Metal Halides are the bomb

oreo5457

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It's more comparing spectrum and intensity of different light sources. The subtility eludes many.
You want to throw shading into it fine but mh's shade.
Each has it's plusses and minuses, strengths and weaknesses.

Mh's didn't start out tailored for corals
It took time
The first high intensity ( yep only reason they got where they are..mh's that is) light sources were hps.
I would not recommend it, the last tank I had seen with Sodium bulbs was 10+ years ago I guess... IMO I would not go back to the stone age ;)
i do not believe that sanjay discussed or specifically mentioned pcs, vhos or nos.

however, he did discuss basic facts about light that would be generally usefully knowledge. one example is that it does not matter what the source of a photon is. it doesn't matter whether it comes from a flashlight, pc, led or mh, but what does matter is the amount of photons being made available over a given area over a certain period of time, that is par (photosynthetically available radiation). it is the amount of par that our corals are given which determines the amount of energy available fro our corals to absorb and thus affecting their health.
 
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Aquarium Specialty - dry goods & marine livestock

A. grandis

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I've posted some of these info before in other threads, but the subject keeps coming back, so I think it's ok to post as needed...

Dr. Sanjay's tank is now perishing, in comparison to what he had under halides!
I already told him that twice!
And he said that he is actually WASTING lots of electricity with those Radions!
He said he is using more wattage with those LEDs than with the halides.
In addition he is also using 3 X 300W heaters just to TRY to reach the ideal temperature for the system while using those LEDs. WHY????

Compare the systems:
3 X 400W halides:

8 Radions after about 7 years (poor corals!):

Halides or LEDs, Dr. Sanjay?
We all know that we need to use the halides according to the different applications.
We can use down to 70W halide bulbs over smaller tanks. In fact, we've also got 175W, 250W, 400W, 600W, 1000W halides.
So Dr. Sanjay made a mistake saying that halides are only for large tanks.
The QUALITIES of light is what makes halides the king of lights!!!

Watt for watt:
That's not only for a big tank. It's for any size tank!
Application accordingly to what we have.
And the growth IS STILL SLOWER under LEDs!
Why invest so much for less quality????????

Again, watch the whole video. It's always great to hear from Dr. Sanjay!
Take your conclusions.
 

A. grandis

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If the "Guru of reef lighting" can't have better results than metal halides using what many people think (or were thought to believe) is one of the best LED fixtures available in terms of quality, Radion, no one can!
 
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A. grandis

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This is a halide thread and we shouldn't be trying to prove anything, but newbies could come here too, so...

What is the BEST LED SYSTEM IN THE WORLD to you?
Or one of the best? Lani?
Here:
Can you do better than that using T5s only? I can!!!
I can't say for sure, but look like this system was puzzled with grown coral colonies. Look like it's a temporary display or something. I think this is the most expensive LED in the world (?)!! It costs 999€ for a 16" X 16" fixture (blue, white and UV). If you choose the Lani PRO you would have to pay 1369€ for the same 16" X 16" (blue, royal blue, cyan, green, white, & UV).
Just to mimic T5s? No way!
Do you think that clam looks healthy, at it's best? Hummm.
This tank would be spectacular under halide/T5s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Mike konesky

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It's more comparing spectrum and intensity of different light sources. The subtility eludes many.
You want to throw shading into it fine but mh's shade.
Each has it's plusses and minuses, strengths and weaknesses.

Mh's didn't start out tailored for corals
It took time
The first high intensity ( yep only reason they got where they are..mh's that is) light sources were hps.


Pretty sure the first HID lamp was a mercury vapor, which reportedly had a blue look to it. I may be mistaken.
 
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A. grandis

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Pretty sure the first HID lamp was a mercury vapor, which reportedly had a blue look to it. I may be mistaken.
Yes. This what the "real" spectrum chart for Radium and Hamilton 20K look like:
1620663798687.png


And this is and example when comparing the 250W to the 400W Radium bulbs.
1620664015511.png
 

infinite0180

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It's more comparing spectrum and intensity of different light sources. The subtility eludes many.
You want to throw shading into it fine but mh's shade.
Each has it's plusses and minuses, strengths and weaknesses.

Mh's didn't start out tailored for corals
It took time
The first high intensity ( yep only reason they got where they are..mh's that is) light sources were hps.


What kind of lighting do you run on your tank?
 

oreo5457

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Pretty sure the first HID lamp was a mercury vapor, which reportedly had a blue look to it. I may be mistaken.
Point was any high par light source was the driving source.

If vho's had power densities of say 200w in 24" the likelihood of using any HID source would have diminished if not never had occurred.
Driving force was simply watts sq ft ("PAR"/sq ft if you prefer) so to speak.
1960’s – Largely Incandescent Lighting. Not suitable for reef tanks.
1970’s – Largely Fluorescent Lighting (T12). Often not bright enough for reef tanks.
1980’s – VHO fluorescent and Metal Halide Lighting. Reef tanks start to appear using one or both technologies.
1990’s – Compact Fluorescent Lighting (T8 & T5) Smaller, brighter and more efficient than VHO.
2000’s – High Intensity LED Lighting. Compact, bright, efficient.

Spectrum followed based on light attenuation.
Spectrum was, and is still far from " natural" but it worked. Turned out to be good enough (as to nature and possibly better in some areas but I digress) and due to a sort if natural! rgb effect (green and amber mercury spikes), visually appealing.
Same w t5's after tri- phosphor improvements.

I'd be curious to how well plain mercury lamps worked in growing corals, ugly color and all.
Who knows, may beat other light sources.
See power was not the only factor "looks" mattered.

Nothing against mh's . The constant degrading of an evolving (like HID did) and frankly popular for many reasons is err not very helpful to put it nicely.
Accusing brs if being machivellian certainly doesn't look good. Sure there are business decision driven in part by err profit and convenience but also by demand.
Don't like their "politics" on MH's go somewhere else, find other data ect.

I' m sure there were "fun" discussions on vho vs " the sparkly new kid MH's"

Heck even in 2006 there was debate on what actinic does ..
Cultivated Reef
Do actinics provide any value to corals?
By junkitu, September 21, 2006 in Lighting Forum






Natural conditions have caused all corals and invertebrates to adapt to bluer light. Therefore, most lighting systems include bulbs that focus specifically on blue wavelengths. Fluorescent systems, for example, offer blue bulbs called actinic bulbs. While most corals and invertebrates thrive under blue light, most people find blue-lit reef aquariums rather unattractive. This aesthetic dilemma can be solved by combining an actinic light with a white light. Most reef aquariums thrive under a half-and-half blue/white light combination in which the white lights give light in the range of 8000 to 12000 K. This lighting combination gives corals and invertebrates the spectrum necessary for growth, in addition to the spectrum necessary for accurate color rendering within the aquarium.


For all intents and purposes actinic is purely aesthetic. It may provide a slight benefit for coral growth but actinics are mainly there for our viewing pleasure. They make the coral colors pop whereas the whiter/yellow light makes the corals grow.


Posted September 21, 2006
All opinions will be mixed on the subject...Ive seen comparisons in coral health that have showed that they do help but Im not so sure I believe them...

i think its kind of out of the scope of most members of this board. Its a matter how how the chloroplast uses different wavelengths of light to perform photosynthesis. I'd ask a biologist


Posted September 22, 2006
There will be enough of the blue spectrum in your daylight lamps for your corals. so for your purpose, the actinics is purely for aesthetics


Blue actinic lights are targeted for this spectrum so they should help stimulate photosynthesis in zooxantellae. This is not to say that your 10K lights will not have enough of the blue spectrum in them for growth as indicated by Keith Man. I think $aint sums up why we use daylight spectrum lights quite well. His summary alines with what is written in “The Reef Aquarium, Volume 1”.



Fortunately, fluorescence in coral is triggered best by light in the blue/green range, which is why actinic lights cause corals to fluoresce more. The local marine society had a guest speaker this past month who studies this for a living (great work if you can get it - night diving with blue flashlights in the Caribbean ). He was showing off blue led flashlights combined with yellowish glasses that made the coral fluoresce like crazy with night viewing. The yellowish brown glasses filter out the blue light (yellow/brown is also the dominate color of zooxanthellae as well – which is why they absorb blue light so well) from the flashlight allowing you to see the light emitted by the fluorescing corals much better. The results are amazing. See attached pic of a doughnut coral and zoos in my tank using the blue led light and filter. This is one reason that actinic lights cause coral’s color to seem more colorful than straight daylight.




The reason I state that it is mainly for aesthetics is twofold. First, actinics put out a very narrow band of wavelengths that do make corals look better but do not in any way simulate natural sunlight. Since these corals have adapted to use sunlight (in its entire spectrum), shooting a narrow wavelength at them is obviously not going to get them everything they receive in nature; which ultimately is what we are trying to duplicate in our homes.



Second, look at people who use 20K bulbs (very similar to actinics in the amount of blue light they produce). Growth is almost always reported as lacking. If blue light was really what corals were 'fine tuned' to receive for photosynthesis than 20K bulbs should produce massive growth. The idea that corals need mostly blue light is bogus. Are red wavelengths absorbed first as light filters through water? Yes. Does that mean corals are only using blue light since the red light gets filtered out? Obviously not.



The fact of the matter is there are two many unknowns to really answer this question absolutely. But if you look at what is reported around the hobby it becomes fairly obvious that coral growth requires the full spectrum of light (white light) and that people who have the blue actinics/bulbs are using this blue light to enhance the coloration of their livestock not to promote the growth/health of said livestock.
LED's aren't going away, nor VHO, T5's, MH, prob. CMH until profits decrease.
All have proven successful. All will be successful. "Degree of success" is variable.

Think of the literally dozens of MH bulbs and fixtures that have "disappeared" over time.
Same w/ LED.
What kind of lighting do you run on your tank?
I build and design fw lighting. Reef lighting research is a hobby.

Happy?

How many high quality
Leds have you used for over a year?

IF one hasn't done their own independent study on MH vs led under controlled conditions you are basing everything on othr s hearsay..
Well so am I .
No different really.
It's all ones opinion.
 
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A. grandis

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OK...
I didn't want to be unfair nor play the bad guy here. The best thing to do is to call BRS directly, if they don't come here, right?
I called BRS and spoke to Tyler on the phone. He said Ryan doesn't have a direct line (?) and it would be better to reach him through Instagram or something. I asked to talk to a buyer or a supervisor, but he insisted to know what was the reason for the call.
I told Tyler I want to know why they are not selling any halide gear anymore and I asked if the main reason was to promote LEDs. He said the reason is because there is no demand for them. I told them that is not true and how much Hamilton and ReefBrite has been selling lately and that Hamilton is out of stock for most of their line, producing to restock at the moment, but he didn't confirm high sales from BRS, so...
I asked if they were trying to push LED sales because they would get more money and he didn't confirm that. Yes, I am crazy! Ha!
I told Tyle that many people are actually importing the Giesemann Spectra because they are not selling them anymore and they are loosing money that way!
When he said there is no demand I told him that isn't true by what others have said lately. Well... I did my part. If anyone here wants them to sell halides call them and bug them about it! Don't be afraid! They won't bite you!

Spoke with Hamilton this morning and Dave confirmed the high sales and that the majority of the orders are coming from their website and from Marine Depot.

Spoke with Tullio also and he confirmed higher sales and the main distributor for ReefBite now is Premium Aquatics.
 
Maxout

infinite0180

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Point was any high par light source was the driving source.

If vho's had power densities of say 200w in 24" the likelihood of using any HID source would have diminished if not never had occurred.
Driving force was simply watts sq ft ("PAR"/sq ft if you prefer) so to speak.


Spectrum followed based on light attenuation.
Spectrum was, and is still far from " natural" but it worked. Turned out to be good enough (as to nature and possibly better in some areas but I digress) and due to a sort if natural! rgb effect (green and amber mercury spikes), visually appealing.
Same w t5's after tri- phosphor improvements.

I'd be curious to how well plain mercury lamps worked in growing corals, ugly color and all.
Who knows, may beat other light sources.
See power was not the only factor "looks" mattered.


Nothing against mh's . The constant degrading of an evolving (like HID did) and frankly popular for many reasons is err not very helpful to put it nicely.
Accusing brs if being machivellian certainly doesn't look good. Sure there are business decision driven in part by err profit and convenience but also by demand.
Don't like their "politics" on MH's go somewhere else, find other data ect.

I' m sure there were "fun" discussions on vho vs " the sparkly new kid MH's"

Heck even in 2006 there was debate on what actinic does ..

LED's aren't going away, nor VHO, T5's, MH, prob. CMH until profits decrease.
All have proven successful. All will be successful. "Degree of success" is variable.

Think of the literally dozens of MH bulbs and fixtures that have "disappeared" over time.
Same w/ LED.

I build and design fw lighting. Reef lighting research is a hobby.

Happy?

How many high quality
Leds have you used for over a year?

IF one hasn't done their own independent study on MH vs led under controlled conditions you are basing everything on othr s hearsay..
Well so am I .
No different really.
It's all ones opinion
That was a serious question. I see you posting all the time i was just curious what you used. I can respect that you are into reef lighting as a hobby, especially if your a light builder.

I ran Radion gen 4 for a few years, i would consider that high quality. I had mild success i suppose. I just recently switched to T5 and then now to T5/MH. Im just exploring the hobby. I would go back to led if i felt it was necessary. Soo far i can see advantages and disadvantages to each type of lighting. This MH light is pretty unique though, one month with it and im pretty sold on its ability.
 

oreo5457

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That was a serious question. I see you posting all the time i was just curious what you used. I can respect that you are into reef lighting as a hobby, especially if your a light builder.

I ran Radion gen 4 for a few years, i would consider that high quality. I had mild success i suppose. I just recently switched to T5 and then now to T5/MH. Im just exploring the hobby. I would go back to led if i felt it was necessary. Soo far i can see advantages and disadvantages to each type of lighting. This MH light is pretty unique though, one month with it and im pretty sold on its ability.
Each type is unique.. Even the difference between 6500 k and the Fake 20000k bulbs.. ;)

Let me guess you dimmed the Radions a lot, so wasted 25% of their par and now currently upped the wattage by quite a bit..

Sound right?

Oh and possibly played spectrum hunt a few times disrupting continuity.

Sorry just for clarity and what I see is a major fallacy for most.
AGAIN something I see a lot not you specific.

MH's work great so do good and well executed LED's from what I heard :)

Historically intensity was THE key. After that then the fine points of spectrum kicked in.
And the endless debates started challenging old w/ new.. for ever.
 

A. grandis

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Your intensity theory of excuse didn't work either for me nor Dr. Sanjay Joshi (see post #542). I used the same wattage and spend basically the same electricity trying LEDs here and there was absolutely no comparison after results. Watt for watt is what we need to understand, yes, but the QUALITIES of LEDs aren't the same as halides an T5s. Dr. Sanjay is actually using more wattage with LEDs and his corals lost pigmentation and have dead spots under and above his colonies. What do you have to say about that, Oreo? He is the "guru". Dr. Sanjay always grew corals like no one in this hobby. I can tell he is having a hard time to keep his colonies as they were before.
 

oreo5457

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He never had a reef tank in his life as far as I know.
So what high quality LED have you run for any length of time?
Just curious.
What were your par readings?
Your intensity theory of excuse didn't work either for me nor Dr. Sanjay Joshi (see post #542). I used the same wattage and spend basically the same electricity trying LEDs here and there was absolutely no comparison after results. Watt for watt is what we need to understand, yes, but the QUALITIES of LEDs aren't the same as halides an T5s. Dr. Sanjay is actually using more wattage with LEDs and his corals lost pigmentation and have dead spots under and above his colonies. What do you have to say about that, Oreo? He is the "guru". Dr. Sanjay always grew corals like no one in this hobby. I can tell he is having a hard time to keep his colonies as they were before.
Electricity has nothing to do w/ it.
Lots of dead spots in the NATURAL ocean.. right
Horrible colors and dull spectrums as well..

See another thing "as they were before " you assume something that is dynamic is static.. It isn't
Sanjay has something to say he should say it.. Not second hand subject to personal interpretation.
 

A. grandis

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So what high quality LED have you run for any length of time?
Just curious.
What were your par readings?

Electricity has nothing to do w/ it.
Lots of dead spots in the NATURAL ocean.. right
Looking at any of my friends' tanks with so many types of LEDs, I would never spend my precious money on the so called "high end" LEDs. Try look at post number 544. If you think those corals are growing with good colony formation and that clam is healthy either you need glasses or you have absolutely no experiences with reef tanks.

You were tanking about watts. The electricity bill is paid by wattage.

You come here just to mess with us and take the joy of this thread.
Many have quit coming here because of the non sense stuff you post.
 

oreo5457

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Looking into any of my friends' tanks with so many types of LEDs, I would never spend my pecious money on the so called "high end" LEDs. Try look at post number 544. If you think those corals are growing with good colony formation and that clam is healthy either you need glasses or you have absolutely no experiences with reef tanks.
Maybe you could do better...no confidence?
so you never used LEDs..So no personal experience.

Hey you are happy with hat you have.. more power to you.
Let others think about it.
 

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Each type is unique.. Even the difference between 6500 k and the Fake 20000k bulbs.. ;)

Let me guess you dimmed the Radions a lot, so wasted 25% of their par and now currently upped the wattage by quite a bit..

Sound right?

Oh and possibly played spectrum hunt a few times disrupting continuity.

Sorry just for clarity and what I see is a major fallacy for most.
AGAIN something I see a lot not you specific.

MH's work great so do good and well executed LED's from what I heard :)

Historically intensity was THE key. After that then the fine points of spectrum kicked in.
And the endless debates started challenging old w/ new.. for ever.
I agree each has its place in the reefing world. When i set up my Radion i was advised, like most to run it on the AB+ SPS settings so i went with that and never strayed as that was proven. I did however have a difficult time dialing in intensity. It seemed like i could never get it to the overall intensity i wanted without having set backs. Now there can be many reasons for this but i suspect it was due to me creating a “hot spot” because my light was a bit too close to the water. I was using the Ecotech RMS mount so i figured it was ideal but now im realizing that my tank was shallow and it probably would have been better a few inches higher up. The real issue was that any of the people local who ran Radions said they used more whites throughout the day but i just couldn't get on board with that idea even though they were growing really nice tanks. Fast forward to my new tank and realizing i needed another Radion to get the proper coverage i decided to make a leap to T5 as i had always been interested in them. Well now i see why others were using more whites. Its way better than that all blue look and the coral seemed to like it too. So why did i switch to MH? Well i figured if i like T5 as much as i did i would probably really like MH, and sure enough i was right. Its really nice. Tank is a bit in shock over it at the moment but thats my fault. I changed the photoperiod way too fast. It will be ok though because this tank is not going anywhere for 3 years. Ill scrub my rocks clean if i need to. I killed a lot of my established coralline and that is never good, leaves plenty of space for unwanted algae to grow. But new coralline is beginning to grow in places in the tank that it had never before. Im really excited for things to stabilize so i can go buy any acros i want and grow full colonies without a problem! Thats really what im after here, fast growth. I need a reason to drop 5k on a bigger tank...
 

A. grandis

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Maybe you could do better...no confidence?
so you never used LEDs..So no personal experience.

Hey you are happy with hat you have.. more power to you.
Let others think about it.
You know I've tried Chinese black boxes, man.
They were the only LEDs I could try after observing all my friend's tanks. Chinese black boxes gives the best results IMO.
The worse report and observations were under Radions!! My LFS told me the worse investment in the history of the store was to get Radions!! And people still buy those pucks as they are the best thing in the world. If they were they wouldn't need T5s to back them up!!!!! What a waste of money and time!
I didn't loose absolutely anything to my black boxes, but the results were terrible after months, in comparison to T5s. I put my T5s back and everything flourished again. There is no comparison!
Can't you understand that the only thing that matters is hands on and results? You keep bringing weird posts with your internet research, but you don't take anyone's word for what is actually valid in real life.
You basically ignore about what Dr. Sanjay experiences and anyone else here has to say with a valid experience. Still come to bother with graphics and non sense stuff.
 

oreo5457

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I agree each has its place in the reefing world. When i set up my Radion i was advised, like most to run it on the AB+ SPS settings so i went with that and never strayed as that was proven. I did however have a difficult time dialing in intensity. It seemed like i could never get it to the overall intensity i wanted without having set backs. Now there can be many reasons for this but i suspect it was due to me creating a “hot spot” because my light was a bit too close to the water. I was using the Ecotech RMS mount so i figured it was ideal but now im realizing that my tank was shallow and it probably would have been better a few inches higher up. The real issue was that any of the people local who ran Radions said they used more whites throughout the day but i just couldn't get on board with that idea even though they were growing really nice tanks. Fast forward to my new tank and realizing i needed another Radion to get the proper coverage i decided to make a leap to T5 as i had always been interested in them. Well now i see why others were using more whites. Its way better than that all blue look and the coral seemed to like it too. So why did i switch to MH? Well i figured if i like T5 as much as i did i would probably really like MH, and sure enough i was right. Its really nice. Tank is a bit in shock over it at the moment but thats my fault. I changed the photoperiod way too fast. It will be ok though because this tank is not going anywhere for 3 years. Ill scrub my rocks clean if i need to. I killed a lot of my established coralline and that is never good, leaves plenty of space for unwanted algae to grow. But new coralline is beginning to grow in places in the tank that it had never before. Im really excited for things to stabilize so i can go buy any acros i want and grow full colonies without a problem! Thats really what im after here, fast growth. I need a reason to drop 5k on a bigger tank...
You made the right choice.. MH's are err "easy" but please note your err "errors"
I'd have chosen them for you as well. ;)
I'm not too dogmatic. Preferring to make suggestions (FW) that match the personality and goals (needs/wants) and skill set of the user always trying to stay within the known science (lot of unknowns btw)
12r old article for FUN, all MH:

any of the people local who ran Radions said they used more whites throughout the day but i just couldn't get on board with that idea even though they were growing really nice tanks.
I did however have a difficult time dialing in intensity. It seemed like i could never get it to the overall intensity i wanted without having set backs
Really appreciate your honesty here btw. It's kinda rare.
Note though that few had to do w/ the LED proper, just application.

And look is as important as growth as far as I'm concerned.

BRS is THE leader of finally telling people how to use their toys.
 

oreo5457

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You know I've tried Chinese black boxes, man.
They were the only LEDs I could try after observing all my friend's tanks. Chinese black boxes gives the best results IMO.
The worse report and observations were under Radions!! My LFS told me the worse investment in the history of the store was to get Radions!! And people still buy those pucks as they are the best thing in the world. If they were they wouldn't need T5s to back them up!!!!! What a waste of money and time!
I didn't loose absolutely anything to my black boxes, but the results were terrible after months, in comparison to T5s. I put my T5s back and everything flourished again. There is no comparison!
Can't you understand that the only thing that matters is hands on and results? You keep bringing weird posts with your internet research, but you don't take anyone's word for what is actually valid in real life.
You basically ignore about what Dr. Sanjay experiences and anyone else here has to say with a valid experience. Still come to bother with graphics and non sense stuff.
I don't ignore anyone. Maybe I should.
YOUR data set is small really.

Describe terrible..

Give me Sanjays direct quotes please..

Chinese black boxes are horribly inefficient.

People back up MH's w/ t5's.. Pretty common or so I've heard.
 
Orphek OR3 reef aquarium LED lighting

Do you think that live rock is more beneficial in sump than it is in the main display tank?

  • In the sump

    Votes: 37 11.7%
  • In the display

    Votes: 129 41.0%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 49 15.6%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 100 31.7%
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