Microbacter purple

[collinnelson9]

Good after noon y’all, just saw brightwell just released microbacter purple. I see it will feed your corals while adding beneficial bacteria. Just wondering if anyone got there hands on it and see if there is any long term benefits down the road.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Hi Kenneth,

First of all, thank you for taking the time to discuss your product and offer insights. Its is very appreciated, and one of the reasons I use your PNS product as part of my daily regimen. I find it works well to manage my PO4 with no need for GFO, etc.

I am curious about what you said regarding BW-PM. Of course, BW offers no information on the contents of their products. Neither does Dr. Tims. For that reason I avoid them. But, you clearly stated that BW-PM contains Rhodopseudomonas palustris since you provide the bacteria to them. I'm surprised you could even reveal that without violating some NDA, but assuming it is true, can you help me understand which product might be better if the main goal is PO4 control and not necessarily coral feeding?

Also, I noticed the BW product has no odor indicating that this might be a very stable dormant bottle, vs yours which is clearly active and alive. Can you explain why and to what benefit? Thanks Kenneth!

Hi, and thank you! All I know is that we provide our own R. palustris to them (BW), and that our cultures make up a mere portion of the blend in that product. They declined my offer to assist in developing Purple M in favor of keeping its contents strictly secret (fair enough). That includes, by the way, all production and packaging procedures, which certainly are also important.

For example, the characteristic PNSB culture odors, which are for the most part derived from sulfides, may be removed through various abiotic treatments (least harmful of these to the PNSB is aeration, excluding a couple options that would be unfeasible in terms of production cost). There are some biotic means of odor mitigation that might serve that purpose, such as the use of antibiotics to specifically target sulfate-reducing bacteria hitchhikers in the inoculum. If they’ve developed a process to remove these and other malodorous compounds without compromising the efficacy of the PNSB or using any undesirable additives, I applaud the achievement. But I speculate along with the rest of you.

With respect to PO4 control, the overall best choice will be the product that provides the highest density of viable polyphosphate accumulating bacteria (or, I guess, much larger doses of a low-density alternative). In all the products discussed here, this will be restricted practically to PNSB. Not all PNSB species perform polyphosphate accumulation (PA); all three PNSB species listed in PNS ProBio can perform PA. One interesting aspect about density…Be cautious of the color you’re seeing. I’m admittedly only judging from a product image, but from the picture of one product made overseas, my reasonably well-trained eye suggests that it may have had dyes added (seriously! haha). More recently, two individuals I know, who are pretty familiar with PNSB, have both expressed similar suspicions to me about yet another product. Might sound crazy, but we’ve unfortunately seen worse in our hobby/industry before.

There may be some other considerations here. Think also about the contribution of rest media (i.e., the left over culture medium, including wastes). Imbalanced growth media can leave substantial quantities of undesirable substances behind in the finished product, including DOM, trace elements, and certainly nutrients. Phosphorus in particular is commonly overdosed in lab recipes in order to maximize cell density, without any regard for residual PO4. So, someone sourcing their live cultures from a lab supply to include in an aquarium product--especially one that is nominally formulated to control nutrients--is truly concocting a self-defeating potion haha. Same with anyone using excessively rich media to push cell density. But wait, there's more…

In addition to illuminated/anaerobic conditions and long incubation periods (stationary growth phase), phosphorus starvation is necessary to induce PA in PNSB. MEANING if you obtain a crap product from an inexperienced cultivator, you’re not only potentially adding PO4 to your system, but (perhaps even more importantly) the capacity of those bacteria to sequester PO4 has gone from extraordinary to ordinary. That latter point is especially compelling when you consider that R. palustris, for example, when grown under the appropriate conditions, can accumulate phosphorus up to 13%-15% of its cell dry weight (!).

In sum, the best microbial product for PO4 management in aquaria, in my opinion, is the one that:

• Contains PNSB species that are known to be capable of polyphosphate accumulation.
• Contains a multi-species consortium of PNSB (enhanced ability to occupy multiple niches within the aquarium environment), thereby enhancing/prolonging nutrient sequestration.
• Features the highest density of viable PNSB cells–more living cells remove more phosphate, dead cells remove no phosphate.
• Is optimized for health and viability of PNSB (e.g., rich in endogenous energy stores such as polyhydroxybutyrate)--more robust cells are more capable of surviving the abrupt transition to an aquarium environment, and more living cells remove more phosphate.
• Is produced under a specific set of conditions (e.g., phosphorus starvation) that together promote production of kinases responsible for triggering polyphosphate accumulation.
• Does NOT contain excess phosphorus in the rest medium.

These are points that I list as important, from my perspective, for this specific application. They’re not meant to insinuate that any particular product is better than another. I’ll leave it to the consumer to draw their own conclusions after objectively evaluating the performance of our products alongside those of our collaborators, competitors and copycats.

But I do hope this leaves you feeling considerably better informed. Thanks for reaching out, and thanks again for your awesome support!

 

[legionofdoon]

I got some arriving Tuesday I’ll post my progress too

It should take about a week or so. I'm currently dosing small amounts after lights out daily now. Now if only someone would make a bacteria that only targets aptasia.

 

[pooootiqe]

Got my bottle of SB today… smells like a blend of Chinese stinky tofu and century eggs lol.

(This also serves as a warning for those who haven’t tasted these two delicacies)

 

[JeepinReefer21]

I have been using Microbacter Purple since its release. Here are my observations so far.

1. No Smell
2. No reaction from my Montipora (Monti's closed for a couple of hours after Dosing PNS ProBio 100% of the time)
3. Will leave a pink color to the water, verified with a water change days after dosing a 15 gallon tank the recommended dose for a dirty tank (No other PNSB I have dosed has done this)
4. A sample under a microscope at 400x to 1000x showed a few red particles along the edge of the slide cover (Unidentified as of now), and one pinkish cyst-like cell.
5. No rod-shaped pink bacteria were visible at 1000x or higher magnification

I don't know what it's made of. But I do know it is very different than the usual PNSB available on the market.

 

[spicymikey]

Hi, and thank you! All I know is that we provide our own R. palustris to them (BW), and that our cultures make up a mere portion of the blend in that product. They declined my offer to assist in developing Purple M in favor of keeping its contents strictly secret (fair enough). That includes, by the way, all production and packaging procedures, which certainly are also important.

For example, the characteristic PNSB culture odors, which are for the most part derived from sulfides, may be removed through various abiotic treatments (least harmful of these to the PNSB is aeration, excluding a couple options that would be unfeasible in terms of production cost). There are some biotic means of odor mitigation that might serve that purpose, such as the use of antibiotics to specifically target sulfate-reducing bacteria hitchhikers in the inoculum. If they’ve developed a process to remove these and other malodorous compounds without compromising the efficacy of the PNSB or using any undesirable additives, I applaud the achievement. But I speculate along with the rest of you.

With respect to PO4 control, the overall best choice will be the product that provides the highest density of viable polyphosphate accumulating bacteria (or, I guess, much larger doses of a low-density alternative). In all the products discussed here, this will be restricted practically to PNSB. Not all PNSB species perform polyphosphate accumulation (PA); all three PNSB species listed in PNS ProBio can perform PA. One interesting aspect about density…Be cautious of the color you’re seeing. I’m admittedly only judging from a product image, but from the picture of one product made overseas, my reasonably well-trained eye suggests that it may have had dyes added (seriously! haha). More recently, two individuals I know, who are pretty familiar with PNSB, have both expressed similar suspicions to me about yet another product. Might sound crazy, but we’ve unfortunately seen worse in our hobby/industry before.

There may be some other considerations here. Think also about the contribution of rest media (i.e., the left over culture medium, including wastes). Imbalanced growth media can leave substantial quantities of undesirable substances behind in the finished product, including DOM, trace elements, and certainly nutrients. Phosphorus in particular is commonly overdosed in lab recipes in order to maximize cell density, without any regard for residual PO4. So, someone sourcing their live cultures from a lab supply to include in an aquarium product--especially one that is nominally formulated to control nutrients--is truly concocting a self-defeating potion haha. Same with anyone using excessively rich media to push cell density. But wait, there's more…

In addition to illuminated/anaerobic conditions and long incubation periods (stationary growth phase), phosphorus starvation is necessary to induce PA in PNSB. MEANING if you obtain a crap product from an inexperienced cultivator, you’re not only potentially adding PO4 to your system, but (perhaps even more importantly) the capacity of those bacteria to sequester PO4 has gone from extraordinary to ordinary. That latter point is especially compelling when you consider that R. palustris, for example, when grown under the appropriate conditions, can accumulate phosphorus up to 13%-15% of its cell dry weight (!).

In sum, the best microbial product for PO4 management in aquaria, in my opinion, is the one that:

• Contains PNSB species that are known to be capable of polyphosphate accumulation.
• Contains a multi-species consortium of PNSB (enhanced ability to occupy multiple niches within the aquarium environment), thereby enhancing/prolonging nutrient sequestration.
• Features the highest density of viable PNSB cells–more living cells remove more phosphate, dead cells remove no phosphate.
• Is optimized for health and viability of PNSB (e.g., rich in endogenous energy stores such as polyhydroxybutyrate)--more robust cells are more capable of surviving the abrupt transition to an aquarium environment, and more living cells remove more phosphate.
• Is produced under a specific set of conditions (e.g., phosphorus starvation) that together promote production of kinases responsible for triggering polyphosphate accumulation.
• Does NOT contain excess phosphorus in the rest medium.

These are points that I list as important, from my perspective, for this specific application. They’re not meant to insinuate that any particular product is better than another. I’ll leave it to the consumer to draw their own conclusions after objectively evaluating the performance of our products alongside those of our collaborators, competitors and copycats.

But I do hope this leaves you feeling considerably better informed. Thanks for reaching out, and thanks again for your awesome support!

Hi Kenneth,

Thanks for that detailed response! Lots of great information. Also, thanks for the link to that ReefBuilder article. I had NOT seen that article yet with the results of the ACI Coral Farm test. It supports my findings as well. Using your Probio cocktail, with mostly R-Palustris, has given me a measurable and positive result in managing PO4. For what it's worth, I find that 100ml per day in my 400gal mixed reef system (along with Carbon dosing) helps maintain phosphates at an "acceptable" level for me. What is acceptable? 0.15ppm+-. That is not ideal, but then again, I am not a Coral Farmer where growth rate and color means $$. With that goal, using PNS Probio addresses my needs WITHOUT the messy effort of using GFO or the dangers of LC.

As I mentioned in another earlier post, I recently saw the new Brightwell PM product and decided to test it out. I bought 2 liter bottles of it and will begin dosing with it starting this week. I'm finishing up testing with Microlift Special Blend tomorrow and will check the results. Curious to see how these other products fare using the same 100ml per morning dosing schedule. This 400gal system is 4+ years old and very stable. My dosing is mostly automated and I maintain major, minor, and trace elements close to ideal with ICP testing every 8-12 weeks for verification. PO4 is entering and exiting the aquarium constantly, so I will certainly be able to see the effect of these other products within a week or two.

I will share what I experience.

 

[pooootiqe]

I have been using Microbacter Purple since its release. Here are my observations so far.

1. No Smell
2. No reaction from my Montipora (Monti's closed for a couple of hours after Dosing PNS ProBio 100% of the time)
3. Will leave a pink color to the water, verified with a water change days after dosing a 15 gallon tank the recommended dose for a dirty tank (No other PNSB I have dosed has done this)
4. A sample under a microscope at 400x to 1000x showed a few red particles along the edge of the slide cover (Unidentified as of now), and one pinkish cyst-like cell.
5. No rod-shaped pink bacteria were visible at 1000x or higher magnification

I don't know what it's made of. But I do know it is very different than the usual PNSB available on the market.

Thanks for sharing. Sounds like pigments are added in the mix?

Edit: just saw Kennith mentioning the same thing, lol!

 

[JeepinReefer21]

I have been using Microbacter Purple since its release. Here are my observations so far.

1. No Smell
2. No reaction from my Montipora (Monti's closed for a couple of hours after Dosing PNS ProBio 100% of the time)
3. Will leave a pink color to the water, verified with a water change days after dosing a 15 gallon tank the recommended dose for a dirty tank (No other PNSB I have dosed has done this)
4. A sample under a microscope at 400x to 1000x showed a few red particles along the edge of the slide cover (Unidentified as of now), and one pinkish cyst-like cell.
5. No rod-shaped pink bacteria were visible at 1000x or higher magnification

I don't know what it's made of. But I do know it is very different than the usual PNSB available on the market.

Thanks for sharing. Sounds like pigments are added in the mix?

Edit: just saw Kennith mentioning the same thing, lol!

You're welcome! I'm really not in a position to say pigments are or aren't being used. I'm just posting my observations .
I genuinely find this particular broduct fascinating because it's so unlike all the others available. I can say that what ever it is, does seem to control nutrients. But I cannot tie them together as of yet.
I'll be getting some PNS Probio in much to the dismay of my Montis , and I plan on putting that under the scope as well. Who knows what I'll see.

 

[spicymikey]

You're welcome! I'm really not in a position to say pigments are or aren't being used. I'm just posting my observations .
I genuinely find this particular broduct fascinating because it's so unlike all the others available. I can say that what ever it is, does seem to control nutrients. But I cannot tie them together as of yet.
I'll be getting some PNS Probio in much to the dismay of my Montis , and I plan on putting that under the scope as well. Who knows what I'll see.

Hi JeepinReefer21,

I am going to try testing with this new Brightwell product for the first time starting tomorrow. I will see if I notice any persistent pink coloring to the water. Of course the bacteria itself is a dark purple hue so initial dosing would likely cause a color change effect but I have not seen that persist more than a few minutes with the Hydrospace Probio product. If Brightwell is truly putting purple dye in the water to trick people thinking it's more dense than it is, then needless to say that would be a problem. I guess the easiest way to find out would be to pour some through a filter pad, let it dry, and see if the purple hue persists over a period of time even after the bacteria has died and been consumed by other heterotrophic bacteria. If it persists that would be a good indication that this has some non organic dye in the bottle

You stated that it does seem to control nutrients for you. Which nutrients? How did you measure the positive effect? Thanks!

 

[JeepinReefer21]

Hi JeepinReefer21,

I am going to try testing with this Brightwell products for the first time starting tomorrow. I will see if I notice any persistent pink coloring to the water. Of course the bacteria itself is a dark purple hue so initial dosing would likely cause a color change effect but I have not seen that persist more than a few minutes with the Hydrospace product

You stated that it does seem to control nutrients for you. Which nutrients? How did you measure the positive effect? Thanks!

The color I noticed was about 5 days after dosing it into the tank. I did an 8-gallon water change to a 15-gallon Fluval flex. I had never seen that after dosing ProBio, Special Blend or any other bacteria additive. That's why I noted it. Just different.
I noticed the Nitrates decrease 1.3ppm and the Phosphates lower from .15 to .06 when I did the initial dosed in my RS170. That was just one dose, and I tested a few days later. I'm inclined to give the Purple M the credit, but my tank is well established and the Nitrate reduction is well within the natural course of a week. The Phosphate however, that was a big reduction.

 

[pooootiqe]

The color I noticed was about 5 days after dosing it into the tank. I did an 8-gallon water change to a 15-gallon Fluval flex. I had never seen that after dosing ProBio, Special Blend or any other bacteria additive. That's why I noted it. Just different.
I noticed the Nitrates decrease 1.3ppm and the Phosphates lower from .15 to .06 when I did the initial dosed in my RS170. That was just one dose, and I tested a few days later. I'm inclined to give the Purple M the credit, but my tank is well established and the Nitrate reduction is well within the natural course of a week. The Phosphate however, that was a big reduction.

A conspiracy theorist would say the purple dye is to cover the blue hue of lanthanum solution… ;)… jk

 

[JeepinReefer21]

The color I noticed was about 5 days after dosing it into the tank. I did an 8-gallon water change to a 15-gallon Fluval flex. I had never seen that after dosing ProBio, Special Blend or any other bacteria additive. That's why I noted it. Just different.
I noticed the Nitrates decrease 1.3ppm and the Phosphates lower from .15 to .06 when I did the initial dosed in my RS170. That was just one dose, and I tested a few days later. I'm inclined to give the Purple M the credit, but my tank is well established and the Nitrate reduction is well within the natural course of a week. The Phosphate however, that was a big reduction.

A conspiracy theorist would say the purple dye is to cover the blue hue of lanthanum solution… ;)… jk

I have to say, I just re-examined the lower portion of the bottle. I did find motil organisms and some cilliates swimming in the sand like detritus in the bottle. There wear more pink colored particles as well. With clumps of what I would call darker cellular masses.

 

[pooootiqe]

I have to say, I just re-examined the lower portion of the bottle. I did find motil organisms and some cilliates swimming in the sand like detritus in the bottle. There wear more pink colored particles as well. With clumps of what I would call darker cellular masses.

For something that’s supposed to be shelf stable that’s a little alarming to say the least…

 

[spicymikey]

I have to say, I just re-examined the lower portion of the bottle. I did find motil organisms and some cilliates swimming in the sand like detritus in the bottle. There wear more pink colored particles as well. With clumps of what I would call darker cellular masses.

I am admittedly not a bacteriologists, but i can tell you this is actually very normal. This pnsb is a very active bacteria in the bottles, unlike a lot of heterotrophs that can be more easily put into a dormant state.

This stuff on the bottom of the bottle, as well as the rotten smell, is likely just the outcome of metabolic processes carried out by the bacteria after being put into the bottle

 

[pooootiqe]

I don’t think one can see bacteria by eye; unless it’s at very high density, then under strong light it gives a bit of a “shimmer”.

 

[legionofdoon]

A conspiracy theorist would say the purple dye is to cover the blue hue of lanthanum solution… ;)… jk

Lol like Old ladies hiding gray hair.

 

[legionofdoon]

I'll post a picture tomorrow afternoon after the lights have been on of the left side of my tank. I posted a middle right shot last because that was the most recent picture I had. But I want to be truthful about it.

 

[JeepinReefer21]

I don’t think one can see bacteria by eye; unless it’s at very high density, then under strong light it gives a bit of a “shimmer”.

Above 1000x is usually enough for shape and movement. Sometimes staining is required for more detail.

 

[legionofdoon]

Here's the left side pardon the aptasia

 

[David Cher]

i am still waiting for this product out in Asia.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

I just finished a bottle of this purple bacteria, I wanted to try it just to try it. Honestly, I feel like I took $30 out of my pocket and dropped it in tank. I regret it, its just more snake oil IMO