fish survived.

Second infection I did another round of hyposalinity and I lost only one fish. After the treatment I broke down the tank to move all fish into my quarantine tanks. Left the display fallow for 80+ days. After the fallow period I moved the fish back in without additional treatment because a lot were not looking too good after a long hyposalinity period and a quarantine period in small tanks with only PVC pipes for shelter. I did not want to stress them even more with medications. I realize that this is probably the reason it came back a third time.

When the third 'infection' hit I did not treat it because at this stage I had corals present in the tank so hyposalinity was not an option anymore. In the end, it was contained to only one tang (that survived). Even without treatment. Just some extra food soaked in AB+ as recommended by some.

My point is that while I do believe full eradication technically is the best solution, I doubt it's manageable for most of us. I don't have time to tear down my large tank if it hits. All those rocks with corals growing on them. It's just not practically possible. Management seems to be the most used strategy and I see many people with great success when the tank matures.

Of course my quarantine protocols have not changed.
I will still (medicated) quarantine fish and corals as recommended by @Jay Hemdal.

I'm in no way an expert with only a year experience! So don't take this as a source of absolute truth!
I just wanted to add to this topic with my opinion that I don't think eradication is practically possible for a lot of us. And to me, it does not feel like a 'shortcut' (as mentioned by a lot of people) to live with the idea that ich could still be present in your tank when the fish are healthy and seem almost unaffected by an outbreak.

 

[Paul B]

Erik, your tank is in a good position now because your fish were infected and most of them lived through it. They are now most likely immune like mine are. All you need to do to keep that immunity is to feed the fish with real food. Foods with living bacteria like clams that have not been frozen for years. You can buy them alive and freeze them yourself or live white or black worms.

Those foods have living bacteria and will keep your fish immune.
Of course I don't know what types of foods you can get where you live but thats the secret. You only need to do this once or twice a week and if all else is good like your aquascape, your fish will never get a disease. Mine never do and at 50 years, I consider that a scientific experiment that was a success.

For the rest of the week you can feed any commercial food but no dry foods, pellets or freeze dried.
Good Luck

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Erik, your tank is in a good position now because your fish were infected and most of them lived through it. They are now most likely immune like mine are. All you need to do to keep that immunity is to feed the fish with real food. Foods with living bacteria like clams that have not been frozen for years. You can buy them alive and freeze them yourself or live white or black worms.

Those foods have living bacteria and will keep your fish immune.
Of course I don't know what types of foods you can get where you live but thats the secret. You only need to do this once or twice a week and if all else is good like your aquascape, your fish will never get a disease. Mine never do and at 50 years, I consider that a scientific experiment that was a success.

For the rest of the week you can feed any commercial food but no dry foods, pellets or freeze dried.
Good Luck

Strong immunity is conferred only to fish that survive an active infection that has run its course and not been stopped short by treatment. Many fish simply die if not treated during that process.

It has been shown that immunity to Cryptocaryon is short, Noga says up to six months. Burgess says the same, and adds that all species are not protected (but does not elaborate). Do not rely on immunity to protect your fish.

What is your source for this?
"Those foods have living bacteria and will keep your fish immune."


Jay

 

[GARRIGA]

Immunity is conferred only to fish that survive an active infection. It has been shown that immunity to Cryptocaryon is short, Noga says up to six months. Burgess says the same, and adds that all species are not protected (but does not elaborate). Do not rely on immunity to protect your fish.


What is your source for this?

"Those foods have living bacteria and will keep your fish immune."


Jay

Don't know the correlation between fish and reptiles but I went through a treatment process in 2009 to solve upper respiratory infections in my collection. All adult females were tested via lung flush and all were found to contain some pathogen of which I was told had unique strains related to my collection that may or may not exist in other collections. Adult females were chosen because all babies were produced by them and all adult males interacted with them during breeding trials. Pathogens were sent to a lab to create shots to build up immunity which were administered as increasing dosages over several months. Was told this was similar to building antibodies in horses for snake venom. My collection had around 14 adult females and around twice as many adult males and over 100 babies/yearlings which I believe is rather good sample size.

All females had pathogens but not all showed symptoms of URI yet since then I've only had one female develop URI. I've bred more than 100 unique animals and produced a thousand plus offsprings. Did not eradicate the pathogens in my facility as that was futile therefore all animals continued to be exposed to the same pathogens that were causing URI in those 2008 animals. All collections have pathogens. Most of those breeders remained with me for many more years and I still have offsprings from that collection although might be from their offsprings. Been to the vet once since and that was due to a male getting an infected hemipenis during breeding trials.

Never bothered doing lung flushes again but anecdotally concluded that the treatment likely worked since animals from that collection remained with me as late as 2019 and their offsprings still here today. I have 13 plus year old adults.

How I translate my experience to marine ich based on the premise those previously infected remain somewhat immune to existing pathogens and if it's temporary as the science indicates then keeping them healthy, stress free within reason and yet always exposed means then they likely remain immune or resistant. I'm not one to get hung up on exact syntax or terminology but hold onto the substance of what is being said therefore can one maintain a healthy population of fish that are constantly in contact with certain pathogens but a low enough levels to allow resistance/immunity to develop and through proper husbandry remain healthy since in nature this is likely what is happening and yet possible that those who do succumb to disease might have been because other issues that compromised their immune system and can no longer fight off attacks even if those are in low numbers.

Seems eradication might be futile for most since pathogens can be transmitted on CUC or small rock or plug added. How many really QT everything?

BTW, Been keeping on and off since the early 70s. Started with fresh as most did yet have only had one exposure to ich and it was in freshwater with Oscars I had acquired from an outdoor fish farm in south Miami and perhaps the ground water used as filtration was colder than usual. They literally performed constant water changes with aquafer water. Treatment was Seachem ParaGuard and high temps of 88. No clue if the ParaGuard worked but knew since a kid that high temps kill FW ich or at a minimum accelerate their life cycle. Fish recovered and nothing else was done. I'm sure the ich remained behind yet fish were then kept at 78 and fed 8 times daily and never acquired ich again. SW I believe don't react to high temps the same but understand their cycle are accelerated with higher temps. Those Oscars looked like salted fish. Perhaps the ParaGuard assisted the expedited life cycle due to high temps and that cured the fish then healthy living and prior exposure kept them immune or resistant.

Seems maintenance more likely within reach of most aquarist then hoping QT eradicates everything they wish didn't hitchhiked from the store. Sadly we the keepers pay the price of admission since many LFS keep their fish at lower salinity and drugged up on copper which might be hiding the truth of what they bring.

 

[Paul B]

What is your source for this?
"Those foods have living bacteria and will keep your fish immune."

My source is that my fish have gone 16,425 days so far with no communicable diseases. That is 45 years. That is my scientific source as I know of no scientific study that has lasted that long.

Burgess says the same, and adds that all species are not protected (but does not elaborate). Do not rely on immunity to protect your fish.

Burgess was wrong and I told him so. He did his studies of parasite longevity in the 70s and at that time it made sense because we all suffered through ich. Then many of us Geezers learned to keep our fish 100% immune. Not 99% because that would imply that at least one fish in those years died of ich. But that is not the case because immune fish don't die from any communicable diseases. (but they do die form other things and other non communicable diseases)

As I have said many times, it doesn't matter how many parasites there are as long as the fish is continually exposed. That is easy to accomplish or my tank and all old immune tanks would not exist.

I believe, and I could be wrong about the theory or method, but I am not wrong about the results and to me that is what matters. I don't care how many parasites there are, or how virulent they are as the fishes immunity will compensate and my tank proves that as well as my 2- 32 year old fish.

Burgess was correct that a fishes immunity will wane after a time differing with different species. But if you keep parasites in the tank with the fish and don't try to kill them, some of them will stay alive and well. Thats one reason my fish never get sick no matter how many ich infected fish I throw in.

People have ich problems for a few easy to remedy things. At least it seems easy to me and I am an electrician.

People fail to feed the correct foods. Dry foods (any kind) squid tentacles, shrimp, octopus and fish fillets are not the correct foods but I eat those foods. I don't eat the guts and stomach contents but all fish in the sea do. They don't spit out the guts or bones. They need the oils in the preys liver, the calcium in the bones and most importantly the gut bacteria that controls immunity almost 100%. I have posted scientific studies on this numerous times and I know you read them and dismissed them for one reason or another.

But I may have the oldest tank in the US and there is a reason for that and to me anyway, it has nothing to do with the number of parasites. My fish don't count the parasites, they just ignore them as they do in the sea where Mother Nature uses my method.

(Yes I keep tangs, butterflies and angels)

The other big problem many people fail at is the aquascape. Stress is the biggest killer of fish and if the fish can see you, they are stressed.

Jay I know you are much smarter than I am and know about genes and telemeres and how they control the life span of every living thing. You also probably know that stress shortens them as well as lifespan. I am sure you also know that I didn't make that up. (I wish I could) But because of my wife's MS we hang out with quite a few Neurologists and go to their conferences and learn about these things. Of course I have to figure out how that correlates to fish.

But I still love you. In a Manly sort of way.

Quarantine and medication of course is one way to go and it works. But to me those tanks are very fragile akin to a Human who has has radiation of Chemo. Those people look and feel lousy and are just about living on the edge. They can go on like that but the goal is for them to get back to living with normal people and not dying if someone sneezes on them.

Just my opinion of course and I am not argueing, Just discussing. Why would I change such a successful system?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Don't know the correlation between fish and reptiles but I went through a treatment process in 2009 to solve upper respiratory infections in my collection. All adult females were tested via lung flush and all were found to contain some pathogen of which I was told had unique strains related to my collection that may or may not exist in other collections. Adult females were chosen because all babies were produced by them and all adult males interacted with them during breeding trials. Pathogens were sent to a lab to create shots to build up immunity which were administered as increasing dosages over several months. Was told this was similar to building antibodies in horses for snake venom. My collection had around 14 adult females and around twice as many adult males and over 100 babies/yearlings which I believe is rather good sample size.

All females had pathogens but not all showed symptoms of URI yet since then I've only had one female develop URI. I've bred more than 100 unique animals and produced a thousand plus offsprings. Did not eradicate the pathogens in my facility as that was futile therefore all animals continued to be exposed to the same pathogens that were causing URI in those 2008 animals. All collections have pathogens. Most of those breeders remained with me for many more years and I still have offsprings from that collection although might be from their offsprings. Been to the vet once since and that was due to a male getting an infected hemipenis during breeding trials.

Never bothered doing lung flushes again but anecdotally concluded that the treatment likely worked since animals from that collection remained with me as late as 2019 and their offsprings still here today. I have 13 plus year old adults.

How I translate my experience to marine ich based on the premise those previously infected remain somewhat immune to existing pathogens and if it's temporary as the science indicates then keeping them healthy, stress free within reason and yet always exposed means then they likely remain immune or resistant. I'm not one to get hung up on exact syntax or terminology but hold onto the substance of what is being said therefore can one maintain a healthy population of fish that are constantly in contact with certain pathogens but a low enough levels to allow resistance/immunity to develop and through proper husbandry remain healthy since in nature this is likely what is happening and yet possible that those who do succumb to disease might have been because other issues that compromised their immune system and can no longer fight off attacks even if those are in low numbers.

Seems eradication might be futile for most since pathogens can be transmitted on CUC or small rock or plug added. How many really QT everything?

BTW, Been keeping on and off since the early 70s. Started with fresh as most did yet have only had one exposure to ich and it was in freshwater with Oscars I had acquired from an outdoor fish farm in south Miami and perhaps the ground water used as filtration was colder than usual. They literally performed constant water changes with aquafer water. Treatment was Seachem ParaGuard and high temps of 88. No clue if the ParaGuard worked but knew since a kid that high temps kill FW ich or at a minimum accelerate their life cycle. Fish recovered and nothing else was done. I'm sure the ich remained behind yet fish were then kept at 78 and fed 8 times daily and never acquired ich again. SW I believe don't react to high temps the same but understand their cycle are accelerated with higher temps. Those Oscars looked like salted fish. Perhaps the ParaGuard assisted the expedited life cycle due to high temps and that cured the fish then healthy living and prior exposure kept them immune or resistant.

Seems maintenance more likely within reach of most aquarist then hoping QT eradicates everything they wish didn't hitchhiked from the store. Sadly we the keepers pay the price of admission since many LFS keep their fish at lower salinity and drugged up on copper which might be hiding the truth of what they bring.

What was the pathogen?

 

[GARRIGA]

What was the pathogen?

Don't recall but they had a dozen and told that's typical of all collections and especially mine that came from a few breeders. Several were known to cause URI and others caused other concerns but key to me was getting the entire collection inoculated to what was there already.

 

[Doctorgori]

"If" you want to reduce parasites or trophants I feel a diatom filter would be your best bet. I know people use UV and maybe that works, I don't know, but I know they can't get through diatom powder. Just my thoughts.

I don't use a diatom filter for that but I do use one a few times a year to stir up my gravel over my reverse undergravel filter.

I’ve heard this works from more than one source…
This deserves more formalized research

My losses from ich & velvet over the years is heartbreaking, I’ve had at least 3 total wipeouts… Hundreds of fish over 40+ yrs…

QT worked. until it didn’t and any tank with royal grammas, fire fish and most gobies: near zero chance you are gonna catch ‘em even with traps

anyway, polylab medic + peroxide did work but my dosage was not proerly documented to advise anyone. I did overdose both … remove your turbos & shrimp
…. nerites and trochus seem less affected

 

[vetteguy53081]

I’ve heard this works from more than one source…
This deserves more formalized research

My losses from ich & velvet over the years is heartbreaking, I’ve had at least 3 total wipeouts… Hundreds of fish over 40+ yrs…

QT worked. until it didn’t and any tank with royal grammas, fire fish and most gobies: near zero chance you are gonna catch ‘em even with traps

anyway, polylab medic + peroxide did work but my dosage was not proerly documented to advise anyone. I did overdose both … remove your turbos & shrimp
…. nerites and trochus seem less affected

Diatoms are rare but effective

 

[Paul B]

Doctorgori. I use a diatom filter to stir up my gravel over my reverse undergravel a few times a year. But If I got a fish from someone or a store and I wanted to cure it, I would put it in a separate tank with copper, quinicrine hydrochloride (if I could still get it but I doubt it, and a diatom filter.

A few years ago I got a copperband and a clown gobi so covered in parasites that it looked like a sponge crab.
2 or 3 days and the parasites left the fish, at least I didn't see any but they were probably still in the gills. I threw those fish in my tank, and posted it on these forums someplace.
This may have been that gobi but I'm not sure. He went on to live out the rest of his natural lifespan.



The copperband (that I also posted about and is in my book) was tiny and my old copperband didn't get along with him so I caught him and gave him away. Of course none of the other fish in my tank exhibited any diseases.

I feel this is a very simple system but difficult to do in a new tank started with dry rock and ASW. I am also not sure why so many people are starting new tanks. This hobby is 52 years old, where are the tanks people started years ago? What happened to them. Most of the threads are people starting new tanks. I started my tank in a 40 gallon tank when the hobby started and it is still going.

Of course I lost a lot of fish and more corals. I also had a few almost total wipeouts, but never from disease.
My worst one was when my town added Zinc Orthophosphate to the water supply to control corrosion in the pipes. I did a water change and everything started dying. I caught about half my fish and put them back in the old water.

That was many years ago and I still have this fireclown from that episode.

Here she is with her eggs.



The other thing I screwed up was in the early days of the hobby all we had was dead coral skeletons. WE used to remove those dead corals and bleach them to make them white as that was what we thought a tank was supposed to look like.

You can see some of that dead bleached coral here. We thought this was a good looking, healthy tank then.



Once I used "New Fresh Scent Clorox" to bleach the corals and that instantly kills fish. I once put a cup of bleach in my tank (after I removed the fish) to kill thousands of tiny bristleworms, which we thought were bad then.

I also used that killer bleach and it didn't fare well and I had to rescue fish that didn't instantly croak.

 

[Paul B]

Diatoms are rare but effective

Yes they are, but I recently put a thread on here how to make a simple one for a little over $100.00. Very simple to build, set up and use. If you are concerned about parasites (I'm not) these filters will remove any free swimming parasites.

 

[DJF]

"If" you want to reduce parasites or trophants I feel a diatom filter would be your best bet. I know people use UV and maybe that works, I don't know, but I know they can't get through diatom powder. Just my thoughts.

I don't use a diatom filter for that but I do use one a few times a year to stir up my gravel over my reverse undergravel filter.

100% this advice. Read it in @Paul B book years ago and was the best thing I did. If Vortex was safer, id recommend them to everyone

 

[Paul B]

Why aren't Vortex safe? I don't use them because they went out of business many years ago so I build them now. I would not be in this hobby without one.

 

[DJF]

Why aren't Vortex safe? I don't use them because they went out of business many years ago so I build them now. I would not be in this hobby without one.

Well I got zapped more than once by mine but I’m admittedly not the most careful. Not enough to trip anything but enough to energize me for the task the metal housing isn’t the safest imho. I like what I’m seeing above; is there a link to more info?

 

[Doctorgori]

Diatoms are rare but effective

The motor head on Supreme Filters was similar to Vortex Diatoms: The windings lasted forever but the metal housing was a rust bucket. Marineland has a pleated filter cartridge you can “ charge” with diatom powder but 2 or 3 uses and the cartridge is trash

Doctorgori. I use a diatom filter to stir up my gravel over my reverse undergravel a few times a year. But If I got a fish from someone or a store and I wanted to cure it, I would put it in a separate tank with copper, quinicrine hydrochloride (if I could still get it but I doubt it, and a diatom filter.

A few years ago I got a copperband and a clown gobi so covered in parasites that it looked like a sponge crab.
2 or 3 days and the parasites left the fish, at least I didn't see any but they were probably still in the gills. I threw those fish in my tank, and posted it on these forums someplace.
This may have been that gobi but I'm not sure. He went on to live out the rest of his natural lifespan.



The copperband (that I also posted about and is in my book) was tiny and my old copperband didn't get along with him so I caught him and gave him away. Of course none of the other fish in my tank exhibited any diseases.

I feel this is a very simple system but difficult to do in a new tank started with dry rock and ASW. I am also not sure why so many people are starting new tanks. This hobby is 52 years old, where are the tanks people started years ago? What happened to them. Most of the threads are people starting new tanks. I started my tank in a 40 gallon tank when the hobby started and it is still going.

Of course I lost a lot of fish and more corals. I also had a few almost total wipeouts, but never from disease.
My worst one was when my town added Zinc Orthophosphate to the water supply to control corrosion in the pipes. I did a water change and everything started dying. I caught about half my fish and put them back in the old water.

That was many years ago and I still have this fireclown from that episode.

Here she is with her eggs.



The other thing I screwed up was in the early days of the hobby all we had was dead coral skeletons. WE used to remove those dead corals and bleach them to make them white as that was what we thought a tank was supposed to look like.

You can see some of that dead bleached coral here. We thought this was a good looking, healthy tank then.



Once I used "New Fresh Scent Clorox" to bleach the corals and that instantly kills fish. I once put a cup of bleach in my tank (after I removed the fish) to kill thousands of tiny bristleworms, which we thought were bad then.

I also used that killer bleach and it didn't fare well and I had to rescue fish that didn't instantly croak.

heck Paul no doubt you got a whole microbiogical “Food chain” of bug on bug crime in your tanks… I totally agree the biodiversity is helping … yup certainly something eats ich tomonts ….

 

[GARRIGA]

Have you considered hooking this up to your undergravel tubes and instead of reverse flow have them suck the water as you stir the gravel and point the effluent at the surface just incase hydrogen sulfide picked up? Would also grab anything dislodged from the gravel without causing cloudiness in the display.

Part of my design for main build is placing plates and drilling the tank thereby drawing water then running it through Big Blue filters and several downsizing cartridges with the last being 10 micron but that one only periodically. Assuming that’s small enough to remove ich but could go with one micron if needed. Regular use I’d likely keep it at 50 microns or above for the smallest. Flow would be set at slowest possible as I’ll have other filtration.

 

[Paul B]

the metal housing isn’t the safest imho. I like what I’m seeing above; is there a link to more info?

Yes there is:

DIY Diatom Filter for under $100.00

I have 4 or 5 old Vortex Diatom filters in various stages of disintegration and I use one all the time to stir up the gravel in my 125 gallon tank. I also use it to blow out detritus in the pores my real rock. The tank uses dolomite gravel and the gravel has been in there for the 52 year life of...

www.reef2reef.com

Have you considered hooking this up to your undergravel tubes and instead of reverse flow have them suck the water as you stir the gravel and point the effluent at the surface just incase hydrogen sulfide picked up?

With a Reverse Undergravel Filter you don't get any hydrogen sulfide. That only comes with sand. I use gravel and stir it up every few months. I don't mind the clouded tank when I use a diatom filter. The fish love it.

I think 10 microns is much to large to remove ich, but Jay would know that better than me.