Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

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Greenstreet.1

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The things that have me worried is the small life that's in my tank like my pods good bacteria and most of all my fishes and sticks long term.
 

cb684

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Might be a good place to start, then see how much it actually changes and maybe adjust if needed..

Do you have a device that can do that?
I was planning to use one of the handheld ALK colorimeter to measure the turbidity. Fill one tube with fresh mixed salt water (FMSW), add the nozzle to a container with the FMSW, than fill a second tube at 5 minutes and later at 20 minutes, using the tube with FMSW as "blank".

Now I have another question: Should we expect the binding of molecules to those micro-nano bubbles to help to stabilize them? Would the skimmer and filter socks help to clear them out?
 

cb684

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I think from a practical standpoint, two tanks set up the same with the same inhabitants with one tank bubbling and the other not would give us some good info on growth rates, algae, cyano and more.
That would be ideal. Even more if they were sharing the same sump (at least for the scrubbing part). Hey I know somebody that have a setting like this... lol (I do), but I would not dare to do that in my main system at this point. Maybe later.

I will try to come up with a setting similar to that later. I have a few 20 gallon tanks laying around that might fit that purpose.

Thanks.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I was planning to use one of the handheld ALK colorimeter to measure the turbidity. Fill one tube with fresh mixed salt water (FMSW), add the nozzle to a container with the FMSW, than fill a second tube at 5 minutes and later at 20 minutes, using the tube with FMSW as "blank".

Now I have another question: Should we expect the binding of molecules to those micro-nano bubbles to help to stabilize them? Would the skimmer and filter socks help to clear them out?
What sort of units can you make the alk colorimeter read in? Just some sort of alk unit?

The organics will reduce the surface tension, but might make them more inclined to attach to each other and form large bubbles or aggregates of bubbles.

Yes, if there is significant organic matter on the bubbles, they can become skimmable if they merge with larger bubbles into the skimmer foam, or eventually merge onto the tank water surface.
 
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The Macro Guy

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Just waiting for someone to claim this is there idea or they made some huge break through on a negative or positive of doing this or claiming a method of testing and procedures.

It's the only reason I can think that this simple try it out tip turned into a full blown 26 page thread of "my years in reefing is bigger than yours." Crazy...

If anyone is going to experiment on this, you only need to setup 2 identical 20g tanks, one with scrubbing from day 1 and one without, and just test levels, and post pictures of tank progress weekly, but now people talking about measuring bubble size now? Lol..wow, over complicating things is why we have $2000 filter sock boxes in reefing now, smh..
 

Cruz_Arias

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Might be a good place to start, then see how much it actually changes and maybe adjust if needed..

Do you have a device that can do that?
https://staff.aist.go.jp/m.taka/nano-bubble.pdf

In this pdf it shows that they're using dynamic light scattering to determine number of "bubble refraction occurrences"

The only devices I've ever used was Optek Sensors ( http://optekinc.com )

Found the pdf that I was looking at before, @Randy, @cb684 , @Reeflogic, @CoralNerd, @Diesel
 
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The Macro Guy

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Cruz_Arias

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Funny thing is was that it was never claimed that I invented nanobubbles... it was how I would have utilized the macro, micro, and nanobubbles to be applied to address a few key deficiencies observed in the hobby...

DAF has been around in Wastewater Treatment... Aeration Basins for Bacteria...

And yeah... for some reason it is claimed by other scientists which I have constantly referred to, that the nanobubbles (for some reason) are negatively charged...
 

Cruz_Arias

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One of the Biggest Differences between microbubbles that we can see, versus nanobubbles, the flicker and refractive fleck or sparkle we occasionally see, is size... And yes... I know they spelled "difference" incorrectly...

Probability dictates if you start off with a smaller bubble to begin with (limewood airstone) then pulverize it some more, then you'll get "occurrence splitting" and "occurrence shearing" maybe, if we're lucky 5 to 10% of the total microbubbles generated.

Coupled with the head pressure in the return pipe (typically a straight run from the pump up to the return nozzles) we get a low pressure compression of the smaller gas bubbles... once again potentially creating an absorbance of the gas into the water column at that point. Thus shrinking most smaller microbubbles and converting them into the negatively (don't know why) charged nano bubbles.

Using a useless presentation laser pointer from the early 90's... we witnessed these "flecks of refraction and reflection" even after we stopped the micro/nanobubbling in the return chamber... and they persisted for days after we shut the bubbler off...



NBsMBs.png
 

The Macro Guy

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Funny thing is was that it was never claimed that I invented nanobubbles... it was how I would have utilized the macro, micro, and nanobubbles to be applied to address a few key deficiencies observed in the hobby...

DAF has been around in Wastewater Treatment... Aeration Basins for Bacteria...

And yeah... for some reason it is claimed by other scientists which I have constantly referred to, that the nanobubbles (for some reason) are negatively charged...
That somewhat explains the link between the scrubbing and the dinos and cyano since the negative charged bubbles grab the bacteria no? Or did I miss interpret the diagram.
 
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One of the Biggest Differences between microbubbles that we can see, versus nanobubbles, the flicker and refractive fleck or sparkle we occasionally see, is size... And yes... I know they spelled "difference" incorrectly...

Probability dictates if you start off with a smaller bubble to begin with (limewood airstone) then pulverize it some more, then you'll get "occurrence splitting" and "occurrence shearing" maybe, if we're lucky 5 to 10% of the total microbubbles generated.

Coupled with the head pressure in the return pipe (typically a straight run from the pump up to the return nozzles) we get a low pressure compression of the smaller gas bubbles... once again potentially creating an absorbance of the gas into the water column at that point. Thus shrinking most smaller microbubbles and converting them into the negatively (don't know why) charged nano bubbles.

Using a useless presentation laser pointer from the early 90's... we witnessed these "flecks of refraction and reflection" even after we stopped the micro/nanobubbling in the return chamber... and they persisted for days after we shut the bubbler off...



NBsMBs.png
I'm going to try this with a nano bubble generator now and see if I get even better results. Thanks for the information.
 

Cruz_Arias

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That somewhat explains the link between the scrubbing and the dinos and cyano since the negative charged bubbles grab the bacteria no? Or did I miss interpret the diagram.
Was not mentioned yet... The aeration for the dinoflagellate and cyano remediation we have done was utilizing the same principle of micro/nanobubbling aeration (keeping the oxygen levels high) as we would in an aeration basin packed full of aerobic digesting bacteria.

Controlling a bacterial bloom, allows the army of bacteria to overwhelm the dinoflagellates and the cyano in a favorable aerobic environment to our aerobic bacterial army.

This "nanobubble attraction" to organic material (living or dead) was news to me and Elegant Corals (more than just one person in the company)
All we knew is that by population crowding with the beneficial bacteria, we can out crowd the unwanted pests.

https://www.facebook.com/Elegant-Corals-LLC-1511705699091667/photos_stream

An unexpected result was observed... faster and better growth and coloration in 2001 of the orange monti cap that I received from Leng. The same original Red/orange monti cap that Vargas and Sy had, yes, using metal halides. :)
 

cb684

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Just waiting for someone to claim this is there idea or they made some huge break through on a negative or positive of doing this or claiming a method of testing and procedures.

It's the only reason I can think that this simple try it out tip turned into a full blown 26 page thread of "my years in reefing is bigger than yours." Crazy...

If anyone is going to experiment on this, you only need to setup 2 identical 20g tanks, one with scrubbing from day 1 and one without, and just test levels, and post pictures of tank progress weekly, but now people talking about measuring bubble size now? Lol..wow, over complicating things is why we have $2000 filter sock boxes in reefing now, smh..
I would agree completely with you a few days ago, until I understood de difference between a small bubble and a micro-nano bubble. It is fascinating really. For once these really small bubbles will take much longer to surface, and in some situations they don't and end up dissolved in the water (if there is enough pressure). So having those nano bubbles vs. having only small ones could make a lot of difference.

But then, maybe it won't. Then I will use the setup in my koi pond to deal with the low O2 during the summer here in Mississippi.

Anyways, we all have fun differently in this hobby, right?

Edit: Sorry, I did not have my thread refreshed, Cruz Arias already said and explained it all.
 

The Macro Guy

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I would agree completely with you a few days ago, until I understood de difference between a small bubble and a micro-nano bubble. It is fascinating really. For once these really small bubbles will take much longer to surface, and in some situations they don't and end up dissolved in the water (if there is enough pressure). So having those nano bubbles vs. having only small ones could make a lot of difference.

But then, maybe it won't. Then I will use the setup in my koi pond to deal with the low O2 during the summer here in Mississippi.

Anyways, we all have fun differently in this hobby, right?
I wonder if at some point even a nano bubble is going to end up in the sump & skimmer. Could explain the darker skimmate? Because I don't actually see bubbles from the airstone make it all the way back to the skimmer so to speak. Like visually with the naked eye.
 

cb684

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I wonder if at some point even a nano bubble is going to end up in the sump & skimmer. Could explain the darker skimmate? Because I don't actually see bubbles from the airstone make it all the way back to the skimmer so to speak. Like visually with the naked eye.
So Randy Holmes Farley answered this at post # 508.
 
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