Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Ok... I think I have this figured out...
You want us to quantify positive results from how many systems, under what conditions, and solve for what?
.

Here's where one can start: one clearly defined and measured benefit for one tank, before and during bubbling (or during then after, either order).

I've not seen seen this sort of info, but it might be available somewhere.

The benefit might be a measurement, or a tank picture, or some such thing. But something that everyone recognizes as a benefit.

 

[McMullen]

If this question has been answered by someone please forgive....this thread has exploded, "Is there better gas exchange from the bubble method vs simply breaking surface tension with a powerhead/wavemaker? Or simply having return lines at the surface level to constantly break tension?

There is certainly no disagreement that pH and CO2 are inversely related. @Lasse, referenced a saturation point or an equilibrium that is reached, so at some point you could continue to "bubble," but the effect has reached its potential......is this correct?

 

[Lasse]

I'm not... The Caps are Emphasis... LOL Sorry if you interpreted it like that... LOL :)
:)

http://netiquette.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_number_2_-_Do_not_use_all_caps
http://www.newstatesman.com/sci-tech/2014/04/how-capital-letters-became-internet-code-shouting

Sincerely Lasse

 

[McMullen]

Can everyone stop posting for a few hours. I've got to get work done and I cannot keep up with this and work...........:D

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Bubble, Don't Bubble... I was sharing something that has helped me and others in the hobby.

There are lots of things that science still cannot explain in this universe.... Technology and instrumentation still cannot tell us everything we want to know... especially when it comes to quantum mechanics, quantum physics, and other anomalies this world has...

Public aquariums still do not even know why Nautiluses cannot BREED or THRIVE in captivity.
It's not Temperature, Pressure, Water Chemistry, Lighting, or Diet. Scientists and Marinebiologists should be able to figure this one out.

If you think everything to figure out has been figured out, please think again. Science changes daily based on new observations, anomalies, findings, and testing...
So far this nanobubbling and microbubbling has piqued the interest of scholars at Stanford University and other Environmental Groups.

If the attention is achieved by these posts, then I've done my part to perpetuate thought...

Observations are Observations. They have been documented...

Positive reaction to their systems... Those instances are documented as well...
Faster frag healing and growth in our systems that we bubble versus the ones we don't... yeah but is hard to measure when my engineering career is at work and growing corals is my hobby.

ORP and DO Readings, they have been done... we are looking for long durations and more trials to satisfy the repeatability testing.
They have also already been done by these guys: (I'm sure they have more answers than I do)

http://advocate.gaalliance.org/testing-micro-nanobubble-generating-device-at-different-salinities/

 

[Cruz_Arias]

http://netiquette.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_number_2_-_Do_not_use_all_caps
http://www.newstatesman.com/sci-tech/2014/04/how-capital-letters-became-internet-code-shouting

Sincerely Lasse

Sorry... I was around when we started programming in Fortran, C and C++... Caps were use back then for emphasis and flags, not shouting.

Learn something new everyday. hm.

 

[anit77]

Just balancing out the CO2 saturation in the water (driving the excess out) wouldn't that affect pH? Yes.
And the benefits of degassing CO2 and other gases such as H2S benefit the system? I think so.

I'm fielding this as "tribal knowledge, observation of benefits" for those who want scientific proof something to look into.

For the moment, yes, anecdotal. But still effective means of nutrient transport from the DT to the sump... and effective in aeration.

I believe all of the things you said in this are quite possible and probably true with the use of the micro bubbles we can create.

I think the main issues people are having is the use of nano bubbles, how they're created and whether hobby grade tools we have can get the job done.
If you are not able to it would be helpful if someone took two 20 long tanks. Filled both up with freshly mixed plain old IO salt, no other additives. Leave one as a control and run this method on the other. Then let them sit an hour with normal circulation and point a laser through each tank. Post a video of the results. That should put this part of it to bed.

If successful then we can discuss the best implementation and positives & negatives of running such a system from the "Nano" stand point.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

For any of those Looking for the videos and pictures, photos, original discussions, it's on the Elegant Corals, LLC. page.

Thanks.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

I believe all of the things you said in this are quite possible and probably true with the use of the micro bubbles we can create.

I think the main issues people are having is the use of nano bubbles, how they're created and whether hobby grade tools we have can get the job done.
If you are not able to it would be helpful if someone took two 20 long tanks. Filled both up with freshly mixed plain old IO salt, no other additives. Leave one as a control and run this method on the other. Then let them sit an hour with normal circulation and point a laser through each tank. Post a video of the results. That should put this part of it to bed.

If successful then we can discuss the best implementation and positives & negatives of running such a system from the "Nano" stand point.

Correct and Agreed... Here's a video that shows how they determined that they had "presence" of nanobubbles in the water... remember, micros, if produced small enough can shrink down to nanosize...

 

[Cruz_Arias]

This was a high definition photo by Joel Coleman... http://www.joelcoleman.com/shop/med...136e95/s/a/saltmotion_img_9189_2014_03_05.jpg
As you zoom in, you can see (just from pouring saltwater into saltwater) you get varying sizes of bubbles.
The smallest ones (they appear like white dots) are the size we have been seeing (along with possible detritus, bacteria, etc)
Probability dictates that if it can happen (under little to no pressure other than atmospheric) then under the correct conditions, the very fine bubble generation is highly probable.

 

[Lasse]

There is certainly no disagreement that pH and CO2 are inversely related. @Lasse, referenced a saturation point or an equilibrium that is reached, so at some point you could continue to "bubble," but the effect has reached its potential......is this correct?

I have difficulties to explain this in my own language , trying to explain it in English will be a challenge :)

No I do not think that they are are inversely related according to saturated point in water. But they show the same mechanism of equilibrium between water and air. How fast the equilibrium will be reached depends of the area of the interface between air and water and “concentration” difference.

If you have a saturation of either of this gases below 100 % (in the water) according to the actual gas (in this case oxygen or carbon dioxide) content in the air – enlargement of the interface area between air and water (through bubbling or movement of the water surface) will speed up the setting time to the equilibrium. When equilibrium is reached – nothing more happens. But because you in a tank have production/consumption of both this gases - your actual saturation can be both over and below 100 % - but the bubbling and surface movement will always try to hold it at 100 %.

According to carbon dioxide, the content in the air can vary depending on how many people that stay in the room. Carbon dioxide gas and pH are related to each other so there can bubbling and/or water surface movement both rise or lower the pH depending on which side of equilibrium between water and air you start at. Is your carbon dioxide content in the water below equilibrium between water and air - bubbling will lower the pH (carbon dioxide brings in to the water) If your starting point is higher than equilibrium – bubbling will raise your pH (carbon dioxide is transported out from the water)

The same with oxygen – if you start below equilibrium – bubbling will rise your oxygen content up to near saturation. Is the starting point over equilibrium (oxygen production through photosynthesis) – bubbling will lower your oxygen content down to the actual saturation point


I hope this make sense (but I´m not sure) :)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Intermingled with the larger microbubbles are bubbles in between the size of micro and nano...

Like medium-small or small-medium sized microbubbles... don't know what else to call it other than intermediate sized air pockets. LOL

 

[Cruz_Arias]

I have difficulties to explain this in my own language , trying to explain it in English will be a challenge :)

No I do not think that they are are inversely related according to saturated point in water. But they show the same mechanism of equilibrium between water and air. How fast the equilibrium will be reached depends of the area of the interface between air and water and “concentration” difference.

If you have a saturation of either of this gases below 100 % (in the water) according to the actual gas (in this case oxygen or carbon dioxide) content in the air – enlargement of the interface area between air and water (through bubbling or movement of the water surface) will speed up the setting time to the equilibrium. When equilibrium is reached – nothing more happens. But because you in a tank have production/consumption of both this gases - your actual saturation can be both over and below 100 % - but the bubbling and surface movement will always try to hold it at 100 %.

According to carbon dioxide, the content in the air can vary depending on how many people that stay in the room. Carbon dioxide gas and pH are related to each other so there can bubbling and/or water surface movement both rise or lower the pH depending on which side of equilibrium between water and air you start at. Is your carbon dioxide content in the water below equilibrium between water and air - bubbling will lower the pH (carbon dioxide brings in to the water) If your starting point is higher than equilibrium – bubbling will raise your pH (carbon dioxide is transported out from the water)

The same with oxygen – if you start below equilibrium – bubbling will rise your oxygen content up to near saturation. Is the starting point over equilibrium (oxygen production through photosynthesis) – bubbling will lower your oxygen content down to the actual saturation point


I hope this make sense (but I´m not sure) :)

Sincerely Lasse

Very nice... If O2 is in excess, it will be degassed... if CO2 is in excess, CO2 will be degassed... Agreed. equilibrium is hard to explain based on varying temperatures (of the water) and the varying ions in solution in the water itself in unique reef tanks at different barometric pressures, humidity, etc.

Equilibrium is a balancing act...

:) :) :) :)

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Here's where one can start: one clearly defined and measured benefit for one tank, before and during bubbling (or during then after, either order).

I've not seen seen this sort of info, but it might be available somewhere.

The benefit might be a measurement, or a tank picture, or some such thing. But something that everyone recognizes as a benefit.

Ok. do we need to first define the size of the bubbles we are generating. Don't know how to count bubbles in 3D tank dimensions... That way we could tally up percentage on average between start time and stop time...
I'll see if some of the members that are starting this method have photos of their corals before bubbling, during the bubbling (provided that nothing is being supplemented other than food), and after.

Once again, there are so many variables it's going to be tough. Not everyone has a lab setup that is in a controlled environment that's dust free, mold free, pollen free, bacteria free...
:(

Thank you though for your feedback.

 

[Thales]

Correct and Agreed... Here's a video that shows how they determined that they had "presence" of nanobubbles in the water... remember, micros, if produced small enough can shrink down to nanosize...

And in that video they also say that nano bubbles cannot be created without ceramic. The laser is great, but it doesn't at all let you determine the bubble size or indeed if what you are seeing in the beam is bubbles or something else.

 

[anit77]

Correct and Agreed... Here's a video that shows how they determined that they had "presence" of nanobubbles in the water... remember, micros, if produced small enough can shrink down to nanosize...

Yes, I've watched the video. I can see "They" believe "They" have the presence of nano bubbles with the "Carbon Ceramic" diffuser "They" produced and the equipment "They" used. There is no mention of the volume or quantity "They" are producing.

Now "We" must test whether "We" are able to even produce nano bubbles with the primitive, by comparison, wood diffuser and simple pump "We" have access to.

I know this may come across as combative but it's getting old seeing the same old info regurgitated over and over of what "Others" are doing. Especially when "They" are using highly specialized $3400.00 diffusers and equipment that "We" do not have access to. I understand if you don't have the answers to these questions and a simple "I don't know" would be suffice. I love your passion but it would be nice to see something relevant to what us hobbyists can do. But saying I've seen it done and reproducing it are two different things. I just don't see the point of arguing over what the benefits or detrimental effects of nano bubbles is if we can even define the presence of them in a fish tank using what's available to us. I don't have the time at the moment to do this test. I am willing to put my money into the kitty for someone who does have the time and ability to do it. Isn't the dollar per gallon sale going on again now? I'll buy the two 20 gallon tanks for the test.

 

[Rybren]

Like many others, I think that it would be great if nano/micro/micronano bubbles could achieve all that you (Cruz) espouse. It is a relatively simple process and it would be phenomenal if it proves to be beneficial.

However, here are my concerns. There has been much talk about using this technology in the field of waste water management. That's great, and I'm sure that it is effective in that application. That being said, how does it translate to aquariums? Unlike waste water, our aquariums are chocker-block full of living organisms that we as aquarists are trying desperately to not only keep alive, but to also thrive, grow, and breed. The concerns raised by many here on R2R and on other sites is that we really don't know what effect all of these bubbles will have on the animals in our charge.

There is talk about corals sloughing off mucus, but is that a good thing? There is talk of fish sloughing off mucus; again, is that a good thing? What about increased polyp extension? Do we know whether that is something that is beneficial for corals? Do we know whether there are any long-term negative effects to any of the livestock that is commonly kept in our marine aquariums?

My biggest problem with this entire exercise is the continual avoidance of these types of questions. Avoidance, hiding behind credentials, changing the subject, pointing to irrelevant studies, or accusing the questioner of attacking are all red flags. When there are so many red flags, I usually take it to indicate that either someone doesn't know what they are talking about or that they are hiding something, and that something is often a commercial interest. I'm not saying that this is the case here, but it is becoming increasing difficult to think that it's not.

Many of these concerns can be easily addressed by frank, open, and honest discussion.

 

[Thales]

Bubble, Don't Bubble... I was sharing something that has helped me and others in the hobby.

There are lots of things that science still cannot explain in this universe.... Technology and instrumentation still cannot tell us everything we want to know... especially when it comes to quantum mechanics, quantum physics, and other anomalies this world has...

Public aquariums still do not even know why Nautiluses cannot BREED or THRIVE in captivity.
It's not Temperature, Pressure, Water Chemistry, Lighting, or Diet. Scientists and Marinebiologists should be able to figure this one out.

If you think everything to figure out has been figured out, please think again. Science changes daily based on new observations, anomalies, findings, and testing...

What is this addressing? Who said anywhere that anyone has everything figured out? I don't understand what the relevance of this is.

Positive reaction to their systems... Those instances are documented as well...
Faster frag healing and growth in our systems that we bubble versus the ones we don't...

Where is this documentation? You keep alluding to it, but never share it. How do you know the frags head faster? how do you know they grew faster?

 

[Thales]

Ok. do we need to first define the size of the bubbles we are generating. Don't know how to count bubbles in 3D tank dimensions... That way we could tally up percentage on average between start time and stop time...

No you don't. You can just track the effects. pH is the super easy one. Start there.

Once again, there are so many variables it's going to be tough. Not everyone has a lab setup that is in a controlled environment that's dust free, mold free, pollen free, bacteria free...
:(

I don't understand why you keep trying to make this harder than it is. No one is asking at this point for anything that sophisticated.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

No you don't. You can just track the effects. pH is the super easy one. Start there.



I don't understand why you keep trying to make this harder than it is. No one is asking at this point for anything that sophisticated.

Because it's in the nature of working in process controls. In controls, my job is to analyze and to think of all effecting variables such as particle size, then program around it or develop a solution to the probability of inconsistency...

Thank you, though.