Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[cb684]

Now for the second part:
What parameters would be interesting to be collected so we can try to have a meaningful interpretation?

I was thinking to measure:
pH: before and after bubbling
NO3:0, 1, 2, 4, 7, 14 days
PO4: 0, 1, 2, 4, 7, 14 days
Pictures of areas with cyano: 0, 1, 2, 4, 7, 14 days
Pictures of corals??
Anything else? ALK, Ca??

I'm not sure there is going to be a way to do so easily at home. Almost any overly simple light scattering method we use (like optical density) will confound bubble size and number. Maybe optical density as a function of time in a cuvette where they rise and clear over time. But somehow one would want to compare two different values, such as 10% transmittance clearing 5% per minute vs 10% transmittance clearing 2.5% per minute. The latter likely has smaller bubbles, but does it have more bubbles?

It is not a home method, but more sophisticated light scattering is one good way. Dynamic light scattering machines, for example. Malvern makes than and I've used them, but not for bubbles.

http://www.malvern.com/en/industry-applications/sample-type-form/nanobubbles/
http://www.malvern.com/en/industry-applications/sample-type-form/nanobubbles/

So maybe comparing 5 minutes and 20 minutes then?

 

[Cruz_Arias]

I'm not sure there is going to be a way to do so easily at home. Almost any overly simple light scattering method we use (like optical density) will confound bubble size and number. Maybe optical density as a function of time in a cuvette where they rise and clear over time. But somehow one would want to compare two different values, such as 10% transmittance clearing 5% per minute vs 10% transmittance clearing 2.5% per minute. The latter likely has smaller bubbles, but does it have more bubbles?

It is not a home method, but more sophisticated light scattering is one good way. Dynamic light scattering machines, for example. Malvern makes than and I've used them, but not for bubbles.

http://www.malvern.com/en/industry-applications/sample-type-form/nanobubbles/
http://www.malvern.com/en/industry-applications/sample-type-form/nanobubbles/

Agreed, Randy... I don't even know where to start.
Bubbling is one thing... that's why I was trying to clarify the TYPE of bubble based on size in the naming of it...
It's trying to define what we were trying to accomplish without going into detail for hobbyists...

We use this tech in pharma and chemical industries... But I was not the one who invented the Optek Sensor... Optek did... I understand the principles behind the device, but I don't have all the equations. I have linearization tables they've provided based on the 4-20mA signal back...

What we were promoting is that something so simple may have been missed, and in chemistry, sometimes you have to take two steps back to make progress again.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Ok. So the patented design is available for public view. Please let us know the patent number. Thanks!

For those interested in locating a patent to see if it has been filed or built... there is Google Patent Search Engines.
https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts&gws_rd=ssl

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Now for the second part:
What parameters would be interesting to be collected so we can try to have a meaningful interpretation?

I was thinking to measure:
pH: before and after bubbling
NO3:0, 1, 2, 4, 7, 14 days
PO4: 0, 1, 2, 4, 7, 14 days
Pictures of areas with cyano: 0, 1, 2, 4, 7, 14 days
Pictures of corals??
Anything else? ALK, Ca??



So maybe comparing 5 minutes and 20 minutes then?

That would be a start...

 

[cb684]

I just purchased this for generating bubbles (the BT-50): http://nebula.wsimg.com/f261b5bf5a3...97E504A19CBAE841C&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

 

[Lowstorm]

A bit OT first:

I was participating and following this thread until this past weekend, when all the crud started to fly. I more or less have stopped reading it. I more or less left RC (fwiw, I'm Swanwillow over there) because of the behavior that started on this thread. I hate trolls, I hate people that attack others for their thoughts. There's a difference between discussing if something has validity vs being all out jerks to each other. Saying "You're wrong because I know better!" Is NOT the way to discuss any topic. Scientific facts that HAVE been presented in this thread are what will bring knowledge. TYVM

Now, back to topic:

I don't know that any of us normal ole hobbyists will beable to conduct much other than seeing is believing. As I said before, this is 'new' to many of us. We don't KNOW fully what will come of it. Time will tell. In 3 years, in 5 years, people may look back at these threads and say wow. Either it will work, or it won't. I'm starting it from the beginning of my tank, because I have faith it will. If it doesn't, well, its darn easy to pull the plug on my air stone. I didn't have to modify any of my major equipment, and I can throw the bubbler on my son's freshwater platy tank. They won't care if there's bubbles, and how big the bubbles are.

I'm MOSTLY worried about how things will react after years of 'a few hours a night' bubbling like I'm doing. I will eventually have some SPS and clams in the tank. I guess I'll find out how everything reacts as I go. So long as people aren't chased away from these discussions because of anger, or frustration over other matters we can all work together to figure it out.

 

[Squamosa]

Have a look at my thread, it may possibly give you some more clarity you seek

Just please ignore what went on there too, over the weekend...I think it is on an even keel now
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/micro-and-nano-bubble-tank-treatment.231894/page-9

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Ok, Let's try this with a different approach.

About

1. Do you guys think it is important to know size and numbers of bubbles / gallon injected?
2. If so, do you believe this would work:

Using a Hanna ALK colorimeter to measure turbidity:

To know the capacity of my bubbling system, them probably I would use something like this:

FMS: freshly mixed salt water.
M0: measurement before bubbling
M20: measurement 20 minutes after bubbling

M0 min - FMS = A1
M20 min - FMS = A2
A2 - A1 = capacity of the system to produce micro-nano bubbles. (20 minutes is a subjective number, it might need to be changed).

Maybe also a good idea to test this in a lets say 5 gallon bucket (or 40 gallon tank) filled with FMS

3. Any idea how this could be improved? (be reasonable please)

Some guys in the Reef-Box UK Group have done this already... and in Oz (Australia)

 

[cb684]

Some guys in the Reef-Box UK Group have done this already... and in Oz (Australia)

Ok, what did they found? How to find the thread with the results?

 

[reef_ranch]

I'm still trying to figure out what is being postulated as to the effect of the bubbling and whether a particular size bubble is needed to create the effect. For degassing, it seems that large bubbles probably work just as well as small bubbles and better than micro and nano bubbles which stay in solution much longer? For the skimmer effect of lifting dissolved compounds and removing them to the overflow, my guess is that skimmer sized bubbles (micro?) in a fairly dense cloud would work best? As for the more obscure effects relating to causing corals to slime (which may be beneficial?) and cleaning the sand bed and killing dinos, I'm not sure anyone has postulated what the mechanism is so its hard to guess what size bubble works. But since it seems that we are not able with our readily available equipment to create actual nano-bubbles in any significant amount (I've seen 5% and 1% thrown around but not sure whether this is guesswork or based on some valid measurement) if these effects actually do exist, then are we are likely dealing with micro-bubbles?

Thoughts? Or should I post this in squamosa's thread?

 

[Squamosa]

Ok, what did they found? How to find the thread with the results?

Not us

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Ok, everyone. I have cleaned up quite a bit of this thread (and some was already cleaned up by the time I got here). Let's keep personal attacks out of this discussion from here on out. Remember that in written communication, it's usually best to assume the best possible tone rather than the worst. Any further blatant attacks will not be allowed. Individuals who show they can't stay away from attacks will be removed from the conversation. Let's keep it positive moving forward.

Happy reefing and bubbling (or not bubbling) everyone!

 

[Squamosa]

5% and 1%

That was proposed by Diesel, he seemed to know what he was talking about, but please ask him.

we are likely dealing with micro-bubbles

Yes, to a very large extent, yes.
The whole nano sized thing is complicating things here, I think

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Ok, everyone. I have cleaned up quite a bit of this thread (and some was already cleaned up by the time I got here). Let's keep personal attacks out of this discussion from here on out. Remember that in written communication, it's usually best to assume the best possible tone rather than the worst. Any further blatant attacks will not be allowed. Individuals who show they can't stay away from attacks will be removed from the conversation. Let's keep it positive moving forward.

Happy reefing and bubbling (or not bubbling) everyone!

Thank you.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

I hope to clarify this...

Micro-NanoBubbling is a tool...
Not a product...

It was a concept born from waste water treatment, nature, and observation from freshwater to FOWLR and then ultimately reef systems.
What many people do not know is that everytime a reactor media is put in the ORP level drops... Whenever you feed your system a "dry product" the ORP takes a dip... why?

It has been shown that activated carbon can reduce dissolved oxygen levels in an aquarium especially if not rinsed and wetted.

At the wastewater treatment facilities that I've work at (Fountain Valley, CA/Clark County WWWD/Escondido WWWD etc...) EVERYTIME a new media bed was charged and switched over to, the ORP and DO took a nose dive and we lost tons of Bacteria until the DO came back up (3 to 4 hours of heavy microbubbling aeration)

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Ok, what did they found? How to find the thread with the results?

Reef-Box UK is on facebook... let me see if I can find it...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/602171776494598/

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Here's another group that uses the micro-nanobubbling method coupled with a controlled bacterial bloom to deal with Dinoflagellates and Cyano...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1105945762763724/

 

[Chibils]

I want to say thank you to @cb684, @Lowstorm, and @mdbannister our wonderful mod for trying to keep this thread under control and polite!

This thread has brought out some good info and some great reefing minds! I think also that there have been some unnecessary personal attacks here as well as some unnecessarily defensive posts. I want to see level-headed discussion of this concept, what it does, and what it doesn't do. That is how we learn and I think learning is what most of us are here for There has been some good discussion, and it was certainly the most valuable part of the thread. I would like to help out in this endeavor, but I don't have a reef tank at the moment and can do nothing but watch and speculate.

Thanks everyone for contributing, and to everyone who has said their piece.

 

[Lowstorm]

My 'end' want of doing the micro-nano bubbling is:

Clearer water and
better removal of organics
When I get corals, increased growth and PE

I already saw this in action the first time I set it up. Yes, my tank is empty, but I still feed the crap outta it so that it has a great biological filter for when I get fish and corals (Saturday, YAY!). The little bubbles seemed to attach to all the little things it could and float it, so that my overflow could nab and grab it down.

One bad thing it doesn't do (which I don't mind as much, but want to tell people anyhow) it does nothing for Diatoms (I'm having a bloom right now) and it doesn't clear up a bacterial bloom (....oops on the overdosing carbon) I don't mind it not being a magic fix. I wasn't trying it to make my tank better in those ways. The only thing that I have found that will fix my 2 problems is time. And to stop overdosing carbon, but that's a whole other topic.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So maybe comparing 5 minutes and 20 minutes then?

Might be a good place to start, then see how much it actually changes and maybe adjust if needed..

Do you have a device that can do that?