Metal Halides are the bomb

Turd Ferguson

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PAR is actually reported as: 200-250 molm2sec (micromole per square meter per second) or 750-800 molm2sec, not W (watts).
The corals will only suffer when we don't adapt them correctly. If we do it slow they won't manifest anything wrong. You can see them adapting in terms of changing colors a bit in the process and sometimes they even stop growing in the beginning, but when they start to process and balance everything, including their zooxanthellae population, in the right rates, they get on track for their best growth and pigment production. I do not change them to a "better spot", never did. They don't need that at all. What we should do is to choose the best spot and leave them there, adapting the light slowly. Even the so called "deep water Acros" can support and do really well under halides at the top. So adaptation is the key. Trust me... any light change needs to happen slow and don't change it anymore. Only when changing bulbs. Try to get the same bulb always and adapt them to the new bulb. Changing spectrum or even ballasts could provoke new adaptation cycles. Not a big deal.
PAR is actually reported as: 200-250 molm2sec (micromole per square meter per second) or 750-800 molm2sec, not W (watts).

Brain fart - thank you for the correction.

Gotta stop drinking Jameson while perusing R2R :)
 
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rtparty

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Without getting into all the details, a lot of the BRS assumptions in here are false. Disclaimer: I do not work for BRS. I don't speak for BRS. I just know some things and will pass them along.

Currently, you can't do a pass through style order with BRS. Tullio talked to me about this when I wanted to buy all my Reef Brite stuff. He suggested a few different companies. I went with Premium Aquatics since I've used them in the past. I bought bulbs and reflectors through PA. Bought the ballasts from BRS since they sell them. (Speaking of which, there are awesome Open Box halide deals on BRS right now.)

While halide sales have picked up in recent years, LEDs are outselling them 100:1 or better. It makes no sense for BRS to continue using up valuable shelf space for products that don't move. Shelf space is an absolute premium at BRS right now. They usually have to get rid of items to bring in new items.

Ryan has stated many times his favorite setup ever was Radiums. He even talked about doing a one off setup running Radiums again.

My personal opinion is we see BRS run some halides again at some point. My hope is we see a long term test running all three technologies. Three displays all attached to the same sump. Same fish and same corals placed in each tank. Setup each light how they would be run normally in our homes. Don't sit and fine tune everything to match PAR and all that. Put the LEDs on their recommended settings. Put the T5s 8" over the tank. Use the correct halide setup. Let it run for a year. Could be super cool.

I routinely bug the guys at BRS to bring back halides. At a minimum bring back Reef Brite stuff. Customers are just going to buy it elsewhere.
 

A. grandis

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Without getting into all the details, a lot of the BRS assumptions in here are false. Disclaimer: I do not work for BRS. I don't speak for BRS. I just know some things and will pass them along.

Currently, you can't do a pass through style order with BRS. Tullio talked to me about this when I wanted to buy all my Reef Brite stuff. He suggested a few different companies. I went with Premium Aquatics since I've used them in the past. I bought bulbs and reflectors through PA. Bought the ballasts from BRS since they sell them. (Speaking of which, there are awesome Open Box halide deals on BRS right now.)

While halide sales have picked up in recent years, LEDs are outselling them 100:1 or better. It makes no sense for BRS to continue using up valuable shelf space for products that don't move. Shelf space is an absolute premium at BRS right now. They usually have to get rid of items to bring in new items.

Ryan has stated many times his favorite setup ever was Radiums. He even talked about doing a one off setup running Radiums again.

My personal opinion is we see BRS run some halides again at some point. My hope is we see a long term test running all three technologies. Three displays all attached to the same sump. Same fish and same corals placed in each tank. Setup each light how they would be run normally in our homes. Don't sit and fine tune everything to match PAR and all that. Put the LEDs on their recommended settings. Put the T5s 8" over the tank. Use the correct halide setup. Let it run for a year. Could be super cool.

I routinely bug the guys at BRS to bring back halides. At a minimum bring back Reef Brite stuff. Customers are just going to buy it elsewhere.
Well, "shelf space" with Hamilton gear is not a huge deal when you actually don't have the gear on shelves at BRS, because the gear is sent from Hamilton to customers, right? Am I missing something here?
There is absolutely no need for any comparison when some of the most reputable (read priority to quality) corals growers are still using halides. They do use T5s and LEDs too, but they keep their halides as their prime source of artificial light. T5s win the second place, then LEDs.
But your comparison will be more than welcome, of course. It's always great to have something like that published.
You are right... customers will just buy elsewhere... that is why there must be some other reason behind it, when they are loosing sales like that.
And the open boxes' deals they have right now are most likely from returns.

Edit: maybe @Bulk Reef Supply could come here and let us know what's going on.
 
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Kfactor

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I think brs pushes led because they are all sponsored by them wouldn’t be nice to get a bunch of free stuff all the time lol
 
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A. grandis

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I think brs pushes led because they are all sponsored by them wouldn’t be nice to get a bunch of free stuff all the time lol
Of course... LEDs are sponsoring YouTube channels, stores, etc. Beginners are having a great time making videos and being sponsored in less than a year as long as they get enough subscribers to be sponsored. Even old timers are being sponsored by the LED train and accepting their labels. LED companies are getting their investment back with sales big time. It's just the way it is. I don't blame them and I know that is supposed to happen. Not a crime! Problem is when that actually compromises quality and/or controls the market to the point only Pepsi will be available, and if you like Coca-Cola you will die dry!
 
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rtparty

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I think brs pushes led because they are all sponsored by them wouldn’t be nice to get a bunch of free stuff all the time lol
Is BRS sponsored? Have they ever said that?

Laws are very strict and super regulated when it comes to that kind of stuff. If you are receiving free gear for reviews/videos/posts/etc. , you must disclose that.

Or is BRS talking about and producing videos on the most bought items?

People seem to forget a couple things:

1) BRS is a business. They exist to make money by selling stuff. If people really believe they are a shill and just pushing product, that's their opinion and they're entitled to it. They're wrong but that's okay ;)

2) The market decides what is popular. If enough people are willing to pay for a product and are happy with the results, then none of us can argue that. Facts don't really matter. Apple and Android. Coke and Pepsi. Ford and Chevy. Tropic Marin and Instant Ocean. LED and Halide. People will pick their favorites and defend that decision even if they don't have the facts on their side. Like LED people, they're wrong too ;)
 

JCOLE

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Is BRS sponsored? Have they ever said that?

Laws are very strict and super regulated when it comes to that kind of stuff. If you are receiving free gear for reviews/videos/posts/etc. , you must disclose that.

Or is BRS talking about and producing videos on the most bought items?

People seem to forget a couple things:

1) BRS is a business. They exist to make money by selling stuff. If people really believe they are a shill and just pushing product, that's their opinion and they're entitled to it. They're wrong but that's okay ;)

2) The market decides what is popular. If enough people are willing to pay for a product and are happy with the results, then none of us can argue that. Facts don't really matter. Apple and Android. Coke and Pepsi. Ford and Chevy. Tropic Marin and Instant Ocean. LED and Halide. People will pick their favorites and defend that decision even if they don't have the facts on their side. Like LED people, they're wrong too ;)

I think that is the point though. With BRS, it isnt the issue of which is better, LED vs Halide which is absolutely ok. However, when you remove Halides all together then you remove the option to allow the customer to decide what to buy from them. You're right, and it is a business. Which does seem a little weird, as a business it is potentially sending away customers that want Halide gear, etc. That would be like a grocery store removing Coke from their shelves and only stocking with Pepsi. They can do it all they want but it seems a disservice to the Customer.

I just found out yesterday that Halides are no longer sold at BRS so I am not trying to push theories, etc. However, to me, it does seem that they want to eliminate the direct competition to LEDs, etc altogether from their website. Just seems a little weird they would do this considering it was usually a direct buy from the manufacturer to begin with.

Again, just theories and it would be best to hear from them.
 

Turd Ferguson

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there is a video out there from the owner of Reefbrite which provide what I feel is a unbiased and helpful review of their different lighting options. And the dude states, MH, is indeed the best, even though I’m sure the majority of their business is derived from LED sales. The XHO is a awesome light strip.

Not too many vendors or You tube‘ers offer a unbiased info these days. It unfortunate when some do a biased review , the latest and greatest, stating the fixture is now a “MH Killer” I don’t believe this is helpful for the new hobbiest

whats happening to MH reminds me of the bike industry. They shift technologies to make last years gear obsolete even though everything is perfectly functional. I.e. 23c tires, compatible Shimano old/new gen are very difficult to source. New rage is disc brakes and 25c tires. Guess all those studies years ago trying to sell is 22 and 23c tires were BS?

Too BRS doesn’t carry MH.. guessing they are slim margins. Stock up folks. methinks in a couple years you won’t be able to buy MH Fixtures and bulbs.
 
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rtparty

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I think that is the point though. With BRS, it isnt the issue of which is better, LED vs Halide which is absolutely ok. However, when you remove Halides all together then you remove the option to allow the customer to decide what to buy from them. You're right, and it is a business. Which does seem a little weird, as a business it is potentially sending away customers that want Halide gear, etc. That would be like a grocery store removing Coke from their shelves and only stocking with Pepsi. They can do it all they want but it seems a disservice to the Customer.

I just found out yesterday that Halides are no longer sold at BRS so I am not trying to push theories, etc. However, to me, it does seem that they want to eliminate the direct competition to LEDs, etc altogether from their website. Just seems a little weird they would do this considering it was usually a direct buy from the manufacturer to begin with.

Again, just theories and it would be best to hear from them.
Your analogy doesn't fit here. Coke owns the drink market and it's not even close. Something like 80%. So a grocery store would do everyone a major disservice not carrying it.

But let's look at this with some numbers. These are made up numbers but probably not far off.

Let's say LEDs own 98% of the market. T5s own 1.5% and halides make up the final .5% (Again, I doubt this all that far off.) T5s are only relevant because of the LED hybrid setups going on and I doubt they stay popular. ATI has discontinued the 4 bulb Sunpowers so that shows how few of those are selling.

Who is BRS providing a disservice to? The 1 in 1000 looking to buy a halide setup? Or do they disservice 999 by not having the shelf space to bring in the "next big LED" that claims to be the MH killer?

Ryan has said this many times, "BRS can't be everything to everyone." Yes, they lose out on some sales but the number is beyond miniscule at this point.

My bet after talking to many is these companies would love for halides to catch back on. Many people miss them.

In choosing my halide setup, I talked directly to Tullio at Reef Brite and he assured me they have plenty of stock on hand. Public aquariums still use them and halides are in high demand from them. So I'm not too worried about getting halide stuff for the next 5-10 years. I'll buy extra if need be. By that time, LED makers will probably have something much better that will actually keep up with halides. A few are getting close IMO but still fall short.
 
AS

JCOLE

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Your analogy doesn't fit here. Coke owns the drink market and it's not even close. Something like 80%. So a grocery store would do everyone a major disservice not carrying it.

But let's look at this with some numbers. These are made up numbers but probably not far off.

Let's say LEDs own 98% of the market. T5s own 1.5% and halides make up the final .5% (Again, I doubt this all that far off.) T5s are only relevant because of the LED hybrid setups going on and I doubt they stay popular. ATI has discontinued the 4 bulb Sunpowers so that shows how few of those are selling.

Who is BRS providing a disservice to? The 1 in 1000 looking to buy a halide setup? Or do they disservice 999 by not having the shelf space to bring in the "next big LED" that claims to be the MH killer?

Ryan has said this many times, "BRS can't be everything to everyone." Yes, they lose out on some sales but the number is beyond miniscule at this point.

My bet after talking to many is these companies would love for halides to catch back on. Many people miss them.

In choosing my halide setup, I talked directly to Tullio at Reef Brite and he assured me they have plenty of stock on hand. Public aquariums still use them and halides are in high demand from them. So I'm not too worried about getting halide stuff for the next 5-10 years. I'll buy extra if need be. By that time, LED makers will probably have something much better that will actually keep up with halides. A few are getting close IMO but still fall short.

I wouldn't go as far as saying Coke owns the market. Also, I am sure we will see Coke take a backseat after what Coke has put themselves into over the last couple of months. That's for another discussion though. If Grocery stores remove Coke then the only disservice will be to Coke drinkers. They will either have to buy something else or go to another store.

Anyways, back to the Halide topic. Over the last 5-6 years LEDs have been at the top because of numerous reasons. Like others have stated though ALOT of that is do to Marketing by vendors, youtubers, blacklight rave trade shows with orange glasses, etc. This has caused a huge influx of lights purchased especially by newer hobbyists that have no other option besides what is being pushed at them....cough cough.

What we have seen and this thread is a good example of that, is a lot of experienced hobbyists and other hobbyists looking for a cheaper lighting source that can grow anything are looking back at halides and T5s.

I don't know the motive as to why these lighting options are not being pushed more but we can all speculate. I just hope that we don't see this technology disappear because I think that would be a major blow to this hobby.
 

Kfactor

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I don’t think they will go away I don’t think halides sell a lot because no one has them on there sites hardly I think if you were to bring back some good stock I think ppl would be surprised. I went back to halides because I was sick of all the Burnt lenses and the problems they gave me and I missed my old halides on my tank I had along time ago . Now that I went back to halides (reefbrites) I don’t see my self ever going back to leds I think the reefbrites are absolutely sexy fixtures .
 

rtparty

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I wouldn't go as far as saying Coke owns the market. Also, I am sure we will see Coke take a backseat after what Coke has put themselves into over the last couple of months. That's for another discussion though. If Grocery stores remove Coke then the only disservice will be to Coke drinkers. They will either have to buy something else or go to another store.

Anyways, back to the Halide topic. Over the last 5-6 years LEDs have been at the top because of numerous reasons. Like others have stated though ALOT of that is do to Marketing by vendors, youtubers, blacklight rave trade shows with orange glasses, etc. This has caused a huge influx of lights purchased especially by newer hobbyists that have no other option besides what is being pushed at them....cough cough.

What we have seen and this thread is a good example of that, is a lot of experienced hobbyists and other hobbyists looking for a cheaper lighting source that can grow anything are looking back at halides and T5s.

I don't know the motive as to why these lighting options are not being pushed more but we can all speculate. I just hope that we don't see this technology disappear because I think that would be a major blow to this hobby.
100% it will be a major blow to the hobby. It's already been a major blow.

The 2 biggest problems plaguing the hobby are LEDs (and all they bring) and dry rock.
 

Turd Ferguson

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I don’t think they will go away I don’t think halides sell a lot because no one has them on there sites hardly I think if you were to bring back some good stock I think ppl would be surprised. I went back to halides because I was sick of all the Burnt lenses and the problems they gave me and I missed my old halides on my tank I had along time ago . Now that I went back to halides (reefbrites) I don’t see my self ever going back to leds I think the reefbrites are absolutely sexy fixtures .

Let's hope so.

I'd be keen to see a poll of old school reefers who use halides, or made the switch to back halides versus new hobbies who go halides. I'd guess for most newbs, MH isn't even on the radar.

I looked on the BRS website and they still sell bulbs. Is the understanding that once stock depletes they won't order replacement? I can see not stocking fixture (maybe offer custom order), although there is money in bulbs and I would think they tie up much cash in inventory nor shelf space.

BTW: the only places in Canada I've found that sell halides are JL Aquatics and Reefsupplies. Should I need to buy out of the US, any recommendations?

Also, how would you compare the Reefbrite MH fixture to Hamilton? I've been considering buying a 24" Cebu Sun as I've spare T5s from my old fixture and the Cayman Sun has been serving me well.
 

Kfactor

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Let's hope so.

I'd be keen to see a poll of old school reefers who use halides, or made the switch to back halides versus new hobbies who go halides. I'd guess for most newbs, MH isn't even on the radar.

I looked on the BRS website and they still sell bulbs. Is the understanding that once stock depletes they won't order replacement? I can see not stocking fixture (maybe offer custom order), although there is money in bulbs and I would think they tie up much cash in inventory nor shelf space.

BTW: the only places in Canada I've found that sell halides are JL Aquatics and Reefsupplies. Should I need to buy out of the US, any recommendations?

Also, how would you compare the Reefbrite MH fixture to Hamilton? I've been considering buying a 24" Cebu Sun as I've spare T5s from my old fixture and the Cayman Sun has been serving me well.
Am just getting my new tank going don’t have nothing to compare the Hamilton one . I found my other reefbrite though bayside corals Colby is awsome to deal with and will go out of his way to find stuff he’s the only one in Canada who would take the time to order me it . I think the other guys didn’t have to help me because they want to sell there leds . I don’t think you can go wrong with Hamilton/reefbrite or others .
 

A. grandis

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Watch the whole video if you can.
BRS is following their texts in chronological order.
Take your conclusions.
I already called them here, so would be interesting to hear directly from them.
Remember: result is what matters the most!
 
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oreo5457

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Watch the whole video if you can.
BRS is following their texts in chronological order.
Take your conclusions.
I already called them here, so would be interesting to hear directly from them.
Remember: result is what matters the most!
So what part does the "church of halides" find the most threatening?
Actually most is fairly common sense.
Most LED's still need a wider "blue" spectrum though.
Biggest problem is there are no "reef centric" LEd's like tubes and MH's.
Really who but you (community in general) wants a "20000K" bulb?
Well mercury lamps were close. so loved in the general world.. ;)

oceancomp.JPG

Grey shade is surface spectrum
took years to get "lucky" w/ t5 and mh spectrums..
 

A. grandis

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I just like how everyone compares led to mh and try to make them just like mh why not just use mh and be done with it lol
Yes, that is the most amazing thing, Kfator!
That is what I tell everyone that sees my tank and say they wish they had their systems like mine. This life goes too fast to waste time with LEDs!!!! Specially when we have to pay that much money for such inferior results!
Unless you don't know any better!
Or, if they actually like or prefer the results from LEDs.
 
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WHAT WATER CHANGE "PERCENTAGE" MAKES IT WORTH DOING?

  • 5% - 10%

    Votes: 73 9.4%
  • 10% - 20%

    Votes: 402 52.0%
  • 20% - 30%

    Votes: 182 23.5%
  • 30% - 40%

    Votes: 25 3.2%
  • 40% - 50%

    Votes: 17 2.2%
  • 50% or more

    Votes: 8 1.0%
  • No water change is worth it

    Votes: 30 3.9%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 13 1.7%
  • Other (please explain in the thread)

    Votes: 23 3.0%
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