MH hybrid

[Yanir34]

Hello , yesterday I installed my new hybrid lightning :
2 × 400w MH , with Lumatek dimmable electronic ballast (2 units) + 6 T5 bulbs (24w).

I have 2 types of bulbs : radium 400w , hamilton 400w 14,000k.

I turn on the Radium's , they should be deep blue , that is what the manufacture said...but they actually crisp white with little blue.

I don't know what color will be with the 14k.

I Also checked par levels , and the results little be weird: 350 par at the top of the rocks.
Maybe the par is decreased because that is the Radium bulb ?

 

[mtraylor]

The radium bulb gives off a very nice bluish spectrum. It's not deep blue and don't expect to see any huge flourscent like led or what you get from t5. Your supplement gives you that pop. So use the appropriate t5 bulb for that.

How big is aquarium? How high is fixture over water? Is the dimmable Ballast on 100%? What PAR meter did you use?

 

[mtraylor]

Post FTS

 

[Enderg60]

Radiums should be listed as 20k, Ive never seen a 14k one. But they are actually closer to 14k color. Its the only bulb Ive used for 15 years. I overdrive them a bit so they are a little whiter than usual and supplement is LEDs(and before that T5's) to get that good blue color pop and even out the lighting a bit.

Halides have drawbacks but there is no better way to light a reef.

 

[t5Nitro]

I run 400 watt radium 20K. Agree they look more like a 14K Phoenix bulb if you're coming back from LEDs. LED is extremo. The radium is a very nice bulb.

 

[Yanir34]

I installed today the 14k bulbs.....and WoooooooW the color ,shimmer ,brightness is amazing !
Tomorrow I will do PAR measurements and update everyone

 

[Steven Garland]

Also letting your mh bulbs break in may help as well. But unless its a 20k,supplementing yo get that good pop from everything will more than likely need to be implemented.

I still feel that MH/t5 combo is literally the best combo ever created for reef tanks. Its simply hard to beat the color and growth from them.

 

[Yanir34]

What is time period of break in of the bulbs ?

 

[rtparty]

You can't accurately test PAR until the bulbs have 100 hours on them

 

[Yanir34]

got you, thanks !

 

[djf91]

400 watt 20k radium’s over here too, love em! I’m about due for a bulb change.

Do you have an FTS?

 

[A. grandis]

The truth is that all the "K numbers" on bulbs aren't to accurately determinate a visual "color" per say. They can be only used to point the brand/K of each bulb as a reference in a conversation, if the people involved talking about them did actually use those bulbs. In other words, a Ushio 14K isn't at all the same as the Phoenix 14K, for example. They look very different.
The bottom line is that you will have the tendency to like a particular visual for your aquarium and the best way is to try couple bulbs, or at least see them in use. They will all work amazingly, if they are within the 10K-20K range! Halides are halides!
The Ushio 14K will have a higher PAR reading than the Radium because it's a "whiter" bulb and that is how the sensor reads.
The Radium will be more forgiven to use than the Ushio 14K IMHO. I love both!
You will need some time to get used to the bulb, say a day or 2, then you will see the beauty coming out of the tank and get your eyes use to the "color".
Choose the one you like and leave it alone. The corals will adapt to the spectrum and grow ferociously!
Cheers!

 

[oreo54]

The Ushio 14K will have a higher PAR reading than the Radium because it's a "whiter" bulb and that is how the sensor reads.

That is not true.. for a quality sensor.
There is very little "not measured" photosynthetically active radiation w/ a Radium 20000K.
Some errors would also effect both the Radium and any other mh..
Mercury lamp native uv peak is in both. Some would be converted to "blue".
Note this is an "older" lamp and as far as the whispers go it has been reformulated a bit.
Idea will still hold.

Product Review: Spectral Analysis of 250W Mogul base Metal Halide Lamps – PART II

This article presents the data on the remaining nine 250W mogul base lamps along with the comparison of all the 250W mogul lamps.

reefs.com

Spectral Analysis Of 400w Lamps: XM, Radium, Osram And Sunmaster, PFO

Sanjay and Tim update our readers on the spectral output of these bulbs along with thoughts on each.

reefs.com

 

[A. grandis]

The sensor will read a higher PAR from Ushio 14K in comparison to Radium 20K. That is all that I meant! I don't dig the internet nor try to prove anything about PAR sensors and their differences. The fact is that generally speaking the sensors will normally register higher PAR for whiter bulbs, than bluer bulbs. Simple as that.
PAR does not say all about light quality.
PAR measurement alone isn't the most important aspect of any lighting too.
I didn't mention any "errors".
I didn't mention anything about UV peaks.
Nothing about any type of conversions, nor spectral analysis.
You know much more about what's out on the internet than I do, but I know a little about reef tanks.
Doesn't matter what PAR readings he gets from those bulbs at any distance and with any sensor, cause either Radium or Ushio will give superb results. That is what counts in real life.

 

[oreo54]

The fact is that generally speaking the sensors will normally register higher PAR for whiter bulbs, than bluer bulbs. Simple as that.

Well...one needs to be careful about generalizations or implications either assumed or implied from certain statements.
To show you I'm not picking on mh's Kessil tried to do this "par meters don't work with Kessils" bs.

If blue bulbs have less par it's because they have less par.
It is not

and that is how the sensor reads.

with some exceptions for older Apogees and the Seneye.

That par number is also influenced by ballast brand/type

https://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/sj/index.php

For fun just because it is referenced in the above article.

Underwater Light Field and its Comparison to Metal Halide Lighting

This article presents some data on the underwater light field on a reef and compares it to the artificial light field over our reef aquaria, along with discussion of other features of natural lighting that are often not simulated in our aquariums.

reefs.com

We know from experience that we can grow coral under all the 3 major classes of metal halide lamps 6500K, 10000K and 20000K, so the corals must either adapt to the spectrum or ignore the spectral quality. Unfortunately I do not have any definitive answers to this, hopefully further research will be able to provide more definitive answers.

 

[A. grandis]

Can you give me an example of using any MH bulbs or even a LED fixtures to compare that will show higher PAR on the blue, using the very same PAR sensor, meter and bulb of same wattage/ballast, lenses, reflectors, measured at the same distance?

 

[oreo54]

Aqualine 400 W 10000 K​

Standard M59 ballast, 94.7 ppfd, 6616K

Ushio 400w Blue​

Standard M59 ballast, 109.9 ppfd, off chart k,

Ushio 400w 10000k​

Standard M59 ballast 123.7ppfd, 7650k
13.8 par difference ..ohhhhh...
11% difference. Statistical error..
I'd call it even.

Change in ballasts can change ppfd that much or close (6-8%)
Or more.

20,000K Osram/Radium Lamps

For this lamp, as shown in Table 4 there was more than a 20% difference in light output using the PFO and Blueline ballast.

Spectral Analysis of MH Lamps:

I'll assume Sanjay kept distanced ect the same..

Spectral Analysis Of Recent Metal Halide Lamps And Ballast Combinations

Included in this article are results from our testing of several of the new lamps and ballasts.

reefs.com

Ppfd depends on bulb/ballast/core temp not "color".

At least as I see it.

6400k Iwasaki had huge ppfd difference due to drive current levels and a design that could take it.
463 watts vs 410 on magnetics.

There may be losses due to heavier blue emitting salts but in general should be minor "if" everything else is equal.
History:

Conclusion
As new lamps and ballasts are being brought into the hobby, it has become increasingly difficult for hobbyists to keep up and know enough about these lamps and ballasts to make an educated choice.

That problem solved.. sorry couldn't resist ...

 

[Smite]

I installed today the 14k bulbs.....and WoooooooW the color ,shimmer ,brightness is amazing !
Tomorrow I will do PAR measurements and update everyone

Thats my favorite bulb, 14k Hamiltons but I was running 250w. Crisp and you still get all the color popping out. The fish look amazing too, very hard to beat IMO. Radiums are a very close second. If yours looked super white, I'd check the stamp on the lamp to make sure it is a 400w and not a 250w. Sounds like it's over driven some how.

 

[A. grandis]

The visual comparison needs to follow the actual "color" (yes, temp) we see emitted by the bulbs. And that was what I said. As I've posted many times before, the label on the boxes of the bulbs are more like a "brand reference" than anything else. If you never saw the bulb ON and look at labels only you missed it. We are talking about practical visual appearance (whiter or bluer to the eyes), not label numbers.
You can get lots of bulbs looking at their boxes and think they are whiter just because of the "10K" or "15K" numbers on the box. Not always the case.
The spectrum graphics above show the actual differences of the bulbs and why they have those PPFD numbers.
That Aqualine 10K is actually a bluer bulb than the Ushio 10K (please refer to the spectrum chart showing "more blue and less white").
You have forgotten to add the most important info here: the blue light actually has more energy than the white light. White light has the diversity of spectrum (richness) to offer to corals and to have the best out of it though. There are too many things to follow and we can surely put those as out of the scope here. Once more you took a simple act of expression and practical finding to discuss something unnecessary, or out of focus. Nonetheless interesting to some.

 

[oreo54]

Energy levels of an ind photon are mostly irrelevant.

Yes one needs to see ppfd not watts or joules on the axis or it is misleading.
There are more photons in 1 watt of red light than 1 w of blue light.

How to convert..

How to Figure the Energy of One Mole of a Photon

To find the energy of a photon, multiply Planck's constant by the speed of light, then divide by the photon's wavelength. For a mole of photons, multiply the result by Avogadro's number.

sciencing.com

Quantum meters count photons. Photosynthesis uses photons.

You have forgotten to add the most important info here: the blue light actually has more energy than the white light

I didn't forget, it is irrelevant to ppfd.

The best comparison is the Ushio pair. With 11% difference between " blue" and less blue bulb (as determined by Kelvin measurements) since it is the same manufacture and likely all core components are the same except salt content.

Granted, and in your favor generally as built and run "whiter" bulbs may score higher.
What causes this is not the Quantum meter or not the whiteness of the bulb just the overall "system".

Some " white" bulbs, as shown above can differ 20+ percent in photon output base on ballast alone.

Again, my main point was

The Ushio 14K will have a higher PAR reading than the Radium because it's a "whiter" bulb and that is how the sensor reads.

isn't quite right afaict, sorry.

Each color needs to be tested on it's merits ( full system check) not a blanket statement as to white ect though it mostly does apply with the current limited set of bulbs and ballasts.

Won't even go into the belief in PUR over
PAR rendering some " white" par less effective than " blue" par making the higher par white mh's less effective than the lower par blue mh's....
In other words white may have more par but equal or less out than a blue bulb.

Messy huh .