Mindstream in the house!

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I read up a little on borate with respect to alkalinity. Should we all be testing for borate? I'm new to this, but I think most people adjust alk using carbonate and no one's ever mentioned borate alkalinity to me. Seems like a build up of it could be quite bad and I've never seen it discussed before. This may be due to my newness to saltwater, or it may be a reality that people aren't talking about it much.

Folks can get it from ICP. I don't consider it very important. :)

It was a bigger issue years ago when Seachem boosted it super high in their salt mix for pH stability, messing with total alk readings and probably causing their advice to maintain 11 dKH (4 meq/L).
 

Bleigh

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Folks can get it from ICP. I don't consider it very important. :)

It was a bigger issue years ago when Seachem boosted it super high in their salt mix for pH stability, messing with total alk readings and probably causing their advice to maintain 11 dKH (4 meq/L).

Your article shows that carbonate and bicarbonate are the main contributors of alk at the ph ranges desired for reef tanks. (approximately 95%+). Why wouldn't calculating carbonate from ph and total alk not give most reefers a reasonable idea of their carbonate alk?

The only way I could imagine that it wouldn't be a relevant number is if their salt had a significant amount of another source of alk, like the Seachem you mentioned. I'm assuming no one is currently doing that, making it moot for most consumer applications. Though, it would become very problematic should a company change their concentrations of those trace minerals without announcing the change. Maybe this is why some people see some differences when they change salts.

Do corals use sources of alk other than carbonate? If so, do you know at what rates relative to carbonate?
 

GoVols

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I read up a little on borate with respect to alkalinity. Should we all be testing for borate? I'm new to this, but I think most people adjust alk using carbonate and no one's ever mentioned borate alkalinity to me. Seems like a build up of it could be quite bad and I've never seen it discussed before. This may be due to my newness to saltwater, or it may be a reality that people aren't talking about it much.

I don't use Seachem salts even their Salinity mix, or their ph buffer 8.3

Borate has always messed with my tests (lol) can't find the endpoint... ;Wacky

They do have some other, very nice products, though.. :)
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Your article shows that carbonate and bicarbonate are the main contributors of alk at the ph ranges desired for reef tanks. (approximately 95%+). Why wouldn't calculating carbonate from ph and total alk not give most reefers a reasonable idea of their carbonate alk?

To do that requires either knowing or assuming the borate level. In general, it isn't worth the effort.
 

Bleigh

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To do that requires either knowing or assuming the borate level. In general, it isn't worth the effort.

For purposes of mindstream though, differences between total alk and carbonate alk are pretty negligible, right? Unless perhaps someone changes salt or the salt manufacture changed it's composition. Am I correct in thinking there's not much real reason to continue regular total alk tests along with a mindstream? Maybe an occasional one to make sure the other ions that can affect total alk haven't suddenly changed concentrations. I just imagine any fluctuations in things that can affect alk, other than carbonates, would be minor over short periods of time and want to make sure that's not an incorrect assumption.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Do corals use sources of alk other than carbonate? If so, do you know at what rates relative to carbonate?

Corals do not need "alkalinity". They need carbonate to deposit calcium carbonate. They likely get it from bicarbonate and spitting out a proton (H+). They may possibly also take up carbonate directly, but that is less likely.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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For purposes of mindstream though, differences between total alk and carbonate alk are pretty negligible, right? Unless perhaps someone changes salt or the salt manufacture changed it's composition. Am I correct in thinking there's not much real reason to continue regular total alk tests along with a mindstream? Maybe an occasional one to make sure the other ions that can affect total alk haven't suddenly changed concentrations. I just imagine any fluctuations in things that can affect alk, other than carbonates, would be minor over short periods of time and want to make sure that's not an incorrect assumption.

I think folks can assume they are nealy the same, and carbonate alk is more useful, if any different.

Even better would be bicarbonate. That's likely what corals directly use, and can be calculated from salinity, pH, and carbonate alk.
 
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What is not linear? Total alkalinity from a titration and carbonate alkalinity from the mindstream or other method are not the same thing, due to borate and a few more minor things contributing to total alkalinity.

There's no reason to prefer total alkalinity over carbonate alkalinity for maintaining a reef tank. But if the difference between 7.0 dKH and 6.9 dKH is significant to you, it is worth your while to understand the difference.
That's what I was getting at by "not linear".

From your comment, I'll just watch for trends and significant changes and not try to relate the two measurements.
 

Bleigh

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That's what I was getting at by "not linear".

From your comment, I'll just watch for trends and significant changes and not try to relate the two measurements.

Yeah. I agree with you. Even if all other trace ions are held equal, I’d expect a somewhat logarithmic curve of carbonate alk (as ph went up) and a exponential increase of total alk. But I may not be thinking about that correctly.

On the other hand, if salt isn’t changed, I’d imagine your carbonate alk to differ about the same from total alk if you’re dosing appropriately. I can’t wait to get one of these to play with all the numbers.
 
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Yeah. I agree with you. Even if all other trace ions are held equal, I’d expect a somewhat logarithmic curve of carbonate alk (as ph went up) and a exponential increase of total alk. But I may not be thinking about that correctly.

On the other hand, if salt isn’t changed, I’d imagine your carbonate alk to differ about the same from total alk if you’re dosing appropriately. I can’t wait to get one of these to play with all the numbers.

Here are some graphs showing the ph v alk and co2 v alk.


5E08C914-B4C0-4711-8CB3-B6330C3B4A64.png
D9533693-7000-43F0-A541-6C2A5F88D507.png
 

Bleigh

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Here are some graphs showing the ph v alk and co2 v alk.


5E08C914-B4C0-4711-8CB3-B6330C3B4A64.png
D9533693-7000-43F0-A541-6C2A5F88D507.png

This is so cool. It’s awesome to see the spikes and lags. Lol. It is weird that I want to put one in the ocean to get that kind of detail? I wonder if a database exists with that level of detail for the ocean.
 

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Hey guys. Just wanted to add. Just got my MS today. And boy am I impressed.
So far it has taken approx half a day to stabilize. Currently .4 dkh from kH Director but levels keep coming down. I am sure by tomorrow will be at par with Director. Other parameters are DEAD ON in comparison to P4 numbers ( at least those that P4 CAN measure )
Will continue updating as the days go by.
Only thing I wish is that a native app would be available instead than a web app. Otherwise 9 out of 10.
Let’s hope it continues to measure consistently
 

ddrueckh

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Hey guys. Just wanted to add. Just got my MS today. And boy am I impressed.
So far it has taken approx half a day to stabilize. Currently .4 dkh from kH Director but levels keep coming down. I am sure by tomorrow will be at par with Director. Other parameters are DEAD ON in comparison to P4 numbers ( at least those that P4 CAN measure )
Will continue updating as the days go by.
Only thing I wish is that a native app would be available instead than a web app. Otherwise 9 out of 10.
Let’s hope it continues to measure consistently
Thanks for the report. I am
Looking forward to your updates.
 

Darrell Brady

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Hey guys. Just wanted to add. Just got my MS today. And boy am I impressed.
So far it has taken approx half a day to stabilize. Currently .4 dkh from kH Director but levels keep coming down. I am sure by tomorrow will be at par with Director. Other parameters are DEAD ON in comparison to P4 numbers ( at least those that P4 CAN measure )
Will continue updating as the days go by.
Only thing I wish is that a native app would be available instead than a web app. Otherwise 9 out of 10.
Let’s hope it continues to measure consistently
when did you put your order in.
 

doggydoc10

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End of June. I was part of the original KickStarter backing way back when.
Happy to update and report levels HAVE stabilized to almost the same as manual measurements including KH Director.

1566265123496.png
 

EmdeReef

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Have you guys seen this?

 

Ernie C

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Thanks to everyone posting their experiences. Maybe I can budget and save to get one by Christmas and before I have to change my probes on my Neptune. Anyone put it in their sump/refugium yet? What happens when coralline algae starts to grow on it? Does it need to be cleaned/maintained to continue to function properly?
 
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