Metal Halides are the bomb

[A. grandis]

I agree with much of that. Too much credit is given by brand new hobbyists to anyone with a YouTube account. Most of the types I’m talking about blaze their own trails. Yes many use leds, not all, but they certainly aren’t doing it as a fashion statement. Some didn’t even make mention of it in their build threads when switching over. I think the biggest problem bloating the led market is the software obsession. But, we as a consumer society are gadget obsessed. The same people who swap lights every new generation also swap powerheads, and cell phones, and televisions, ect

Yes, that's it! And the LED trend is just a ramification of what's going on in life, unfortunately! That is indeed what we see right now, my friend!
The only problem here is that we are dealing with living organisms and they should be treated better than in most cases. Some times it seems they have the animals for display only. That is very sad. It's a total artificial way to have them surviving, generally speaking.

 

[rtparty]

Generational amnesia is alive and well within the hobby right now. Many hobbyists are finding "new" techniques that aren't new at all.

Things are being discussed on many YT channels that we already knew 15-20 years ago.

 

[A. grandis]

Generational amnesia is alive and well within the hobby right now. Many hobbyists are finding "new" techniques that aren't new at all.

Things are being discussed on many YT channels that we already knew 15-20 years ago.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one thinking like that! It makes me sick of my stomach!
The worse thing is that some of them are actually manipulating the info as they smile!

 

[JCOLE]

Not debating lighting here, because despite not presently using them, still a big MH fan and genuinely hope they remain available. But I don’t know that in practice that many people still cling to the old school guys as their reference, even the acro obsessed. I’m not downplaying anything any of the pioneers have done. They’re far better than me at this hobby, I just know enough people in my local reef clubs that grow bigger and more colorful colonies of sps at what I would consider a nuisance rate under every lighting tech. Most of them focus more on stability and nailing down their water than obsessing over lighting or worshipping the old-school guys. They’re writing their own chapters.

Just saying yes the classics deserve a degree of reverence, but I think a lot of talent is out there performing at every bit as high of a level, through greater understanding of husbandry than was present in the 1990’s

I completely agree. However, my 2001 Silverado would say otherwise if it could meet my 2015 Silverado today. My 2015 while a lot shinier, newer, tons of bells and whistles, etc still continues to give me issues daily. My 2001 Silverado was simple and it never gave me a single issue.

Sometimes, just sometimes, the old school sneaks its way back in and puts the new school to shame. Just saying, that because it is older technology, doesn't mean that it is still not the best at what it does. Which is to grow corals like no other. Comparing LED's to Metal Halides is a little unfair because they are completely different. If someone is one of those blacklight reefers then Halides will not be your thing at all. Those reefers could also make an argument that Halides are not the best because they cannot change spectrums, increase/decrease intensities, etc. All make good points. However, when going for those things then you are looking for bells and whistles over what it should really do for the corals. Again, it's hard to compare the two because they both are completely different lights, but one thing is certain, and that is Halides still and will continue to be the best growing light out there for most light demanding corals.

 

[TaylorPilot]

I'm so glad I'm not the only one thinking like that! It makes me sick of my stomach!
The worse thing is that some of them are actually manipulating the info as they smile!

My favorite is the skimmers. They all switched to needle wheel and began pushing more and more airflow through them because that was the metric that they were all using to see who had the best equipment. In order to do that they had to make the necks huge. Now they are shrinking the size of the necks and decreasing the amount of air flowing through them by using over sized DC pumps (that have more thing to break) and turning them down. It is pretty crazy...

 

[Bpb]

I completely agree. However, my 2001 Silverado would say otherwise if it could meet my 2015 Silverado today. My 2015 while a lot shinier, newer, tons of bells and whistles, etc still continues to give me issues daily. My 2001 Silverado was simple and it never gave me a single issue.

Out of my element there, brother! I’ve always been a “give me the cheapest thing on the lot, I’ll bring it back for necessary maintenance and will drive it into the ground.” Type of person. Grew up dirt poor, and some tendencies just never went away. I believe it though. Simpler vehicle, less things to go wrong

 

[JCOLE]

Out of my element there, brother! I’ve always been a “give me the cheapest thing on the lot, I’ll bring it back for necessary maintenance and will drive it into the ground.” Type of person. Grew up dirt poor, and some tendencies just never went away. I believe it though. Simpler vehicle, less things to go wrong

Yes sir!! Turn it on, make sure the brakes and AC work then it's good to go.

 

[X-37B]

Not debating lighting here, because despite not presently using them, still a big MH fan and genuinely hope they remain available. But I don’t know that in practice that many people still cling to the old school guys as their reference, even the acro obsessed. I’m not downplaying anything any of the pioneers have done. They’re far better than me at this hobby, I just know enough people in my local reef clubs that grow bigger and more colorful colonies of sps at what I would consider a nuisance rate under every lighting tech. Most of them focus more on stability and nailing down their water than obsessing over lighting or worshipping the old-school guys. They’re writing their own chapters.

Just saying yes the classics deserve a degree of reverence, but I think a lot of talent is out there performing at every bit as high of a level, through greater understanding of husbandry than was present in the 1990’s

This is exactly what I see from fellow reefers.
Most run the current leds with results that are equal, imo, to halides.
They can, and do, grow anything in their systems. Most focus on high end acros.

Their is so much more to this hobby than lighting, again imo.
From my, halide perspective, if more people understood the husbandry/biology/chemistry part of the hobby they would be much more successful and stay in the hobby longer, regardless of what lights are above their systems.

 

[jda]

If you look hard enough, you can/will see some things that are not present as much under certain kinds of lights or water parameters. I am not talking about complete absence, just a lesser amount of success with some things. Show me the most bad butt LED kit SPS reefs and I will show you a lack of some types of corals that thrive under other lights. ...some of this is also the paradigm of keeping residual building blocks too high, so hard to get down to just one thing. Many saw this which is why T5s were added in large numbers. This mostly does not matter since there are other things that work plenty fine.

The two best LED systems that I have seen run them at 100% on all channels and the other has a few T5s but still struggles with some smoothies and other harder to keep old school stuff (he stopped asking me for Purple Monster and he killed a few).

 

[jda]

I guess that want I am saying is that some folks with really nice LED tanks come to my house and say "I wish that I could keep that one." While it is never 100% lighting, why not get lighting 100% right and start with a cheat code? Of course, generalizations here, but based in a lot of experience...

 

[oreo54]

I guess that want I am saying is that some folks with really nice LED tanks come to my house and say "I wish that I could keep that one." While it is never 100% lighting, why not get lighting 100% right and start with a cheat code? Of course, generalizations here, but based in a lot of experience...

Right, even with halides they would not be guaranteed to grow " that one".

So for the sake if honesty, there was never "a" coral you couldn't grow? Maybe I should up that to thrive not just exist.

Were they instantly successful or did it take multiple attempts?

How much does it matter that " possibly" 10-1% of species may be problematic under leds?

Every tank is different.
For species collectors, biotype types , or for bragging rights things like this do matter.
For others, not so much.

To keep it simple lets avoid things like growth form, color, ect
YES those are important but first things first.

 

[jda]

This goes beyond outliers that you are trying to describe. This is just me and anecdotal, but I would guess that 25% of what would world old school fails in 95% of newer style tanks. The smart ones know this and just avoid those since there are plenty of others that are awesome. Some want to keep those.

Yes, lighting, parameters and consistency all matter, but not on the same level. I see it a lot like getting healthy in this false equivalency, but consistent diet and exercise is important, but diet is way more important where you cannot exercise your way to super health with a middling/crap diet, but it does help. You can diet your way to better blood pressure, weight, etc with middling/crappy exercise.

BTW - have you actually gotten a tank to participate in the hobby beyond reading and link posting? I need to know if I should care about your opinions... it has been a while since I asked.

 

[oreo54]

Nope still specializing in freshwater lighting.
Thanks for asking though

This is just me and anecdotal

Understood...
If U dud ever I'd start w/ something like this. You know work around knowns.
It's extreme and needs a bit more blue spread than the viosys and blue in the cobs. Actually need to shift violet to 405mn
From my "research"

My hobby...

 

[A. grandis]

Sorry for my stupid accent!
I was also very nervous and forgot most of the stuff I wanted to talk about, like PAR for example. LOL!!!
Love you all!

 

[djf91]

I just read the UK is banning all sales of Halogen bulbs by the end of September. Anything to be worried about? Specifically related to Radiums? If so, I might stock up

 

[Bpb]

I just read the UK is banning all sales of Halogen bulbs by the end of September. Anything to be worried about? Specifically related to Radiums? If so, I might stock up

Haven’t read in it, but check the fine print. May just apply to general purpose lighting. Not specialty lighting….though that begs the question if companies cannot produce general purpose lighting, the economies of scale may not work in their favor to continue with specialty bulbs.

Just speculation. Not fanning the flames

 

[oreo54]

Haven’t read in it, but check the fine print. May just apply to general purpose lighting. Not specialty lighting….though that begs the question if companies cannot produce general purpose lighting, the economies of scale may not work in their favor to continue with specialty bulbs.

Just speculation. Not fanning the flames

MH's aren't really "Halogen" but no the ban is all inclusive AFAICT.
tubes may go before MH's.
More info..

A ban on fluorescent lighting, which is mostly used in offices, will follow in September 2023.

“Using energy-efficient LED equivalents for halogen and fluorescent lighting on an even broader scale will significantly help the UK on its journey to decarbonisation, as well as lowering the annual electricity bills for consumers.

ONE Key to all these decisions seems to be IF the tech can be replaced in the market.
Once that threshold is reached THEN one can talk about phasing them out, specialty or not.

 

[piranhaman00]

I personally think it would be safe to say that MH and T5 bulbs will be banned in the future. How long? Idk but it just makes sense. I run T5s.

 

[A. grandis]

I just read the UK is banning all sales of Halogen bulbs by the end of September. Anything to be worried about? Specifically related to Radiums? If so, I might stock up

I personally have recently communicated with Giesemann, ATI, Radium and Ushio about this.
The only bulbs that will fall into a possible ban will be the ones used for commercial facilities and houses. All specialized bulbs, as for horticulture and aquarium purposes will have their production unaltered.
Radium confirmed their production of both 250W and 400W lamps to remain normal with no plans to stop.

Giesemann said there will be absolutely no changes in production of their metal halides and T5 bulbs with no plans for any type of change. People are importing Spectra and Infinity fixtures because BRS decided not to have metal halide gear available on their web site anymore. BRS told me they were not selling much halides and therefore they didn't want to keep them on their shelves. I asked if that was to promote LEDs, they said no. Ha! Yes, I did ask that!

ATI also told me their T5s will be produced in their normal numbers with no plans to stop.

Hamilton is also producing their metal halide bulbs at the moment, to restock after their sales went sky high last January. They are also producing more fixtures and ballasts to supply the market. Hamilton sells not only to hobbyists, but also to public aquariums. They will keep the Bimini and the Cebu fixtures discontinued for now. I suggested for a redesigned metal halide/T5 fixture to substitute the Cebu, similar to Giesemann Spectra. I hope they would consider and be able to accomplish that. If there is enough demand they will probably produce those fixtures. They would have to actually know if we would like to have such fixture and the numbers should be high enough for the investment in the production. The only for that to happen is if the public would communicating with them for that demand, I guess!

I also talked to Tullio, from ReefBrite, and they will also keep their production at 100%. Tullio said their sales of metal halide gear also went up and they are selling lots of fixtures, ballasts and bulbs around the globe. They supply a great number of metal halide equipment to public aquariums as well, specially now that most of those public aquariums that have tried LEDs are going back to halides due to their unpublished researches and experiments with LEDs. I wish they would publish those!!!! Tullio said that metal halides will remain unbeatable as they are the best artificial light that resembles natural sunlight in many ways, specially spectrum wise.

I've spend a long time on the phone with Ushio and the only way to bring back their normal metal halide production, specially the "untouchable" 250W 14K, is if they can attest a real worldwide demand of their bulbs. They said they know that the demand for public aquariums is high, but they want to have the market back and will do so only if they see their competitors selling metal halides as they were before.
There is a possibility for special order though, and that order should exceed certain minimum number of bulbs (undefined at the moment). They said if the people aren't buying their current stock of 10Ks and 20K 250W halides, that demand isn't enough. They do have 175W 14K SE and most of their other halide bulbs in stock.

We still have the LED market suffocating the MH and T5 market with their market strategies using propaganda (fake marketing) in an aggressive way like never before. Lies and distractions, as well as personal opinions from manufacturers and consumers, have been driven the market towards them every second. They are desperate to eliminate halides from the market at once! Priorities in this hobby have been dictated by some of the most influential people we know, used by those LED companies to spread ideologies, practical comfort and aesthetics in fashion and design are their main priorities. While what we need to provide to the organisms we keep is mainly and simply quality of light. Money has been spoken louder than actual quality IMO. They know that if 20% of the hobbyists approve halides as the primary light for their corals, the probability of that number to explode is huge, so they want to keep it very low!

On top of that, we have most, if not all, METAL HALIDE PRODUCERS in a very PASSIVE MODE, specially in terms of ADVERTISEMENT! LEDs sell mainly because of their aggressive advertisement on social media, period!!!!! I think online stores, like BRS, appreciate that very much and also do their advertisement, and will also continue to appreciate the high sale$$ of a high valued one time purchase with annual upgrades! Besides that, LED companies are sponsoring people, Youtube channels, etc... They are very good at their marketing.

People coming to the hobby today will hear most likely about LEDs and it's "wonderful abilities" of control and apps with their promotion of blue reflective qualities. Stores and authors are the main channel for such fashion and it came to the point that will be very hard to educate the public and bring back the real qualities of this wonderful hobby back. Things change, I get it. Too bad they are changing to be so superfluous in regards to lighting and at this rhythm.

There are not enough voices in the desert to claim the truth at the moment.
And some times when we do, those lines on the sand are blown by the strong and powerful of monetary wind.

All we need to teach this new generation that the lies spread about MH and T5s are not supposed to continue. It's becoming a war because of the fight to defeat MH from the market. LEDs are trying very hard for so many years. Although they conquered some good significant territory, they will never be able substitute it's real qualities. That's why halides remain King.

 

[djf91]

Awesome, thanks for the info. I agree with your other sentiments as well.