Mimicking Tidal Flow in Our Reef Tanks

[jlanger]

This is an idea I brought up in my local forum last fall.
There was limited discussion and it fell to the wayside during the holiday season.
The following is copies of my original posts outlining my thoughts and ideas.

Originally Posted by jlanger

I would like to open up some discussion on trying to mimic the water flow found on the reef in our own aquariums.
This has been on my mind for a while, but I thought I would open it up to the masses for more insight and ideas.


Abstract:

Ever since EcoTech Marine updated their ReefLink to work with their VorTech water pumps, I have wanted to try and create a program to create a more realistic representation of what the water flow is actually like on the reefs.
EcoTech Marine has done their research and have created a couple of modes to simulate what flow is like on the reefs.
I have been doing quite a bit of reading and researching of what actually happens during the cycles of water flow on the reefs.
Having owned and used the VorTech pumps for four years, I have tried various modes and settings. These pumps do create a very nice random flow in my tank; I'm not complaining. But I still have not found what I am looking for.
I think with this discussion and further research, we can find what I am trying to achieve with my water flow.
And in all actuality, there may be no beneficial effect from all of this; just like running static moon lights every night.


Equipment and Methodology:

I currently use four VorTech water pumps on my 120gal; two MP40's and 2 MP10's. Each MP40 is paired with an MP10 which are located on opposite side of the tank. The pairs are run anti-synched; so the MP40 on the right is synch with the MP10 on the left and vice versa.
I primarily run the pumps using the EcoSmart Tidal Swell Mode. The night before I do water changes, I switch to the EcoSmart Nutrient Transport Mode.

Here's EcoTech's specifications about these two modes.

With the EcoSmart Tidal Swell Mode, the flow pattern will shift from an emphasis on chaotic left-to-right flow direction into a right-to-left flow direction, with periods of calm in between – followed by a great surge of flow at the very end of the cycle.




With the EcoSmart Nutrient Transport Mode, water is circulated in two phases – a wave motion to stir up detritus, and a surging motion to move the detritus into your overflow.



Long ago, I asked EcoTech Marine how long the cycles were for each mode.
Each mode cycles in 2-½ hours; the pulses in the NTM are for 45 minutes and the swelling is for 30 minutes each.

So as I have dabbled with the EcoSmart Live program, I was trying to find a way to create the "perfect" program to mimic the water flow on the reef.
I know many people like to ramp down the flow during the overnight hours. And some people even run all through all options during the course of the day.
To find the program I wanted, I knew I had to do more research.


Research and Findings:

I started my research with books that I already owned; Delbeek and Sprung's "The Reef Aquarium" series and "The Encyclopedia of Modern Coral Reefs". I moved on to various reefing webpages on water flow in reef tanks. On a whim, I expanded my search outside of the aquarium hobby and I stumbled on to a couple of books/papers discussing tidal swells. It wasn't until I started reading about tidal ebb and flood that I knew I found what I was looking for.
This hobby has spent a lot of effort discussing (and selling) the importance of the lunar cycle in respect to lighting, but not enough on the effect of water flow.
I should have figured this out earlier.
When I was running the Vertex Illumina LED fixture over my reef system, it had a lunar cycle for the moonlighting that would ramp up/down in conjunction with the actual lunar cycle.

One book was worth looking into is "The Dynamics of Coastal Models"; particularly the Effect of Changing Water Level on Flow Over Reefs.

In a paper directed at bodysurfing, "Ebb and Flood: The Science of Tides" discusses and details the changing flow of our ocean's water during the lunar cycle. The paper exhibited a couple of interesting graphs that more than reinforced that this was what I was trying to figure out for my tank.

This graph shows the tidal differences during the course of each day over one month.



And this graph shows various tides and their respective levels during a 24 hour period.



Based from these last two resources, I am trying to figure out how I can create a program for my water pumps to mimic these findings.
Using the modes that are available with the VorTechs, there must be a way to create the variable flow of a true tidal ebb and flood within the aquarium.


Criteria:

To achieve a more true tidal swell, I feel that the two EcoSmart Modes need to be combined somehow into one program.

I like the effect from the Tidal Swell Mode of changing the direction of the flow from one side to the other.
But I do not like that the cycle only lasts 2-½ hours and that both pumps run simultaneously.

I like the effect from the EcoSmart Nutrient Transport Mode that creates short bursts of flow that ramp up over time.
But I do not like that the anti-synched pump immediately pushes back against that flow.

The ideal program should create a semidiurnal tide (two high tides and two low tides) in a 24 hour period.


My Ideas and Thoughts:

To keep the effect of water surge, the pumps should run in a pulse mode; maintaining the "lovely" swaying motion of the coral's polyps.

When creating the ebb or flood, only run one pair of pumps at a time. Maybe running both pairs just during the peaks and valleys of high/low tide could create more random flow during the changing of the tide.

As the tides change, the ramping up and down of the pump's flow and pulses increase and decrease with the tide.
In looking at the final graph, when the graphed line is at it's steepest, the flow and pulse would be at it's greatest. When the line starts to level out, the flow and pulse are weaker.

If I had the time, I could create a graphic depicting the above ideas to better clarify my thoughts. Maybe later.
Think of it as almost like combining the two EcoTech graphs into one; pulses that ramp up and down over time against each other.

But I'm still struggling on how to create the more dramatic changes with the lunar cycle; as shown in the "January 2014" graph.
The water flow and pulses would be more dramatic during the new and full moon cycles, and more stable during the half moon phases.

The EcoSmart Live, as far as I now, only works on a daily cycle; not a monthly cycle.
I'm not sure if I had the pumps controlled through a secondary controller, like an Apex, that I might be able to create a monthly cycle.


Discussion:

So after reading through all of this…
Does anyone have any additional thoughts about trying to create a tidal/lunar cycle with the VorTech water pumps?

As I wrote all of this out, many things fell into place for me concerning what I was looking for.
It's just trying to figure out the specific and getting it to work that is still open for discussion.
As like I stated earlier, none of this may have any effect on such a small system.

Thanks for reading.
Thanks for any input.


And this was my second response trying to visual explain my thoughts for a EcoSmart program mimicking tidal flow.

Originally Posted by jlanger

Anyways, here's a quick illustration trying to explain my late night ramblings.



So over a 24 hour period, there will be two cycles by each pair of pumps.
It is hard to tell in this smaller graphic but as the pulses get stronger, they also get longer.
Overlapping the two pumps for a brief time will create the random flow of whirlpools and eddies created during the tidal switch.

So the trick to simulate the lunar cycle would be to change the Max% of the pumps over 28 days.
During the full/new moon phase, the Max% would be greatest; say 80%
And during the half moon phases, the Max% would only be about 40%.

In my illustration above, the orange and blue graphs depict the power and duration of the Vortech pump. The Blue line graph depicts the time and height of the daily tide.
As the tide rushes in/out, I feel the Vortech pumps would run at the set maximum setting for that day. When the tides reach high/low tide, the pumps run at their lowest setting as the water flow begins to transition the other direction.

I have recently synched my Vortech pumps with my Apex WXM Module and Controller, so I may try to figure out a way to achieve something similar to this using the already existing EcoSmart Modes.
I am trying to think if there is a way to use the Seasonal Modes to incorporate the rising/falling maximum settings that correlate with the lunar cycle.

If Ecotech Marine would like to take this into consideration for a new EcoSmart Mode, I would be glad to assist in any way needed.

Thanks for reading through all of this.
And any additional thoughts would be greatly appreciated.​

 

[jlanger]

I've done some looking around at other people's advanced programs for their pumps, and I have a newbie's grasp of the basic language.
I have a couple of theories as to how to start getting close. My problem lies on the lack of modern programming expertise; my proficiency stopped circa 1990.
I found this program on R2R with quite a bit of programming options. I know that that posting is a few years old, but it's a start.

The [first] question I have is where in the Apex Dashboard do you set up the custom modes that are listed at the end; i.e. P100, N100, VOFF,....
And a secondary question, what do the (PF##) stand for and do?

I believe that I will need to create multiple custom modes using the Pulse Mode at various percentages (i.e. 10%, 15%, 20%, ...) to create the rising/falling speed of the pump to create the singular tidal flow arc over a seven hour time period.
And I would create these custom modes to reach the maximum values during the new moon and full moon.
Once a single tidal flow arc is created, I can repeat the program five hours later. And then I can set up the slave pump to run opposite the master pump.
Running a seven hour ramping cycle would allow a half an hour of both pumps running together every six hours to create the random flow of the switch in tidal direction.
*** As of now, I am fine with not trying to program a shorter-longer pulse within the single arc.

Now that a single day of programming is outlined, it's time to create the 14 day half-lunar cycle.
Is there a way to program a looping cycle based on the number of days in the cycle?
So program starts with a day value equalling zero and each 24 hour period adds one to the day value. When the day value equals 14, the program resets to a day value of zero.
With the pumps being initially programmed with the maximum speed limits during the new moon and full moon, is there a way to make each day value a percentage of the maximum speed limit?
So as the days pass from Day 1 to Day 7, the custom mode runs at a falling percentage of the daily program. And as the days pass from Day 8 to Day 14, the custom mode runs at a rising percentage of the daily program.

So back to my limited programming knowledge... I'm trying to figure out if you can run a program (daily cycle) within a program (14 day cycle) using the Apex Controller.
And I will be needing to set up two programs, one for each pump; master pump and slave pump. The same program just offset by six hours.

I know there's plenty to think about and hopefully you can decipher what I'm trying to explain in writing.
I'm excited to see what I(we) can come up with for a Tidal Flow Program for our reef tanks.

Any and all help, thoughts and discussion is greatly appreciated.

 

[RandoReefer]

I'm setting aside some quality reading time to focus on this awesome write up! [emoji4] Thanks for posting!

Now let's get this discussion going! Anyone have some initial thoughts?

Randy
EcoTech Product Test Team

 

[goldy26]

REALLY good idea! I have no programming knowledge so I can't put in any advice there, however I feel like the moon cycle effect could be achieved if you can sync the pumps with the radions. Since the lights have a moon light feature, there must be a way to connect the two through programming. Just shooting from the hip. Hope to see some good posts!

 

[Momo3419]

Do you have any updates on this? Im messing with my mp-4o graph on my apex. I was thinking Maybe having the pulse mode for when the tide is coming in. But other then that Im lost.
correct me if I'm wrong High tide= more flow and low tide= less flow?

 

[tigé21v]

This idea is over the top! I love it. Even if no appreciable results could be observed, it would be cool to be able to say you were able to do it.
Thanks for the links, I tried to find info on this subject, and struck out.
A couple of questions..
Would you need the short pulses in the alternating tides? I thought the tide itself was pretty much similar to a river coming/going- a continuous flow (that does increase/decrease relative to time), with the random flow coming from wave action, which is caused by the winds flowing onto shore. Maybe add a Gyre to your existing setup for the random flow? And have it programmed to slow down at night?
Another area I have unsuccessfully tried to find info on is the temp variances between the tides. It would seem to be that the waters being pushed up with the incoming tide would be cooler than the same water going back out with the tide. What that variance would be, I have no clue. I'm sure there would be more of a variance in a tidal flat in the middle of a sunny afternoon than there would be 20ft down on a reef at night. But again, I think that variance, however slight it may be, could possibly have an impact on coral health and growth. I would think there would be some way to program an Apex to vary the temp on a cycle, even taking into account the time of day/night.
As far as the tide in relation to bringing up/in food- have you looked into this? I know the majority of plankton migrates up at night to feed, but I would think there has to be some that is caught in the incoming tides. It wouldn't be too hard to set a dosing system to coincide with the "incoming" tide, dosing some during the day, and even more at night. I've considered setting up my next tank with.. (here comes the blasphemy) .. an under gravel filter that reverses the flow at night.
(Before anyone chimes in and derails this thread, I am not looking at it as a source of filtration, but as a source of food. My lps all go crazy any time I stir the sandbed. I figure I should be able to use this to my advantage. Not to mention, if done properly, I should be able to avoid any anaerobic zones within the bed.)
Speaking of derailing... Sorry. But this thread is the only one I've seen that seems to be thinking along the same lines as I am.
Have you posted this question over in the Neptune forum? If anyone can figure out how to accomplish this, it would be the gurus over there.

 

[rsav]

Tidal flow can vary depending on channels within the reef and depth of the reef. Trying to mimic tidal flow within such a confined space as an aquarium would not make sense unless you are trying to replicate a specific area of a reef.

Water in the ocean during tidal flows doesnt change universally. In the wild a coral could get rapid outgoing water movement in one direction for an hour, but a coral 2 feet away may receive minimal flow. The only consitent change would be temperature i believe.

 

[iiluisii]

I used a tunze wave box in conjunction with my 2 mp10es. The wavebox is on 24/7 on a nice gentle wave and the mp10s are as follow. See picture below.

 

[DeniseAndy]

I run tidals but do not have vortex or any experience with them. I run tunze and gyro or other tunze using a vortex to program the effects they cause. With a gorg specific tank, the tidal effect has benefited it greatly. Love the movement I get. I will have to read more in depth the article written above and see if my input would even be helpful.

 

[tigé21v]

Tidal flow can vary depending on channels within the reef and depth of the reef. Trying to mimic tidal flow within such a confined space as an aquarium would not make sense unless you are trying to replicate a specific area of a reef.

Water in the ocean during tidal flows doesnt change universally. In the wild a coral could get rapid outgoing water movement in one direction for an hour, but a coral 2 feet away may receive minimal flow. The only consitent change would be temperature i believe.

You also have the effect of being in an enclosed space. The flow from one end to the other would have to vary at different depths (opposite) because of the water movement.

 

[rsav]

I've lived in Florida my whole life and can tell you that tides and currents vary drastically depending on your position. One side of a rock can be ripping and the other side could be stagnant. Plus there are bottlenecks and outflows that are very specific to a location and don't change for years. Fishing guides use tide charts to target specific spots depending on the time and some spots are just 5 feet in diameter. Large tarpon and other fish will school in small pockets during tide changes to avoid wasting energy fighting current. Others use them to ambush baitfish.

The whole point is that replicating tides in a confined aquarium is moot as you can just set water flow to anything and it will be similar to a tide.

 

[jlanger]

A couple of questions..
Would you need the short pulses in the alternating tides? I thought the tide itself was pretty much similar to a river coming/going- a continuous flow (that does increase/decrease relative to time), with the random flow coming from wave action, which is caused by the winds flowing onto shore. Maybe add a Gyre to your existing setup for the random flow? And have it programmed to slow down at night?

Thanks for replying and adding to the discussion.

My thoughts of using the short pulses was keep the random motion of the wave that we see with polyps moving back and forth along with keeping the direction of the tidal flow still coming from one direction.
Yes, the tidal surge is coming/going in a continuous flow from one direction, but during this time there is random flow created by the reef itself. When the water in the tidal flow hits the reef, that water will flow stop going in that direction and be forced back into the flow causing areas of random flow. When the pulse is off, this allows that flow to "relax" for a short time and this would provide relief to the corals from a constant surge in one direction. This is what most people are trying to re-create when the set up the back and forth motion with wave makers and the like.
With my theory, as the pulses get longer and stronger, more and more water is being pushed in the one direction during that phase of the tidal surge. And as those pulses are getting longer, the "off pulse" remains constant (short) so that essentially the column of water is being pushed in one direction during that phase.
I hope that helps explain the thoughts of using pulses.

And about adding a Gyre pump... For me that couldn't happen until they made one without the power cord going into the tank. I suffer from OCD and I do not like having any cords going over the glass and into my tanks; check out my build thread and you'll see.

Another area I have unsuccessfully tried to find info on is the temp variances between the tides. It would seem to be that the waters being pushed up with the incoming tide would be cooler than the same water going back out with the tide. What that variance would be, I have no clue. I'm sure there would be more of a variance in a tidal flat in the middle of a sunny afternoon than there would be 20ft down on a reef at night. But again, I think that variance, however slight it may be, could possibly have an impact on coral health and growth. I would think there would be some way to program an Apex to vary the temp on a cycle, even taking into account the time of day/night.

There is a member of my local club (TCMAS), that has built his own controller (and just about everything else for his system) that uses data from the NOAA's website about tide heights and temperatures. Here's link to his build thread and his methods of mimicking tides.
He has his water flow pumps set to match wave activity and his temps are set to match those on the Hawaiian reefs. I've been over to see his system in action and it is definitely neat to see. And we're both still wondering if this will have any great benefit on our stems; but it's something to keep our minds busy.

As far as the tide in relation to bringing up/in food- have you looked into this? I know the majority of plankton migrates up at night to feed, but I would think there has to be some that is caught in the incoming tides. It wouldn't be too hard to set a dosing system to coincide with the "incoming" tide, dosing some during the day, and even more at night. I've considered setting up my next tank with.. (here comes the blasphemy) .. an under gravel filter that reverses the flow at night.
(Before anyone chimes in and derails this thread, I am not looking at it as a source of filtration, but as a source of food. My lps all go crazy any time I stir the sandbed. I figure I should be able to use this to my advantage. Not to mention, if done properly, I should be able to avoid any anaerobic zones within the bed.)

I have not considered using the tides for feedings. Great idea!
I would think that if a tidal program was running on your system, it would be extremely easy to program a dosing pump to administer a feeding of rotifers and other planktonic foods.

Have you posted this question over in the Neptune forum? If anyone can figure out how to accomplish this, it would be the gurus over there.

In my original thread on the TCMAS forum, a member reached out to the Apex forum and asked about it.

The Question to Apex forum:

"Is there a way to have a baseline daily profile for a Vortech pump and then have the intensity of the whole profile increase each day and then decrease over a 30 day period, mimicking the increase in tide and surge that occurs with lunar cycle?

Any other ideas on how to achieve this would be appreciated."

The Answer:

"Maybe one day but not today . All you can do for now is to set a vortech tidal profile to start and stop in accordance with the lunar cycle .

Alain"

That was just over a year ago, but there hasn't been any follow up with it. And based on some of the discussions I've had with other people about creating a program with the Apex Controller and Vortech water pumps, the controller may not have the capability/flexibilty of doing such a custom cycled program.

As I've stated before, I've been just too busy with work and kids that I haven't had the time to "dive" deep into working on this topic. But I still like to see other people having the same thoughts and ideas of trying to make our little pieces of the ocean seem more like the real thing.
Keep thinking and posting!
Thanks.

 

[jlanger]

Thanks for the replies; all of them.

From the start, I stated that all of this discussion may not make a difference in a home aquarium.
But I also feel that there should be some benefits to incorporating tidal surge as water flow.

If we remove the discussion about trying to create a daily cycle of high tides and low tides, wouldn't the effect of the monthly cycle of the lunar phases still account for further discussion?
Just about every reef lighting manufacturer has incorporated lunar lights and programs into their fixtures. And there have been discussions about how replicating the lunar cycle has benefitted corals in captivity with regards to spawning events. Whether this occurrence is substantiated with the lighting cycles or still gravitational pull from the real moon itself can be debated.
But if lunar lighting cycles are having a positive effect, shouldn't we still try to create a tidal surge based on the effects of the lunar cycle?

As the lunar phases change, the tides themselves change.



The graph above shows that during the new/full moon phases, the tides reach their highest point. During these phases, the water flow inside our tanks would be stronger and more turbulent.
So, is this where we should concentrate our efforts on mimicking the tidal surge in our tanks? Lunar surge, not tidal surge?

 

[reefwiser]

We can never have enough flow in our tanks. Just recently I was having issues with a brown slime algae in my new tank. I had been busy with work and had been wanting to change my powerhead flow in the tank. With the holidays I had time Friday to install an mp10 on the tank. The tank had Two Tunze 6040's on the tank ( IM fusion 40). So I set up the mp10 and had to work 12 hours the next day. When I came home after 12 hours the slime algae was gone. I was surprised that changing flow would be so dramatic. But it changed the flow in the tank enough to break the cycle of the algae. Flow is good and we don't realize how much it effects the problems we deal with in our aquariums until something happens to show you how important it is.

 

[tigé21v]

There was a local guy with a120 or 130 acrylic tank. He had a closed loop 8 or 10 return holes on both the left and right side alternated the flow through a SQUID. He had really impressive growth. A setup similar to that with a couple of variable speed pumps would seem to be ideal for creating something as close to a tide as possible in an aquarium (except for, of course, all those bulkhead fittings that would want to leak eventually. )

 

[tigé21v]

So I have been thinking about this. Does anyone know if it would be possible to use the apex lunar module to control the pump speeds? Possibly create virtual outlets for the pumps and somehow have them tied to the intensity of the light output for the lunar module?

 

[tigé21v]

jlanger,
Maybe take a look at this? (It's way over my head)
https://forum.neptunesystems.com/showthread.php?10633-Tidal-program-for-Vortech-s

 

[SaltMan]

jlanger, you could use multiple "If Sun" or "If Moon" Apex programming statements in the Advanced programming area for each pump and tie them to the rise/set times in the Season Table built into Apex. These are used for lighting but could be used for pumps as well. You create profiles of what you want your VorTechs to do at interval times set by the Season table which would be changing throughout the year. The Season Table is also editable so you could configure rise/set times to match your location.
Have a look at these two threads may be helpful to get you started:
https://forum.neptunesystems.com/showthread.php?2039-jeabo-wp40-program&highlight=multiple+Sun
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/neptune-apex-seasonal-lighting-table-for-ecotech-xr-series.208315/

 

[jlanger]

Thanks for these links guys!
I will try and find some time to look through them.
The "If Moon" statements really have piqued my interest!

I have an additional pair of MP40wQD coming my way so I'll have a total of 4 MP40 pumps that I'll be able to work with; if needed.

 

[slayerhellfire]

I have a mp40 qd, can you set a automatic switch between modes like have the pump cycle threw the modes? I have a apex but can you set it up differently??